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 Sledgehammer wrote:
So i was talking to my store manager today, and he said that flyers now no longer get jink saves unless you command them to dive or evade. You cannot shoot (im not sure if he meant at full ballistic skill or not at all) whilst doing defensive maneuvers, unless you upgrade your pilots skill. So there are also ranks to your pilot's skills now.

nowadays flyers can take a jink save, but will fire snap shots in their next turn. this upgrade pilot skill is a new thing, though

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
So i was talking to my store manager today, and he said that flyers now no longer get jink saves unless you command them to dive or evade. You cannot shoot (im not sure if he meant at full ballistic skill or not at all) whilst doing defensive maneuvers, unless you upgrade your pilots skill. So there are also ranks to your pilot's skills now.

nowadays flyers can take a jink save, but will fire snap shots in their next turn. this upgrade pilot skill is a new thing, though

Wasn't that in Crusade of Fire and Death from the Skies?

 Eldarain wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
So i was talking to my store manager today, and he said that flyers now no longer get jink saves unless you command them to dive or evade. You cannot shoot (im not sure if he meant at full ballistic skill or not at all) whilst doing defensive maneuvers, unless you upgrade your pilots skill. So there are also ranks to your pilot's skills now.

nowadays flyers can take a jink save, but will fire snap shots in their next turn. this upgrade pilot skill is a new thing, though

Wasn't that in Crusade of Fire and Death from the Skies?

Would it surprise you if GW shoehorned it in?

Not at all. Just commenting on whether or not it's a new creation (assuming it's in at all)

 Eldarain wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
So i was talking to my store manager today, and he said that flyers now no longer get jink saves unless you command them to dive or evade. You cannot shoot (im not sure if he meant at full ballistic skill or not at all) whilst doing defensive maneuvers, unless you upgrade your pilots skill. So there are also ranks to your pilot's skills now.

nowadays flyers can take a jink save, but will fire snap shots in their next turn. this upgrade pilot skill is a new thing, though

Wasn't that in Crusade of Fire and Death from the Skies?

There's a upgrade called Fighter Ace, that gives each flyer-owning faction (you have to buy this for EACH flyer) a d6 table and a chance to get something generally useful, but quite expensive. If Fighter Ace becomes cheaper, it would be nice.

 Alex C wrote:
I don't buy into this whole "yo dawg, I'm summoning Daemons who can summon Daemons who can summon Daemons" line of thinking anyway. Overly reliant on perfect circumstances and inaction of your opponent.

The thing that makes it all tick over is that the entire force could easily have a 3++ or possibly even 2++ invuln save while doing this, thanks to one of the other powers. With saves like that, yeah you can pretty much ignore the enemy for the most part while you build up your army of doom.

 Maddermax wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
I don't buy into this whole "yo dawg, I'm summoning Daemons who can summon Daemons who can summon Daemons" line of thinking anyway. Overly reliant on perfect circumstances and inaction of your opponent.

The thing that makes it all tick over is that the entire force could easily have a 3++ or possibly even 2++ invuln save while doing this, thanks to one of the other powers. With saves like that, yeah you can pretty much ignore the enemy for the most part while you build up your army of doom.

You can't spend the first 2 or 3 turns of your game using your spellcasters to simply summon more demons. There's a huge amount of firepower tied up in deamon spellcasters, summoning means you aren't splatting stuff. And I seriously doubt you can win any game by spending your first 2 or 3 turns not killing anything.

And the entire force could not "easily have a 3++ or possibly even 2++". A single squad can have an amazing invul but the rest of the army will be 5++ base, reliant on divination to bump that to 4++. But of course you'll be using all your spellcasters to summon more demons, so you won't be pulling that off. I guarantee you that any competant enemy can kill those t3 5++ demons far quicker than you can summon them.

Unless there is another bubble power they can only get +1 reliably. So they are looking at a 4+ with re-roll 1s.

Any army with some decent ranged shooting will be removing mastery levels on horrors all over the place.

I honestly am not worried about it. It will be a gimmick army that might do well against bad players or when the dice are really hot.

 Leth wrote:
Unless there is another bubble power they can only get +1 reliably. So they are looking at a 4+ with re-roll 1s.

Any army with some decent ranged shooting will be removing mastery levels on horrors all over the place.

