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insaniak wrote: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only discussion amongst friends...
I'm looking forwards to 8th edition, where we'll just put all our models on the table, come up with a background story explaining why they would fight, and then talk about all the cool things that would happen in that battle, and then talk about whether Superman could beat Iron Man, and then talk about how cool it would be if Iron Man was in 40K, and then discuss whether Iron Man would have beaten either of our armies, and then decide that Iron Man is the winner and pack up and go home!
No need for those pesky 'rules' getting in the way of having fun.
So, I'm curious. Does this mean that 40k ceases to be a wargame? If this is Jervis' design philosophy which governs and guides the tabletop experience, there is no real wargame here. This is in fact a role playing game with nice models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/29 21:47:11
I'm looking forwards to 8th edition, where we'll just put all our models on the table, come up with a background story explaining why they would fight, and then talk about all the cool things that would happen in that battle, and then talk about whether Superman could beat Iron Man, and then talk about how cool it would be if Iron Man was in 40K, and then discuss whether Iron Man would have beaten either of our armies, and then decide that Iron Man is the winner and pack up and go home!
Sounds like a normal day on dakka
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
I am going to read your review to learn if I want to get the new rules. One way or another. Likely another.
Which was the reason I started writing them: because I kept seeing people complain they were tired of buying stuff blind.
See, that is why you need to start Warmachine. So I can also get reviews on Warmachine stuff !
(Kidding, actually it is quite easy to get an idea of the profile of a model on the internet, and all the books are available at my FLGS to skim through before buying them)
He's said in the past he didn't like the aesthetics of Warmachine and the fact in his area I guess most of them are disgruntled 40k players so were rather vehement about how much 40k sucks and how much better Warmachine is. At least Clockwork seems to recognized that 40k has issues, although he seems overall happy with it. More than what can be said about some others here who seem to think 40k can do no wrong.
I am going to read your review to learn if I want to get the new rules. One way or another. Likely another.
Which was the reason I started writing them: because I kept seeing people complain they were tired of buying stuff blind.
See, that is why you need to start Warmachine. So I can also get reviews on Warmachine stuff !
(Kidding, actually it is quite easy to get an idea of the profile of a model on the internet, and all the books are available at my FLGS to skim through before buying them)
He's said in the past he didn't like the aesthetics of Warmachine and the fact in his area I guess most of them are disgruntled 40k players so were rather vehement about how much 40k sucks and how much better Warmachine is. At least Clockwork seems to recognized that 40k has issues, although he seems overall happy with it. More than what can be said about some others here who seem to think 40k can do no wrong.
Actually locally the majority of the Warmachine players also play 40k and/or Fantasy. It's mostly the W/H players I've run into online who are disgruntled and try badgering me into playing.
And yes 40k has issues. I was actually planning on taking every major grievance about the codexes I could find and send them into the rules team during the interim period between finals and my summer classes because I really do want the game to get better even if it means throwing rocks with notes tied to them through the window on GW's Ivory Tower to do it. Previously I'd sent in a twenty page document of suggested changes with notes for the Sisters codex to Phil Kelly, believe me I'm crazy enough to do something to that scale again.
I probably should get more candy to send, but not chocolate this time so it doesn't melt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll still be doing the big thick packet of proposed changes to GW just sans core rules if we do get a new edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 20:20:31
Herzlos wrote: I agree; this does seem like a cash grab (it's not even 2 years since the last one, and it's been a consisten 4-year cycle since starting), especially since it launches the weekend before the financial year.
I seem to remember that 6th edition was supposed to herald the beginning of a longer edition cycle...
This is actually fantastic news, if it's true. I'm loving 8th edition Fantasy now, so more years of that would be great. I've no major qualms with 6th ed. 40k, but an overhaul would indeed be nice.
I just had a thought.
Wasn't the 6th edition BRB released in July of 2012? That would be the fiscal year that directly precedes the current fiscal year that we are in. It's a little confusing because their fiscal year doesn't jibe with the calendar year, but trust me that's what they did. They will have put out the 7th ed. rule book in the year following the year that saw the release of 6th.
So there may be some credence to the thought that GW just may release new BRB's annually. Releasing editions of core rule books in concurrent years is not a good sign.
gorgon wrote: What if instead of saying "homina, homina, homina" they tell you to "get the feth out of my store if you don't like it"?
Ah, good question!
Glad you paid attention to the details as "homina", it is a corporate store not "theirs" or a franchise.
Swearing at customers would be even better, I have managed in separate incidents to get five people fired who were acting like bullies... I do not let things like that pass.
