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 Wulfmar wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Why do I feel that my Thousand Sons Army (x4 HQ Psykers, 2 Aspiring Sorcerers and x1 Be'Lakor Dataslate) have been utterly shafted by this new Psychic power thing?

Sounds like a mystery to me. I mean you get an extra 1d6 warp charges (plus whatever Be'lakor gives you), meaning you can case those Warp charge 2 powers a lot easier.

It may be just the way I read it but I got the impression the likelihood of perils increased if you were not a Daemon (If you are not daemon spawn yourself the perils increase') - or how ever they wrote it. The Thousand Sons are all humans in my army (except Be'Lakor himself).

Add to that they stated you were more likely to suffer perils the more you use psychic powers - I already have enough perils as it is with my force blowing itself up (maybe that's just the cursed dice)

Yeah, that's what I don't understand. What extra dice? You mean I can roll 2d6+ML to generate powers, but may perils? Still a lot of info to come on this.

Also, not afraid of an army of land raider if I can bring an army of scouting melta in rhinos.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The very fact that the new "Summon Daemons all the time!" powers are split into two groups - the badly named good-guy power deck, and the bad-guy deck. Clearly Grey Knights and Marines won't get the bad guy deck.




And now you can bring an army of Land Raiders. Just consider that for a moment.

My full DE Wych army is salivating right now.

As things stand because of the knights anyway I am actually seriously considering swapping to a full Wych army anyway as Haywire Grenades are simply the best Weapons that DE have!

 Zweischneid wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Sure, there are fluff reasons that Tyranids shouldn't be able to summon daemons. But there are equally valid fluff reasons for Eldar, various flavours of Marines and Orks to not do so. Making it a blanket 'Everyone except nids' is just silly.

Perhaps they cannot.

it's not impossible that Eldar, Loyal Space Marines, etc.. can only use the goody-two-shoes "Sanctic"-half of Daemonology.

Yeah, that's kind of how I read that too - that and the veiled line about there being nasty consequences of using the evil half. I mean, we've gone straight to "Eldar farseers summoning daemonettes, that's farcical" but we don't actually know how it's going to work at all, much as Zion said.

The unbound thing sounds like garbage, though.

I dont like the idea of "good" daemonic ward powers, as you basically have to sacrifice 1 slot/chart just for a list of wards that protect you from the eventuality of the opponent summoning daemons

So, 6th was messed up because of unbalanced units and combinations.
7th seeks to fix that by adding more ridiculous imbalance so that people can show up with all riptides and just win without rolling dice.

Seems legit.
(Good thing I'm starting a Warmachine army for when I actually want a game and not an exercise of putting models on the table and promptly removing them.)

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, 6th was messed up because of unbalanced units and combinations.
7th seeks to fix that by adding more ridiculous imbalance so that people can show up with all riptides and just win without rolling dice.

Seems legit.
(Good think I'm starting a Warmachine army for when I actually want a game and not an exercise of putting models on the table and promptly removing them.)

Well, GW is making it clear like many thread-goers have said before.

"If you want balance, this is not the game for you."

I just don't know what driving away people who want to play an actual strategic game is going to do to their bottom line.

I call it now, battleforged armies will get +1 VP to offset the disadvantage against unbound ones.

 MWHistorian wrote:
(Good think I'm starting a Warmachine army for when I actually want a game and not an exercise of putting models on the table and promptly removing them.)

Amen to that.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
I call it now, battleforged armies will get +1 VP to offset the disadvantage against unbound ones.

OMG! battleforge so OP! GW nerf battleforge now!

 Zweischneid wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Sure, there are fluff reasons that Tyranids shouldn't be able to summon daemons. But there are equally valid fluff reasons for Eldar, various flavours of Marines and Orks to not do so. Making it a blanket 'Everyone except nids' is just silly.

Perhaps they cannot.

it's not impossible that Eldar, Loyal Space Marines, etc.. can only use the goody-two-shoes "Sanctic"-half of Daemonology.

I mean eldar are the reason that an entire brand of daemons exist in the first place. . .

 buddha wrote:
Like when 6th came out tournament organizers will figure out what they want to keep and what they dont to tun a successful event. I'm excited for the new possibilities personally.

Indeed, if Unbound (lol stealing Warmachine terminology) is just Apocalypse in normal games then its fairly safe to say that competitive tournaments will ignore it. If Bound/Unbound actually have some balanced strengths and weaknesses (i.e they steal the tier list concepts from Warmachine) then they could actually be interesting.

Otherwise I'm actually thinking this is sounding more positive than negative. Obviously the short edition/need to buy another expensive rulebook sucks, but I think the fact that GW are actively addressing rules issues (i.e 6th is insanely unbalanced atm) outweighs this (although it remains to be seen whether they actually fix anything). The psychic phase might be annoying/a step towards Fantasy, but it a) sorts out a heap of timing issues (psychic powers are now in the psychic phase, less start of turn overlap) b) solves one of the biggest issues with psychic powers that the buff powers (Prescience, Fortune etc) are the ones which are really powerful and atm they can't be countered. I like the sound of the mission/objective cards in theory, as asymetrical games are always great, but I worry that they won't be even slightly balanced.

Looks like the GT circuit will need to get on the "tournament ban list" if things shake out how they are rumoring to. I HIGHLY doubt that "Unbound" armies will be tournament legal.

Unbound = affirmative action in the gaming world

 Medium of Death wrote:
Surely it's more expensive to field a more diverse army than it is to fill it up with a few large kits?

I think the claims of "greed" on the part of GW are stretching things slightly for that particular point.

The way that the points are calculated vs cost of the models. The price differences are negligible.

Someone could easily Max out their small units and pay less in cash than an army full of big units.

Someone could easily max out their large models and pay less in cash than an army full of smaller units.

The amount of /facepalming I'm doing right now to the people who think 7th will only be Unbound is hurting my head.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I call it now, battleforged armies will get +1 VP to offset the disadvantage against unbound ones.

I reckon it'll be something like D3 free re-rolls to use whenever, or one free re-roll per turn.

I think this is the wrong direction for GW. They're chasing away too many people with this. Now if they had unbound and then a tighter version of the ruleset, that could work.
You can play a real game or just throw models on the table and say "pew pew" a lot. Both sides would be happy.

Again I feel this comes down to what I said (now many) pages back:

We don't need rules to "forge a narrative". We've been perfectly capable of doing that ourselves since the day 40K was invented. Unbound is unnecessary clutter. People have always been able to play with whatever they wanted, so why codify it in the rules? Why focus on creating rules that say "Do whatever you want" rather than focus on making a well written and technically proficient set of rules.

Ignoring balance for a second, 40K is structurally broken. There are too many special rules. There are too many random cinematic tables. There are too many combinations of armies thanks to the dumb allies rules. Putting in a “whatever” play-stay doesn’t help that. If exacerbates it. And then you want to and yet add another time-sucking phase to the fething game?

Bloody hell...

On the bright side this will really shake up the meta. No longer will there only be 4-5 stupid powerful lists from 4 armies, but now there will be 20 stupid powerful lists from those 4 armies.

10 thunderfire cannons. Riptides as far as the eye can see. So many farseers. How many deathstrike missiles can I fit in a list hidden behind barebone russes?

The possibilities to ruin the game are limitless!

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think this is the wrong direction for GW. They're chasing away too many people with this. Now if they had unbound and then a tighter version of the ruleset, that could work.
You can play a real game or just throw models on the table and say "pew pew" a lot. Both sides would be happy.

I would hope that would be the case. Have a rigid version of the rules and a "narrative" version. Would just mean they wouldn't have label one as the "tournament" ruleset while, you know, actually having one.

 Accolade wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, 6th was messed up because of unbalanced units and combinations.
7th seeks to fix that by adding more ridiculous imbalance so that people can show up with all riptides and just win without rolling dice.

Seems legit.
(Good think I'm starting a Warmachine army for when I actually want a game and not an exercise of putting models on the table and promptly removing them.)

Well, GW is making it clear like many thread-goers have said before.

"If you want balance, this is not the game for you."

I just don't know what driving away people who want to play an actual strategic game is going to do to their bottom line.

you want really balanced sci-fi strategic game - play Warzone Resurrection, you want "roll a dice and take models off" stay with 40k ,I propose.

I don't think "Unbound" is totally unrestricted, though. I mean, by the sound of it I could take an army of Ghazghkull Thrakas, but most likely I won't be able to.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ignoring balance for a second, 40K is structurally broken. There are too many special rules. There are too many random cinematic tables. There are too many combinations of armies thanks to the dumb allies rules.

Those things are only a problem if you care about who is winning. There are other, better games if you want to care about who is winning .


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 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I mean, by the sound of it I could take an army of Ghazghkull Thrakas

That would be awesome!

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I don't think "Unbound" is totally unrestricted, though. I mean, by the sound of it I could take an army of Ghazghkull Thrakas, but most likely I won't be able to.

It's not. The White Dwarf says that unit restrictions and allies still apply.

You can make a Space Marines army only of Terminators, but you can not give every single one an Assault Cannon. You can ally it with a Wraithknight or a Riptide, but not with a Soul Grinder.

Of course, the remaining restrictions are nearly negligible.

 MWHistorian wrote:
You can play a real game or just throw models on the table and say "pew pew" a lot. Both sides would be happy.

Why not both?

(I'm guilty of doing doing little engine noises when I move my rhinos around)

While I have called for a return to a Psychic phase ever since the dominance of "Blessings" powers became apparent, I am worried about the implementation here.

From the WD leak it seems you get D6 + all your psykers mastery levels. This seems worrisome as it reminds me of 7th edition Fantasy's Power Dice overload issues all over again.

While 8th's Magic System has it's problems the reigning in of the "Haves" and "Have-nots" in terms of Power/Dispel dice was a big improvement.

The other thing about the "unbounded" freakout is the removal of the human element. I totally get it from a tournament standpoint (though it's probably wise to see what the actual rules are before a freakout).

By the "human element" I'm referring to local meta. My flngs has a very relaxed competitive atmosphere where the 15-20 of us talk regularly, theorycraft and spend game playing days chatting about strategy as much as playing.

In 5th edition a guy moved to town who was a hardcore tournament power gamer. He took everything WAY too seriously, always wanted to gamble on games and was an ass at the table.

Nobody gave him a game for six weeks until he chilled out. This is probably a "your mileage may vary" thing, but I suppose one of the reasons I'm not concerned is that I know my local meta wont try to game the system with stupid lists unless we agree to them first, because that's our human element. Be an ass, don't get a game.

The folks who should be mad in my opinion are the TO's who are not getting paid anything to promote a game they get no respect for doing. You just got you nose shoved in it and your going to continue to support it? You are going to continue for at least another 4 yrs to try and hammer out rules the company doesnt care about?

Here: do our job for us please and you continue to say yes...

I can only think about the definition of insanity here coupled with the next $100 everyone will have to shell out for your next BRB.

I think Golf just became a cheaper hobby...

also we'll all be buying 8th edition once it releases in June 2015 as it supposedly will "fix everything" as I'm sure the GW team will promise in White Dwarf issue 58

Auswin wrote:
In 5th edition a guy moved to town who was a hardcore tournament power gamer. He took everything WAY too seriously, always wanted to gamble on games and was an ass at the table.

What?