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WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian uses his last Wound to summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER.

That's some narrative forging right there.

The last 5 pages have been on this topic, primarily.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

The problem is that it is a piece of work that a lot of people don't like, which if presented as an option would be fine because you could just ignore it, but it is going to be in the core rules.

You've seen the new rulebook in its entirety too then? What else is in it?

Everyone seems so worried about the riptide spam :/ sheesh.. how many new horribly broekn counters are there for that now? a spam list will play like rock paper scissors.

He takes all riptides.. Im going to take all Lascannon devstators... Its not rocket science. Guaranteed 10 easy cheesy counters for every cheesy list going in 6th.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Didnt you read that part where it said "during playtesting". Even the WD team admits this is grossly messing with the fluff, so it wont be in the final game


Also I hardly doubt it really happened on the tabletop...its just some underpaid WD intern being "creative". Wouldnt have suited the senior editor well if he admitted the real librarian rolled a double 1 and turned into a pile of goo (place D6 wide puddle of difficult terrain)

 Sir Arun wrote:
Didnt you read that part where it said "during playtesting". Even the WD team admits this is grossly messing with the fluff, so it wont be in the final game

Hopefully, anyways. But this is GW I wouldn't put it past them to allow this.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

The problem is that it is a piece of work that a lot of people don't like, which if presented as an option would be fine because you could just ignore it, but it is going to be in the core rules.

You've seen the new rulebook in its entirety too then? What else is in it?

I know you think you're being clever, but it's a new rules book coming out, not a time traveling device. Most of the people here are pretty familiar with how GW does things, what certain major rule changes will entail, and how it will affect their local communities. It's not something new with unforseeable consequences.

Unbalanced craziness can be disregarded if you're playing with a small group of mates who all have the same outlook on 40k, but if you're mainly playing pick-up games, or you're in a larger group with fluffy and competitive players, balance issues will just further segregate the community between the fluffy and competitive, and everyone will be left with a smaller pool of potential opponents and a much smaller selection of units to take that will still allow for an enjoyable game.

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

Try reading the last 10 pages then as the reasons have been explained already. Maybe in your neck of the woods gamers get together for tea and sing kumbaya around the campfire while exchanging friendship bracelets and sharing their inner most hopes and dreams for the grimdark future games about to be played but in other places you simply meet a stranger and agree to a game in one sentence. That stranger could have vastly different expectations of what that game will entail (or not entail) and a "buy everything" permissive as standard ruleset exacerbates that.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Leaving out the whole bit about it being playtesting and for research purposes just to try and stir up things? Nice....as if this thread actually needed more fuel!

 Accolade wrote:
I suppose it all depends on choice.

If it's something where players can choose to attempt to sacrifice their character, then I would imagine it would just result in people simply doing it all the time in a strategic manner. It would boost the value of those characters beyond their set point values if every time they got to one wound, the player would roll to see if they turn into a daemon, possibly get lucky, and then "boom," you now have a full-wound Greater Daemon mopping up the work your character couldn't.

I imagine it's a 2d6 random chart that provides random effects, with being the Bloodthirster summoned DoW style.

will result in summoning Lord Kaldor Draigo, in your opponent's control.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Leaving out the whole bit about it being playtesting and for research purposes just to try and stir up things? Nice....as if this thread actually needed more fuel!

The thing is, we don't know if this was just for playtesting, and if this is actually possible in the game.

This whole Daemon Summoning thing is quite familiar.

Azariah Kyras of The Blood Ravens pretty much summoned a trapped DP.

He then died a horrible death.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

Hey, cool, you didn't have time to read the thread but you did have enough time to make a sweeping generalization that everyone is raging and losing their minds!

He's not wrong

And for every post of some screaming "this is the end!" and going on about selling all of their models, there is a second post of someone smugly proclaiming that everyone is being foolish, for they themselves obviously know what GW is doing with this release.

I mean, they must, because they are essentially saying that all concerns are invalid, yes?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I was not even familiar with you previous avatar, and you already switched to a new one. By the time they release new Sister models, you will have gone through many thousands of avatars !

Nah. I just needed to change things up as I was feeling far too serious about the internet again and needed something lighthearted. I won't be changing again for a while.

A while ? So just a mere dozen thousands of avatars then .