I actually smile when people get all unreasonable like that, I have other hobbies too...
I know that you think that speaks well of you, but it really doesn't.
You would be surprised the damage people in the wrong position "of power" can do.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke" Been on this round planet for a while and found through experience that turning the other cheek gets it slapped too and then they are thinking of slapping others... make it stop.
I hold people accountable for their actions, those five people were nasty pieces of work and were fired on the merits of their actions so think a little further.
So how does this not speak well of me?
Say one person I helped get rid of, they fired over 10 people because it gave them the giggles to do it? Felt pretty good about that one.
Abuse of authority without the maturity and responsibility to care for those who report to you or your customers is not only reprehensible but short sighted.
So GW has a responsibility to it's shareholders to pay them but they in turn need to ensure the supply of money is guaranteed so they have to provide to customer needs to get their money. The need of this one manager to meet quotas are preventing her from seeing the needs of her customers to create a relaxed "leisure" environment rather than this farce.
It then falls to the bunch of us who genuinely care to be the ambassadors for this hobby try to clean up the mess of business decisions with little regard to customer.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
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There is nothing bad about copying a successful strategy, especially if it is well liked by the customers.
GW is desperate. They're copying Privateer press's advancing story line as books are released.
?? Granted I don't buy any digital releases or not-optional cuz we want to sell MOAR supplements like escalation but at least in the codex books I buy the story line since 3rd edition has advanced less in years than I have while playing it. Did I miss some major development? Or is my sarcasm detector set too low?
Neither, I believe that GW is copying PP style of advancing story lines as books come out. Copying something that works rather then producing something that works. Its neither sarcasm or anything else. I doubt that GW will do it as well as PP can because the story in 40k CANT advance.
Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...
Really, at this point I don't know what is coming: only thing is sure that new rulebook will be out, but no idea what it contains. So I'll reserve my judgement and possible outrage until facts are out.
If it's (as I suspect) merely updated 6th edition rulebook with Escalation etc rules thrown in, then meh.
If it's "6.5th edition" with worst bugs of 6th edition fixed but old rulebooks still compatible, then yay!
If it is truly all-new 7th edition with new set of bugs and imbalances, then boo!
The question that keeps popping into my mind is why do we have to guess what's coming up. Does GW not have faith in their products? If they do then why hide everything? Why not show a little transparency. Other game companies will tell you what's coming up months in advance. So why not GW?
Solo wrote: The question that keeps popping into my mind is why do we have to guess what's coming up. Does GW not have faith in their products? If they do then why hide everything? Why not show a little transparency. Other game companies will tell you what's coming up months in advance. So why not GW?
Got to sell them products before they become worthless. Can't let you know that your purchase won't be worth dirt in two months, because then you wouldn't buy it!
Have we got a rundown of what GW is thinking, due too the leak/rumour.
Or are all these just wish listing.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
As "buying GW models" is the hobby as opposed to actually playing games with them the new rules for 7th edition will contain the following:
Each unopened box of GW models you place next to the table with a valid GW receipt earns you +10VP at the end of the game (+20VP if they belong to a different army than the one you are playing) (+30VP if they are for Fantasy) (+100VP if they are LoTR or Hobbit).
If you actually opened and built the models but still have a valid GW receipt then you get +1VP per box. (+2/ + 3 +10VP as per the categories above). Why are you actually playing with the models?
If your opponent can prove you bought the models 2nd hand then you roll 2D6 + 10 and remove that many eBayed models at the start of the battle.
Honestly I dont find the price of the books to be that bad. I get some much more enjoyment per dollar from my GW books than I do anything else really. It is worth it to me even if it only lasts for one year and then they update it. But then again I am also going all digital and have no problem with the subscription model as long as there is something actually coming from it.
I mean I have spent 2-3 times the cost of a Rulebook on a book I barely used. Honestly I cant wait to get the digital version of this book now that I am going all digital.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 22:08:33
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
I think they may not want to say anything early because of how it affects people like me. I hear that a new edition/update or whatever is coming out in a month or two I stop buying things so I can see what comes of the update. I don't want to go out and buy a new unity only to find it worthless due to new rules.
So it's in GW's best interest to keep things quiet so that people like me continue to buy things for the next month or two instead of holding off to see what the new edition brings.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I think they may not want to say anything early because of how it affects people like me. I hear that a new edition/update or whatever is coming out in a month or two I stop buying things so I can see what comes of the update. I don't want to go out and buy a new unity only to find it worthless due to new rules.
