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What's peoples opinion of heavy weapons teams in mech vet squads?
Personally, I don't see the point in using them as the chimera only gets two fire points, which special weapons already use, but I was wondering if anyone else has come up with a way for them to be useful.

I don't see any reason to use them. You probably want to move that unit anyway.

If they ever gave reletless to units riding inside of chimeras, sure. Right now though having to snapshot HW's on a chimera that should be moving every turn is kind of a waste.

Just for the sake of thoroughness, I'm trying to analyze options without my normal Guard preconceived notions. Looking at Infantry Platoon options, at least on Heavy Weapon choice may have changed enough to merit some additional consideration.

The Heavy Bolter. Yes, it's the same price as an Autocannon, and that's just dumb, but it gets that extra shot. The old argument was that the range and strength of the AC made it pretty much always better than the HB. The new Fire on My Target order and the changing meta make the HB a little more valuable, I think. A shooty blob of 3 squads with Heavy Bolters makes a good light-infantry killer. You'd use this sort of squad to clear objectives and small squads manning Quad Guns. It also can hold your own objective (you can plant the HB teams and move lasguns/special weapons into range).

225 points for a triple HB triple plasma, triple bolter blob

Vs. T3 4+
Fire on My Target
9 HB shots ignoring cover: 3.75 wounds,
18 lasgun shots ignoring cover: 2.25 wounds
3 Plasma shots ignoring cover: 1.25 wounds
7.25 total wounds

FRFSRF
9 HB shots = 3.75 wounds out of cover, 1.88 wounds with 4+ cover/1.25 with 3+ cover/ 0.625 with 2+ cover
36 lasgun shots = 4.5 wounds/3 with 3+ cover/1.5 with 2+
3 Plasma Gun shots: 1.25 wounds in the open, 0.625 wounds in 4+ cover, 0.42 wounds in 3+ cover, 0.21 wounds in 2+ cover
Total: 9.5 in the open, 7 in 4+ cover, 4.67 in 3+, 2.04 in 2+ cover

Punisher w/ Heavy Bolters (180 points)
Main Gun + Heavy Bolters
Open: 4.17 + 3.75 = ~8 kills
4+ cover: 4.17 + 1.88 = ~6 kills
3+ cover: 2.78 + 1.25 = ~ 4 kills
2+ cover: 1.39 +0.65 = ~2 kills

Eradicator with Heavy Bolters (140 points)
or
Hellhound (125)

You basically kill most of the models that fit under the template. The Hellhound is reliable, but the Eradicator is tough. Thinking about it this way, you may consider leaving the HB sponsons off the Eradicator and just take your bargain basement AV14 tank.

Conclusions: For digging stuff out of cover, a light infantry platoon doesn't do too badly for a small premium over a Punisher. It may do substantially worse for the points vs. Hellhound or Eradicator, but the performance of those tanks are somewhat more dependent on the displacement of the enemy and luck (for the Eradicator). A platoon based unit for this role can do reasonably well for the points because of the scoring ability, and if the unused Heavy Support or Fast Attack slot is used for some other valuable purpose.

Im thinking about supporting Leman Russ for my army... basic coneption is one backbone blob and few vets and scions in chimeras and tauroxes, Basilisk, Hellhound and (maybe) Vendetta...and now Im thinking about two variants - Vanquisher and Executioner.

First thought was Vanquisher but I have 2 LC in blob, probably another one or two in the remaining infantry, hellhound has MM, Taurox carries missile launcher with kraks...even without Vendetta it seems to me like enough for dedicated anti-tank. And Executioner has 1) amazing turret 2) drops three plasma blasts which seems to me better... but still... Vanquisher with two plasma sponsons... or Executioner with two plasma sponsons and hull LC? Or just plain Executioner? So many questions...

If you're taking just one Russ, , I'd default to either a LC/PC Vanquisher (this one has never let me down) if you need to take out heavy targets, or a 3xHB Exterminator for lighter targets.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Im thinking about supporting Leman Russ for my army... basic coneption is one backbone blob and few vets and scions in chimeras and tauroxes, Basilisk, Hellhound and (maybe) Vendetta...and now Im thinking about two variants - Vanquisher and Executioner.

First thought was Vanquisher but I have 2 LC in blob, probably another one or two in the remaining infantry, hellhound has MM, Taurox carries missile launcher with kraks...even without Vendetta it seems to me like enough for dedicated anti-tank. And Executioner has 1) amazing turret 2) drops three plasma blasts which seems to me better... but still... Vanquisher with two plasma sponsons... or Executioner with two plasma sponsons and hull LC? Or just plain Executioner? So many questions...