 StarTrotter wrote:
*rolls Warp Tether* Daemon almost dies, DSes onto battlefield. Summons a LoC (because I think that'd be the most entertaining) with full health! Actually, just imagine daemons of Tzeentch. Everybody summon a MC! Behold my legion of MCs!

Blue horrors used to summon pink horrors (or the other way around). Now, they summon Lord of Change. What a promotion .
Actually, the blurb say that daemonspawn can do that without paying the high price other armies need, so I say when you sacrifice your greater daemon to summon another greater daemon, the old greater daemon stays inside the new greater daemon, piloting it. After the marine in terminator armor strapped to the giant robot like a baby, after the marines wearing a centurion armor over their power armor, you will get greater daemons wearing greater daemons, and it will be glorious !
Now we need someone to do an illustration/model of that!

 Thud wrote:

I know you think you're being clever, but it's a new rules book coming out, not a time traveling device. Most of the people here are pretty familiar with how GW does things, what certain major rule changes will entail, and how it will affect their local communities. It's not something new with unforseeable consequences.

Unbalanced craziness can be disregarded if you're playing with a small group of mates who all have the same outlook on 40k, but if you're mainly playing pick-up games, or you're in a larger group with fluffy and competitive players, balance issues will just further segregate the community between the fluffy and competitive, and everyone will be left with a smaller pool of potential opponents and a much smaller selection of units to take that will still allow for an enjoyable game.

Again, you also know exactly how Unbound and Battle-Forged rules are going to be? Escalation is technically 'in the rules' as well, but i dont see many pug esclation games, or escalation games in general.

I'll freak out after I see the book thank you

 Accolade wrote:

And for every post of some screaming "this is the end!" and going on about selling all of their models, there is a second post of someone smugly proclaiming that everyone is being foolish, for they themselves obviously know what GW is doing with this release.

I mean, they must, because they are essentially saying that all concerns are invalid, yes?

Funny most of the posts that claim "This is the end!" are also the ones that are claiming that they obviously know what GW is doing.

Less than 20 days to release and still 0 rumors about any core game mechanics getting changed. Will tanks become more survivable? Will Escalation and Stronghold Assault really get rolled in? I wouldnt bet on the latter because those rumors are so old they came from a time where this was "just going to be 6.5th edition"

All we have are 2 White Dwarf scans. Why didnt the goober that took the photos include a couple more pages?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Leaving out the whole bit about it being playtesting and for research purposes just to try and stir up things? Nice....as if this thread actually needed more fuel!

They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Leaving out the whole bit about it being playtesting and for research purposes just to try and stir up things? Nice....as if this thread actually needed more fuel!

They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

I had heard a rumor in 2006 before the old Eldar codex was released about them making Shuriken Cannons rending back then already, but the concept was dropped due to it being overpowered (back in 4th ed rending meant, if you got a 6 to-hit you auto-wounded with AP2 instead of this being a 6 to wound)

 Sir Arun wrote:
Less than 20 days to release and still 0 rumors about any core game mechanics getting changed. Will tanks become more survivable? Will Escalation and Stronghold Assault really get rolled in? I wouldnt bet on the latter because those rumors are so old they came from a time where this was "just going to be 6.5th edition"

All we have are 2 White Dwarf scans. Why didnt the goober that took the photos include a couple more pages?

Probably the only pages that refer to the new 40k edition, this WD was mainly a wood elves issue right?

HairySticks wrote:
Everyone seems so worried about the riptide spam :/ sheesh.. how many new horribly broekn counters are there for that now? a spam list will play like rock paper scissors.

The riptide example is brought up because a game designer apparently didn't realize that he already could bring all his riptides under the current ruleset (reminds me of the knight batrep "oh wait super-heavies explode?")...and it's not really a good thing that he can. Also, because it's a classic example of a list that requires tailoring; tailoring that will make your list useless against 125 henchmen squads (which is also an option). And no one really likes list tailoring.

Im highly expecting this rule.

"A psyker play a dangerous game with the warp. A psyker having XXX rule may call upon actual daemons to fight for him in his place. roll 2 d6 and consult the table below (table containing 12 different daemons from nurglings to blood thirster). on the roll XY remove the psyker from play and replace him with daemon number XY. if the daemon model is not purchased from GW, just remove your psyker, chaos is a fickle"

you gain one
1. Nurgling
2. Daemonette
3. Bloodletter
4. Fiend
.
.
.
10. Keeper of secrets
11. Lord of change
12. Blood thirster

No you have to buy at least one of each (GW will start selling only bundles of 3 nurgle units, 3 daemonette units, 3 blood thirsters and so on, for regular price)

well when people are concerned about being forced to play againt "everything" when there is literally 0 chance of that...

unbound is meant to make all the people who have been frothing about not using all the models they bought,

battle hardened is for all the competitive tournament types who care more about leveling the playing feild.

you will never, ever, have to play against unbound if you dont want to, and its basically just the apoc crowd who will use it.

Also the BRB you bought will still be valid, youll just need a veritable pant load of FAQ/erratas to take into accounting.


also,

unverified rumour (not that any are verified)


but version 6.5 will be the first step in the "living" rule book model that GW is hoping to adopt, and should see periodic updates and such in conjunction with the weekly WD's

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
There are definitely creatures of the warp that aren't daemonic also, well, whether they are daemonic or not is a discussion for the background forum, but they aren't aligned with the big 4 chaos gods, they may not technically class as Chaos. Eldar and Ork gods exist within the warp, the big nasty you end up summoning could be from the ork gods if it is a weird boy using it, a Farseer may pull a manifestation of the laughing god out of the warp, a grey knight librarian may pull Draigo out of it... Whilst Chaos is indeed the most referred to faction within the warp, they are not the warp entirely.

Except that they are probably summoning daemons, Maleific, Daemonology (which I doubt Orks or Eldars call their gods). Daemons have always had the problem of not really representing even all of the possible daemons (look at any of the books and you'll find obvious daemons that really are chaos but not in the books. That and for an army that's supposed to be shifting and diverse the models are very standard without much diversity and restricted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Squidbot wrote:
7th comes as a collection of pages you need to stitch together yourself.

Buy Citadel FINEBOUND books today!

Citadel Finebound Bookbinding Kit with Citadel Binding glue and Resin covers!

Don't forget the cards!

I doubt Dark Eldar would do it since they surpress their natural psychic abilities, and I doubt Craftworld Eldar would either since it may attract attention from Slaanesh.

Wait when did I say anything to do with that? It's no more nonsensical than Ezekiel sacrificing himself to become a Bloothirster to save the Impeirum from Xenos

Besides, DE don't even have psykers.

Several times in the DE Codex they summon and/or have pacts to have Daemon armies for their civil wars...................usually ends badly for the summoner/s.

Yeah I know that but the rules explicitly mention psykers. DE summonings and pacts are much akin to a chaos lord or, more often, dark apostle whom, fluffwise would be capable of it but the rules won't represent anything but the psyker casting it.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not sure if it was mentioned but there's a sidebar in that WD scan that talks about a Dark Angel v. Tyranid batrep/playtest/something where the Dark Angel Librarian (actually I think it's the Chief Librarian - Ezekiel?) uses his last Wound to sacrifice himself and summon a Bloodthirster which helps them win the game.

Let me say that again: A SPACE MARINE Librarian, and a DARK ANGEL at that, SUMMONS A BLOODTHIRSTER. That's taking a dump on 30 years of backstory. And no it wasn't Mat Ward who did it

That's some narrative forging right there.

Sooo..... you're not making even the most token attempt to see what's happening in the thread... go away

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Leaving out the whole bit about it being playtesting and for research purposes just to try and stir up things? Nice....as if this thread actually needed more fuel!

I'll get the promethium!

SlyasR wrote:
Im highly expecting this rule.

"A psyker play a dangerous game with the warp. A psyker having XXX rule may call upon actual daemons to fight for him in his place. roll 2 d6 and consult the table below (table containing 12 different daemons from nurglings to blood thirster). on the roll XY remove the psyker from play and replace him with daemon number XY. if the daemon model is not purchased from GW, just remove your psyker, chaos is a fickle"

you gain one
1. Nurgling
2. Daemonette
3. Bloodletter
4. Fiend
.
.
.
10. Keeper of secrets
11. Lord of change
12. Blood thirster

Just FYI, a 2d6 table begins with "2" not "1"

I'd be surprised at even GW making it random model... most likely just buy it as an addition to your force, and use the psyker to bring it into play (just like previous Chaos Daemon/Marine books did anyway).

 warboss wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
Unlike some, i don´t have the stamina to read all 94 pages of posts, but most of what i have seen is rage regarding the Unbound Army rules and that they will ruin the hobby.
In my neck of the woods we are likely to make changes along the way if the Unbound rules make for a terrible game, and indeed, anyone should feel free to do so! It´s YOUR game!
Tournaments regularly change some aspect of the rules aswell. So i ask you: what is the problem here?