So it's in GW's best interest to keep things quiet so that people like me continue to buy things for the next month or two instead of holding off to see what the new edition brings.
Just my two teef.
By "people like you" I assume you mean "reasonable consumers".
Leth wrote: Honestly I dont find the price of the books to be that bad. I get some much more enjoyment per dollar from my GW books than I do anything else really. It is worth it to me even if it only lasts for one year and then they update it. But then again I am also going all digital and have no problem with the subscription model as long as there is something actually coming from it.
I mean I have spent 2-3 times the cost of a Rulebook on a book I barely used. Honestly I cant wait to get the digital version of this book now that I am going all digital.
Totally agree with you. I spend thousands of dollars each years on models. Buying a rule book every two years is certainly not the most expensive part of this hobby and I am the kind of guy who likes change for the fun of it. With that said, I like the base rules for 6th edition. I just don't like what they did with the allies matrix,some codexes and the formations/dataslates supplements.
On the other hands, i would be ok with a rule set that doesn't change often if they just play tested their stuff and made all codexes viable with every units balanced and usable. From MPOV instead of forcing a new BRB in the throats of all of the player base. If they just made that they would sell a gak load of models instead of rule books.
Also my two cents
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 22:27:16
Loopstah wrote: As "buying GW models" is the hobby as opposed to actually playing games with them the new rules for 7th edition will contain the following:
Each unopened box of GW models you place next to the table with a valid GW receipt earns you +10VP at the end of the game (+20VP if they belong to a different army than the one you are playing) (+30VP if they are for Fantasy) (+100VP if they are LoTR or Hobbit).
If you actually opened and built the models but still have a valid GW receipt then you get +1VP per box. (+2/ + 3 +10VP as per the categories above). Why are you actually playing with the models?
If your opponent can prove you bought the models 2nd hand then you roll 2D6 + 10 and remove that many eBayed models at the start of the battle.
I may never stop laughing...........
Wood Elves: 2400 pts
Tau & Gue'vesa (IG): 9000 pts Chaos Daemons 3500pts Fantasy
On one hand I'm looking forward to new rules. Mainly because I'm happy to throw disposable cash at them to get a consolidated rule book, and at the same time drink in the seething this will produce amongst the naysayers and local negative Nellies (grimtuff, love ya man)
But as a tau player, it's potentially a big nerf to my main army.
I think overall I'll welcome it for the lolz, I can always play more bloodbowl
Solo wrote: The question that keeps popping into my mind is why do we have to guess what's coming up. Does GW not have faith in their products? If they do then why hide everything? Why not show a little transparency. Other game companies will tell you what's coming up months in advance. So why not GW?
Because after extensive beta-testing, GW still has to sort out all the excellent suggestions by the community
the community at large does a lot of grumbling>
I enjoy the game. Sure it has problems but its still fun for me. I have not played a mini's game that holds quite the same appeal for me. I just hope that they improve the rules set.
ausYenLoWang wrote: and im very sorry but as someone who like to field things, if something like allies becomes optional, when you play a PUG that means jo blogs can do a big nahh cant use that.
Er... they can do that now.
Nobody is ever obligated to play against you.
yes but it limits the piss poor excuses that they can come up with. if you flat out dont wnat to play me fine, just done make up some terrible arbitary excuse, and tahts what the whole NO fw, No escalation, etc etc thing is
quickfuze wrote: What in the world are you talking about here? 40K doesn't use a percentage based system and you can get either of those formations into MUCH smaller games. Or are you saying that they will be addressed in the new edition IF they go to percentage based like WHFB?
**** Note, "Sweep Attack" is a new thing, and not the same thing as a sweeping advance. Movement: Run: D6 or 2D6 for Flying Monstrous Creatures that are Swooping. Consolidations: 2D6 pick one, but you only consolidate on your turn. You can charge with your consolidation move. Opponent can overwatch. You only get to fight once per turn, so if you consolidate into a new combat you don’t get to fight, unless your fist combat didn’t fight (opponent flees). Retreats: 6 + D6 Charge: 2D6, not affected by difficult terrain. Move through Difficult: 2D6 pick one. Charge through Difficult: 2D6 (The same, but -2 iniative).
Reserves: Coming in from Reserves: If there is no enemy in 24” of a particular table edge, units from reserve that use this edge to enter the table can march an additional 12” Flyers have the “Patient Hunter” special rule which means they can choose to stay in ongoing reserves.