I don't think the Vanquisher synergizes well with the plasma sponsons. Sure it will help you against terminators & light vehicles, but your Lascannon & main gun will deal with those just fine. Throw in the extra cost and gets hot chance, I feel the Multi-melta is a more solid choice. The meltas give your more AP2 like the plasma, but are cheaper, higher-strength, and hit more reliably than a scattering small blast. Plus the melta will ID T4 models while the plasma will not.

For Leman Russ tanks, what do you think about pairing a Pasknisher (2x MM, HB) with an Eradicator (3x HB) for HQ and then taking a Vanquisher (LC, 2x MM) in HS?

The Pasknisher and Eradicator can either chew through infantry or split fire to allow the Pasknisher to break open transports and the Eradicator to kill the contents.

The Vanquisher is then very simply antitank, designed to deal with higher AV targets or targets at longer range.

koooaei wrote:Power weapons have become better taking into consideration easy access to Zealot and prescience. I think it justifies this small price increase.

Umm, but priests already gave out rerolls to hit because they had Hatred. The only difference Zealot gives is fearless. Meanwhile, prescience only lets you reroll failed hits, which priests have always been able to do, and without a psychic check.

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
What's peoples opinion of heavy weapons teams in mech vet squads?

Mechvets are still a defensive weapon - driving up to whatever is threatening something else and then spilling a bunch of short-range special weapons on them.

Heavy weapons, meanwhile, give the mechvet squad something to do if your opponent isn't racing CC units towards your russes (or whatever). I used to give my mechvets lascannons, and I still would.

Biophysical wrote:The old argument was that the range and strength of the AC made it pretty much always better than the HB.

Well, the range wasn't so much of a deal, as it was would you rather have +2S or +1A. The fact that you were more likely to damage vehicles made that +2S better.

That advantage did get diluted a little bit with 6th ed's switch to hull points, but it wasn't enough - you still needed more of a reason to take that extra shot. That extra reason which you now have - it works better with orders.

Heavy bolters, for example make better use of monster hunters, as it makes the heavy bolter and autocannon basically the same against most monstrous creatures. They're also more likely to force a pinning check with the pinning order, and they're more likely to be able to put a S5 Ap4 precise shot on a meltagunner or a banner/icon bearer, or whatever.

I was just looking at denying cover, but you make a good point about the other orders also. Combined with an increased prevalence of Xenos, I might start running them more often in infantry squads.

In addition, I think the 6th ed movement rules helped Heavy Bolters in a way I never really noticed. They have pretty much the same target as lasguns, so you want to move to get the lasguns in range. Previously, that meat a turn of giving up HB shots to get your lasguns in position. Now, you can move most of the lasguns and special weapons to be in range of the front of your opponent's deployment zone and keep the HB teams standing still to put your shots out first turn. Now from the get-go everybody can fire.

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
What's peoples opinion of heavy weapons teams in mech vet squads?
Personally, I don't see the point in using them as the chimera only gets two fire points, which special weapons already use, but I was wondering if anyone else has come up with a way for them to be useful.

I think you should always look at the Chimera as a temporary boost for mech-vets, not a permanent feature. They are too easily blown up to build around them. Whether they will have any use for a Heavy weapon once they are on foot is another question, but I wouldn't dismiss anything on the basis that you can't use it in the Chimera.

You can use a heavy weapon from a chimera, though.

Back in 4th ed, my favorite chimera setup was 2x heavy bolters + heavy stubber + PIS with grenade launcher and heavy bolter. It was my little dakka box.

Of course, now we have punishers, but I digress...

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
For Leman Russ tanks, what do you think about pairing a Pasknisher (2x MM, HB) with an Eradicator (3x HB) for HQ and then taking a Vanquisher (LC, 2x MM) in HS?

The Pasknisher and Eradicator can either chew through infantry or split fire to allow the Pasknisher to break open transports and the Eradicator to kill the contents.

The Vanquisher is then very simply antitank, designed to deal with higher AV targets or targets at longer range.

You can't shoot at the contents of a transport with the rest of the unit because the attacks happen at the same time.

Yeah, and that's really, really, REALLY important.

If someone declares they're using PotMS, you have to make sure that they declare both targets before they make their first die roll.

You can't roll against your primary target, whiff horribly, and then say "well, I guess I'll shoot my PotMS at it too". The shooting happens simultaneously, not sequentially.