Try reading the last 10 pages then as the reasons have been explained already. Maybe in your neck of the woods gamers get together for tea and sing kumbaya around the campfire while exchanging friendship bracelets and sharing their inner most hopes and dreams for the grimdark future games about to be played but in other places you simply meet a stranger and agree to a game in one sentence. That stranger could have vastly different expectations of what that game will entail (or not entail) and a "buy everything" permissive as standard ruleset exacerbates that.

Eh, he just doesn't understand how the vast majority of 40k games are played at local game stores against an endless line of unreasonable strangers with whom every conversation becomes something akin to a nuclear arms treaty negotiation.

I mean, I can *barely* even agree to a points value with these unbending mystery men without creating ugly scenes in stores and fistfights in the alley.

There are reasons why I have a custom Battlefoam tray with slots for brass knuckles and pepper spray.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I doubt Dark Eldar would do it since they surpress their natural psychic abilities, and I doubt Craftworld Eldar would either since it may attract attention from Slaanesh.

Actually, with how Daemons can be summoned through Sorcery I would actually argue that this would be the only power that any model should be able to buy, Psyker or not.

Theoretically I concur with you. Although logically only a limited number of individuals would actually do so. Still, if this were possible... I'd be so happy. I'd have priests summoning daemons, guardsman commanders becoming vessels for daemons.... I could play something slightly like the lost and the damned! (I really miss them)

PhantomViper wrote:
They mentioned that that happened during a playtesting game, but they never said that that option was not going to be in the final rules.

And if GW wastes playtest time testing things that are not going to be in the rules, then that explains a little bit of why their final product is such a load of garbage...

You do know play testing can determine if you need to exclude things from the rules or not, right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I just thought it took an exceedingly high amount of skill and power to summon any daemons you would want. Chaos gods aren't really in the business of answering mortal's requests the way they would like.

Now, I'm sure GW will address this by giving Daemonology a D6 table of daemons you can summon, but still I'm not entirely positive that the mechanism (being whatever it is) will fit the fluff. Especially considering any of these psykers summoning daemons are on their first (and only) try doing so.

Hopefully a 2-12 or 4-24 table that ranges from turning into a pile of bubbling goo to becoming Skarbrand.

It's also funny that unless they include the rules for all these Daemons we will supposedly be able to summon in the rulebook itself, pretty much everyone wanting to do this will have to buy a Daemon dex.

Perhaps THAT is the price you pay if you're not already playing Daemons?

Psssht. It'll probably be something like roll a d6! Primaris is troops, 1 is heavy, 2 is elite, 3 is heavy, and, if you roll multiple dice aboce what you normally should, thus increasing the risks, you get a HQ option. On top of that, you must roll 2d6. On 1-3 it is Slaanesh, 4-6 is nurgle, 7-9 is khorne, and 9-12 is Tzeentch because as soon as they think of Chaos they can't help but wet themselves on the idea of extra random tables.

SlyasR wrote:
Im highly expecting this rule.

"A psyker play a dangerous game with the warp. A psyker having XXX rule may call upon actual daemons to fight for him in his place. roll 2 d6 and consult the table below (table containing 12 different daemons from nurglings to blood thirster). on the roll XY remove the psyker from play and replace him with daemon number XY. if the daemon model is not purchased from GW, just remove your psyker, chaos is a fickle"

you gain one
1. Nurgling
2. Daemonette
3. Bloodletter
4. Fiend
.
.
.
10. Keeper of secrets
11. Lord of change
12. Blood thirster

No you have to buy at least one of each (GW will start selling only bundles of 3 nurgle units, 3 daemonette units, 3 blood thirsters and so on, for regular price)

Heck, I'll take a 1 in 4 chance of turning into a Greater Daemon!

If it turns out to be anything like this, I'm sure it will be 2D6 on a 12 you roll on a further table that is like 1-3 nothing, 4 KoS, 5 LoC, 6 Thirster.

Alas, we have no fething clue how any of this will work, but we can dream!

Edit: The more random tableception the better!