I honestly am not worried about it. It will be a gimmick army that might do well against bad players or when the dice are really hot.

Or.

Twenty pink horrors as bubble wrap with 2++ rerolls because grimoire is still a thing and not FAQd or, realistically, should be a roll of a 6 on a table somewhere as it's too powerful for what it does.

The new daemon spells further makes 2++ rerollable saves a solidified thing. Now you don't need divination, but spam daemonology stuff, crap out new units as you lock up he opponents army with infantry that's incredibly hard to kill.

And here's hoping hit and run is nerfed to not pass on to the unit from an IC.

You can used Cursed Earth to get up to a 4++ easily enough, I think.

It's still not going to be spawning faster than it dies in most cases though.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Unless there is another bubble power they can only get +1 reliably. So they are looking at a 4+ with re-roll 1s.

Any army with some decent ranged shooting will be removing mastery levels on horrors all over the place.

I honestly am not worried about it. It will be a gimmick army that might do well against bad players or when the dice are really hot.

Or.

Twenty pink horrors as bubble wrap with 2++ rerolls because grimoire is still a thing and not FAQd or, realistically, should be a roll of a 6 on a table somewhere as it's too powerful for what it does.

The new daemon spells further makes 2++ rerollable saves a solidified thing. Now you don't need divination, but spam daemonology stuff, crap out new units as you lock up he opponents army with infantry that's incredibly hard to kill.

And here's hoping hit and run is nerfed to not pass on to the unit from an IC.

Okay.....so the unit that is grimoired has a 2++, guess what you can shot past it and they are not going to be getting a better save than their invul so a bubble wrap is meh in that case. If you cant kill two-three horror units in a turn then your army has some short comings that are beyond my help.

Will it baffle unskilled players with bad lists? possibly. However I dont see it being a competative list at all. It banks on too many dice going your way to be effective.

 Leth wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Unless there is another bubble power they can only get +1 reliably. So they are looking at a 4+ with re-roll 1s.

Any army with some decent ranged shooting will be removing mastery levels on horrors all over the place.

I honestly am not worried about it. It will be a gimmick army that might do well against bad players or when the dice are really hot.

Or.

Twenty pink horrors as bubble wrap with 2++ rerolls because grimoire is still a thing and not FAQd or, realistically, should be a roll of a 6 on a table somewhere as it's too powerful for what it does.

The new daemon spells further makes 2++ rerollable saves a solidified thing. Now you don't need divination, but spam daemonology stuff, crap out new units as you lock up he opponents army with infantry that's incredibly hard to kill.

And here's hoping hit and run is nerfed to not pass on to the unit from an IC.

Okay.....so the unit that is grimoired has a 2++, guess what you can shot past it and they are not going to be getting a better save than their invul so a bubble wrap is meh in that case. If you cant kill two-three horror units in a turn then your army has some short comings that are beyond my help.

Will it baffle unskilled players with bad lists? possibly. However I dont see it being a competative list at all. It banks on too many dice going your way to be effective.

Not to mention we don't know everything about DtW, among other changes not yet known.

yeah, Im suspecting you will be able to DTW on more spells now,

not just ones targeting your units directly.

so might affect GOTN

It makes screamerstar even more incredibly powerful now, you don't have to take those 9 Screamers, you can summon them. You don't need to take Daemonettes, you can summon them which leaves you more points for more Pink Horrors etc. It will absolutely be a top tier army. Especially when you realize that Soul Grindrs can get a 4+ invulnerable that rerolls 1s and are now more resilient.

Also, you are forgetting that one of the summons Heralds, can become mini screamer stars, and are Psykers at Level 1 so they'd get a free spell + another spell and can cast more than one Witchfire in a turn. Heralds auto come with 30 points of options.

Oh you have D6 + 3 Warp Charge for your dispells? Great I have 40 Warp Charge, and 8 copies of the same spell. Oh are you saving your dispells? I'm going to be casting Cursed Earth while you do that. Oh you stopped my herald? Okay possession.

With everything that has been written it absolutely will be a really great army to play, not unbeatable but really great. I'm sure they're will be some caveats to the spells.

I'm wondering what the Inquisition thinks about this demonology?

Also there's the rumour floating around that there in fact will be affinities for certain schools.

We have not seen Sanctum, but even if Sanctum is OH MY GOD AWESOME, you still have way more Dispel dice than they will so you will still dominate and hopefully be able to stop those spells.

It will hinge on how widely available and effective the Sanctic chart is.

Absolutely it's not game changing but it certain is making an already powerful army more powerful. I know personally i don't want to go up against a AV13 4+ reroll 1s Walker that has a battlecannon.

Someone better at math than I can figure out the percentages on that working. I mean its a 50% reduction, i thnk?

 Leth wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Unless there is another bubble power they can only get +1 reliably. So they are looking at a 4+ with re-roll 1s.

Any army with some decent ranged shooting will be removing mastery levels on horrors all over the place.

I honestly am not worried about it. It will be a gimmick army that might do well against bad players or when the dice are really hot.

Or.

Twenty pink horrors as bubble wrap with 2++ rerolls because grimoire is still a thing and not FAQd or, realistically, should be a roll of a 6 on a table somewhere as it's too powerful for what it does.

The new daemon spells further makes 2++ rerollable saves a solidified thing. Now you don't need divination, but spam daemonology stuff, crap out new units as you lock up he opponents army with infantry that's incredibly hard to kill.

And here's hoping hit and run is nerfed to not pass on to the unit from an IC.

Okay.....so the unit that is grimoired has a 2++, guess what you can shot past it and they are not going to be getting a better save than their invul so a bubble wrap is meh in that case. If you cant kill two-three horror units in a turn then your army has some short comings that are beyond my help.

Will it baffle unskilled players with bad lists? possibly. However I dont see it being a competative list at all. It banks on too many dice going your way to be effective.

I'm operating off the assumption that the daemons player isn't dumb. He's pushing forward a wall of pink horrors for cheap with plenty of other nasties abound, like Tzeentch princes and what not. You will have to shoot the pink horros or face getting locked in combat with a rerollable 2++ pink wall or.shoot them and not prioritizing other, more lethal targets. He can the do threat overload in the psyker phase making you burn dispel dice on more game changing spells and leaving the little one, like 2++ save one to linger since I believe it's WC1.

None of this precludes a daemon prince from poopin out more horrors in your backfield making FMC circus into an MSU list if they focus entirely on daemonology.

We still have more to learn, but anytime you can get new units for free with little recourse or an effective means of stopping it,it's going to end poorly for the game.

Warmachine has a similar mechanic in Cryx, but you are either using a casters feat (once per game special) or a limited select few units who fart out new guys, Bane Lord Tartarsauce being the prime culprit.

And he's target priority one!

Anytime you can exceed the point value of the game through mechanics automatically is a powerful ability. Regardless of drawbacks.

We are both playing a 2000 point army, but now I have 3000 points on the table. it's just an automatic benefit.

I don't understand why people don't understand that. Anytime you can trade up for something that is more powerful and more expensive. For example a Herald turning into a Bloodthirster, it is piwerful regardless.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't understand why people don't understand that. Anytime you can trade up for something that is more powerful and more expensive. For example a Herald turning into a Bloodthirster, it is piwerful regardless.

Oh! Now I get it! Heralds are worse than Bloodthirsters! Thank you for putting it so plainly! See, I thought that, since there's just a damn ton of information we don't have yet, it would be ignorant to jump to conclusions about how good summoning will be. I mean, nobody is saying it will be bad, exactly; just a bit skeptical that it will be broken. Buuuuut, now that the Metatran has sent you here to point out that Bloodthirsters are better than Heralds, I finally GET it. I now renounce GW and am selling my collection and will only troll forums as a hobby from now on!

 tomjoad wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't understand why people don't understand that. Anytime you can trade up for something that is more powerful and more expensive. For example a Herald turning into a Bloodthirster, it is piwerful regardless.

Oh! Now I get it! Heralds are worse than Bloodthirsters! Thank you for putting it so plainly! See, I thought that, since there's just a damn ton of information we don't have yet, it would be ignorant to jump to conclusions about how good summoning will be. I mean, nobody is saying it will be bad, exactly; just a bit skeptical that it will be broken. Buuuuut, now that the Metatran has sent you here to point out that Bloodthirsters are better than Heralds, I finally GET it. I now renounce GW and am selling my collection and will only troll forums as a hobby from now on!

His point is valid, you're trading one unit for a much more powerful one. Unless there's some sort of *serious* downside to doing this which hasn't been revealed (possible, but doubtful), it's extremely powerful and basically adding free points to an army. No different than getting to trade up a Leman Russ for a Baneblade.

Hollismason wrote:
Anytime you can exceed the point value of the game through mechanics automatically is a powerful ability. Regardless of drawbacks..

Although less so than it might be, given that the current iteration of this game was written by people who think that points limits should be optional anyway...

Let's all step back from the ledge. All summoning powers are on a level3 power. That means you have to roll 3 4+'s. To reliably get that you need to roll 6 power dice. You still perils on double 6's. So for your standard Demon Army with no one interfering you might be able to get 3 summonings off, this also means youre not buffing anyone or shooting anyone and Demons die quickly without buffs.

As for the 2++ rerollable we don't know how the FAQ's will shake out.

 Flashman wrote:

 Brotherjanus wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Could it be we are "exploring the time of ending".??

We are exploring the time of 40k ending for alot of people I believe.

Yes, this will be the first edition of 40K I haven't bought. It might be my age (38) or it might be that I prefer games with a bit more structure and balance.

Well, I have ten years on you (I'm 48), and will be avoiding this edition completely as well. Possibly even to the point of divesting myself entirely of 40k.

After playing several other games, from other manufacturers, over the last six months I will say that it becomes more obvious just how poorly done 40k really is as a game. Sad part is, I no longer think for people still clinging to it that it is the rules doing it, but the years of building and collecting armies.

Everything I have seen with this edition so far, from my personal perspective, sounds like this is actually going to be worse than 6th edition turned into. They are, once again, just piling more on top of an already clunky ruleset and fixing NOTHING of what is really needed. There are a few tweaks, sure, but not any true fixes from everything that is known at this point.

This is the fantasy 40k edition.
Fantasy because GW thinks it will fix the game imbalance.
Fantasy because GW thinks it will save the companies financial problems.
Fantasy because GW thinks merging two game systems is a good idea.
Fantasy because GW thinks making things more random, forges a narrative,( It will but not one they will want to hear).

Hollismason wrote:Anytime you can exceed the point value of the game through mechanics automatically is a powerful ability. Regardless of drawbacks.

We are both playing a 2000 point army, but now I have 3000 points on the table. it's just an automatic benefit.

I don't understand why people don't understand that. Anytime you can trade up for something that is more powerful and more expensive. For example a Herald turning into a Bloodthirster, it is piwerful regardless.

I find Tervigons to be an horrible unit as well, under this light. Factory units shouldn't exist

demontalons wrote:Let's all step back from the ledge. All summoning powers are on a level3 power. That means you have to roll 3 4+'s. To reliably get that you need to roll 6 power dice. You still perils on double 6's. So for your standard Demon Army with no one interfering you might be able to get 3 summonings off, this also means youre not buffing anyone or shooting anyone and Demons die quickly without buffs.

As for the 2++ rerollable we don't know how the FAQ's will shake out.

Herald summon power (Sacrifice) is WC 1

Much depends on the peril table.
With all those dices going around if there is a detrimental effect for the whole unit then i foresee troubles for the pink guys.

 loki old fart wrote:
This is the fantasy 40k edition.
Fantasy because GW thinks it will fix the game imbalance.
Fantasy because GW thinks merging two game systems is a good idea.

GW have never stated anywhere their intent is to fix game imbalance. If anything, their design philosophy is the exact opposite; they're creating a 'sandbox' game where balance is set aside for story purposes. If you're expecting carefully balanced rules and stats from 40k, you're playing the wrong game, because that's not what they're selling. Try chess instead.

As for merging two games... 40k had a psychic phase before, it's hardly something they just took from fantasy. In fact I'd say 40k is rapidly moving away from WHFB (it did start out based on that) as they keep scaling up to ever large games with bigger units like flyers and super-heavies. Best save the whining about "merging two game systems" for when Fantasy sees vehicle squadrons and 12" tall units become a regular occurrence.

It's really sad to see so many old-school players bitch and moan when a good chunk of the extra features in this release are founded in some degree of nostalgia. Some people wouldn't be happy even if the manager of the design studio made a personal visit to their house, implemented their entire wishlist of terrible rules ideas and orally pleasured them afterward.

I am still sorta expecting the next edition of WFB to be a supplement for 40K more crossover sales.................