So, is there any purpose to the Taurox\Prime or would I be better served by a Chimera?

Since Pask is a character is there any reason to think that he doesn't benefit from precision shot?

With a prescienced buffed punisher I'm thinking he might be perfect for taking out otherwise hard to reach characters (but themselves squishy) in deathstars such as grimoire holders or tigarius.

He can do that, but keep in mind ICs get a 2+ LoS! If you twin link the punisher's gun and go full HB an heavy stubber you still only get 4-5 precise shots mostly at AP -. Good for making sure special weapons die though.

Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!

interesting...

Well, both Pask and the normal commander are characters. Not Independent, but characters nonetheless.

Interesting indeed.

I have no clue how normal character rules would apply.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!

interesting...

LOS! requires a wound, and vehicles cannot be wounded.

touche

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!

interesting...

LOS! requires a wound, and vehicles cannot be wounded.

But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.

Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.

So I got a game in with my buddy who runs Ravenwing. My list consisted of two melta vet squads, a plasma command squad, and three executioners with hull heavy bolters. Oh, and a single Primaris running prescience.

I had three chimeras and three russes with a lot of AP2, where he had two 6-man squads, a three man squad, a single attack multi-melta bike, a typhoon speeder and Sammy.

I eeked out a win, with neither of us grabbing any objectives and me coming out with Slay the warlord and First blood, while he got Linebreaker. Game ended with his single remaining biker in CC with my company commander, and one untouched Russ. Three models on the table.

As for the plasma boats, I don't run sponsons as an aesthetic choice, and the hull heavy bolter was there because its glued in, but I was pleasantly surprised. Prescience helped mitigate what would have undoubtedly been a few extra gets hot rolls, and in the end, only ended up stripping two HPs; one from two different russes.

They did most of the heavy lifting that game, and I was reminded of the pitfalls of small blasts against an opponent spread out or conga lined. Most of my shots were doing only 1 wound each time, but it worked out okay considering his low body count.

Mechvets feel mostly the same, though the lack of fire points hurt in one or two occasions, forcing me to get out and brave some bolter rounds. The orders would have been nice if I passed any of my rolls late game. I also rolled perils on turn 1; my first time ever using a psychic power in my history of 40k and I roll perils right off the bat. The psyker recovered and went on to cast Prescience successfully for the next four turns.

All in all, I was pleased with how my list performed. I have now officially sold my entire army and re-building from the ground up, so I'm excited to build exactly what I want for this book.

I would recommend always bringing at least one prescience slave for the opportunities it affords you, and the Executioner without sponsons is fairly survivable, especially with prescience. I'd probably run hull lascannons though if I did it again.

 tomjoad wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!

interesting...

LOS! requires a wound, and vehicles cannot be wounded.

But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.

Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.

Maybe. If they were in fast vehicles I could totally see it. In heavies I have visions of Ships of the Line in PotBS maneuvering to force the enemy to split their firepower, but I think that's better represented by normal movement and using the other tank to block shots.

 tomjoad wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Wait, if Pask is a character, that means his russ gets a 4+ LoS!

interesting...

LOS! requires a wound, and vehicles cannot be wounded.

But that get's into the arena of whether or not Ignores Cover should work v vehicles, and most people seem to agree that it does now.

Still, from a Forging the Narrative view point, being able to LOS with Pask DOES seem mighty silly.

Most people agree on it from a HYWPI perspective, myself included, with regards to ignores cover, but very few think so from a RAW perspective. I would suggest viewing the AM thread in YMDC for this though.

Was th at psyker ML1?

Mavnas wrote:
Was th at psyker ML1?

In reference to my post?

Yes.

 Blacksails wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Was th at psyker ML1?

In reference to my post?

Yes.

Seems like an inquisitor is still much better unless you're taking ML2. Higher ld, extra wound, better armor, and doesn't get executed by commissars.

Mavnas wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Was th at psyker ML1?

In reference to my post?

Yes.

Seems like an inquisitor is still much better unless you're taking ML2. Higher ld, extra wound, better armor, and doesn't get executed by commissars.

If we're talking purely competitive, sure.

I don't want to bring allies though. I don't want to shell out for a (legal) Inquisition book just to bring a slightly better option, when I can stay in-book for largely the same effect. Its also less to carry around, the references are on one page, and there's no confusion for my opponent.

Probably been pointed out before, but tank commanders being characters means they can make precision shots. Pask in a Punisher with all the bolters would be rolling on average just under five sixes a turn.