Assault: Flee: You can chose to immediately lose combat after Hammer of Wrath, before any blows are struck. Iniative roll off as if you had lost combat. If you win, you do a normal Retreat. If you lose, the unit is destroyed. It happens before pile-ins. Overwatch: Must win or tie an iniative roll off to overwatch. Cannot overwatch if Gone to Ground or Pinned. Charge through Cover: -2 to initiative unless assault grenades or unit being assaulted has Gone to Ground or been Pinned. Initiative: All models strike at their common Initiative unless they are in a Challenge, or are using Unwieldy weapons like power fists. If a unit has 3 Power Fists, and 2 Chainswords they all strike at Initiative 1. Hammer of Wrath: Counts as part of combat resolution. Assaulting Vehicles and Buildings: If the vehicle doesn’t have a WS (walker), then you Sweep Attack them rather than Assault them.
Psychic Powers: Most happen at the end of the movement phase rather than the start. You have to roll for Warp charges like fantasy (complexity 4?) Psychic powers do not require line of sight.
Unit Types: Jump Infantry: Can use jump packs in all phases. If In difficult, and you use Jump pack, must take dangerous terrain test. Jump Packs in assault give HOW but not Rerolls. Chariots: can Sweep Attack Bikes: can Sweep Attack Vehicles: D6 S6 Hammer of Wrath and have Sweep Attack which seems to replace Tank Shock. Walkers do D6 S:Unit Hammer of Wrath. “Death or Glory” against vehicle sweep attacks mean all models in unit Snapshoot at rear armor, or all models within 3” do CC attacks against rear armor. Must take fear test or WS:1. If they fail to stop the vehicle, then they take 2D6 S6 Hammer of Wrath. Only get cover saves against other vehicles. Light Walkers: Only do 1 Hammer of Wrath. I’m thinking Killa Kans, Scout Sentinal, War Walkers. Swarms: Take D3 wounds to Template weapons (flamers).
Special Rules: Fleet add an extra D6, and can discard a D6 in all random moves. No Rerolls. Move through cover, and you ignore the effects of Difficult Terrain (6” move, no iniative penalty for assault), but not Dangerous. Shrouded: -2 to BS Stealth: +1 to Cover Fearless: Cannot chose to Flee Preferred Enemy: +1 to hit for both Melee and Shooting. Bulky: gives Hammer of Wrath. Hit and Run: Gives Sweep Attack, cannot leave combat. Sweep Attack: Close combat attack in the movement phase can only hit ground targets, and can be hit back. Pause during movement, cannot be within 1”. Any model within 3” can attack, and then finish movement. No Pile-ins allowed. Can be part of a Run Move. You can still shoot after a Sweep Attack. Does include Hammer of Wrath. Vector Strike: D6 S:Unit AP:- auto hits. Hits Rear Armor. Swooping must pass within 3” of model being vector strike (no longer have to pass over). Does not count as shooting a weapon. All hits are precision hits. Look Out Sir: On a 2+ the next closest model takes the wounds. Only 1 Look Out Sir roll for all allocated wounds. Look Out Sir is available to all models with special weapons. Regeneration: 4+ to recover a wound. Grants Feel No Pain.
Other Rules: Snapshooting: -3 BS. High BS: No Rerolls for BS > 6. 1 always misses, 6 always hits.
FOC: HQ: 0-25%, must have 1 warlord Elite: 0-25% Troops: 20-75% Fast Attack: 0-25% Heavy Support: 0-25% Secondary Detachments: 0-25%, it includes Allies, Fortifications, Formations, Lords of War and can also include units from your primary codex. You can have 3, but must pick one after rolling for game, deployment and first turn. The player who wins first turn must select first. See example below. Allies: Allies are part of the Secondary Detachment, but count in Primary FOC. They do not have a troop or HQ limit, and you must have only 1 ally per Secondary detachment, but you can take formations from other allies. Fortifications: Fortifications are part of the Secondary Detachment. Formations: Formations are part of the Secondary Detachment, and don’t count in the Primary FOC. Lords of War: If one player brings a Lord of war and the other player does not, the first player must declare his Secondary Detachment first, and the opponent has a chance to bring fourth Secondary Detachment. Any Heavy Support in this special Secondary Detachment do not count against the Heavy Support Limit.
Secondary Option 3 (250/250): Troops (200/390/750) 15 HGaunts – 75 Heavy Support (215/250) TFex - 175
I was not involved in the original chat, nor do I have any additional information beyond what is included in that chat. I do not have proof that any of the information in the chat is legit, but it rings true to me, because it is not presented in a way that someone would present false rumors, it is highly detailed, and it is focused on fantasy instead of 40k.
The single change that most excites me is the percentage FOC, because it is such an elegant solution to so many of the problems in the current meta of 40k (Spam Lists, Deathstars, Allies, Escalation, and Fortifications).
% based FOC in 40k wont happen for a reason, it would invalidate the big kits they sell for the game and WANT to be selling in multiples... this isnt fantasy in this regard, unless you want a min game points increase where you end up with as many models as fantasy on the table, because the average games of fantasy i see is 2000-2500 points, you dont get the 600 point games or any of that stuff..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 03:27:21
I'll be rolling Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity until this is sorted out and settled down.
I will give a secret hope to a new Blood Angels codex this year. As an ex-Wolf player... BA has the coolest special characters and who doesn't love a fast vindicator?
GW talks about the upcoming new edition of their biggest and most profitable product line, Warhammer 40,000:
*crickets chirping* *tumbleweed rolls buy*
Literally almost any other company on Earth talks about their upcoming new release for their most profitable product line:
"It's amazing! You won't believe how great it is! Check out all this cool new stuff you'll be able to do! Stay tuned for even more previews. This is going to be great!!!"
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 03:34:34
ausYenLoWang wrote: yes but it limits the piss poor excuses that they can come up with. if you flat out dont wnat to play me fine, just done make up some terrible arbitary excuse, and tahts what the whole NO fw, No escalation, etc etc thing is
What if their reason for not wanting to play you is that they don't want to play against forgeworld stuff, or use Escalation?
ausYenLoWang wrote: yes but it limits the piss poor excuses that they can come up with. if you flat out dont wnat to play me fine, just done make up some terrible arbitary excuse, and tahts what the whole NO fw, No escalation, etc etc thing is
What if their reason for not wanting to play you is that they don't want to play against forgeworld stuff, or use Escalation?
yeeeaaahh just those 2 examples? be legit about it, not give me the ohh its not legal, its not allowed the brb doesnt say you can take them and all those bs arguments, give me that kind of nonsense and ill happily drop any FW from my list, and just as happily put 3 drakes on the table...
to deny a game because of perfectly legal models or lists just because you suddenly see them etc is for me being a cad, iv played games unexpectedly against trip wraithknights, triptide, and a nice tiggy death star. adapt and overcome.
if you come to play a fun not heavily competitive game, then the chaos FW stuff is not broken at all, but hey ill be planning on that and wont usually write it into my list. do i now write my thunderhawk or warhound into all my lists because they are legal? nope, my decimator dread, nope. but do i want the option to take them without someone having a sulk that they exist... YES, do i want to be able to field the thousands of dollars of models without the ragequit attitude that i have seen from people who want to bury their head in the sand i sure do want to use them. the thing is, abusing the base codecies and allies is usually much more detrimental to the game than the use of FW, or escalation.
can i write nice soft fluffy lists, sure i have a 2k points thousand sons list i can field, i can go iron warriors, or death guard, or emporers children. and these are the kinds of armies i normally run, decent and fun to play. though i can abuse the rules if i want.
edit: the end result is you can refuse a game for any reason you want. i just think the attitude and excuses some people use smacks of poor sportsmanship. i think that to deny a game because the list opposite you is perfectly legal is being a bit of a cad, because ANY discussions before the game you should have already said what you are comfortable playing against or NOT playing against, and once models come out of boxes... you see their list and go naaaahh not interested now.. bit of a weak effort i think.
also i see people who say i dont want to play against W X Y or Z and then pull out hard counters to what they leave you the options to field. stacking the game in their favour, when you do the righty by them and go with what they are happy to play against, and just have them pull that kind of stunt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:42:12
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW talks about the upcoming new edition of their biggest and most profitable product line, Warhammer 40,000:
*crickets chirping*
*tumbleweed rolls buy*
Literally almost any other company on Earth talks about their upcoming new release for their most profitable product line:
"It's amazing! You won't believe how great it is! Check out all this cool new stuff you'll be able to do! Stay tuned for even more previews. This is going to be great!!!"
Maybe they think that if they don't tell anyone that new stuff is coming until the last minute they'll pleasantly surprise people and score impulse buys? I mean, it's not like you'd get more sales by drumming up hype and allowing customers to get the funds together to buy your expensive gak.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Tau & Gue'vesa (IG): 9000 pts 
Chaos Daemons 3500pts Fantasy 
20,000 Pts 
6000+ Pts
The Empire 
: