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Thats debunked so fast.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wraithknights, NDK, and carnifax/crushing claw nids will be fine.

Furioso dreads just became viable.

Soul grinders became a really good deal.

Especially since Soul Grinders of Nurgle with Torrent are only 170 points. Things are beasts for what their point costs are.

 ductvader wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.

Have you met Carnifexes?

Thats the problem, this totally bones some are the more expensive nasty CC MCs but does little to nothing against other MCs

Riptides were never great in assault, getting bumped down to one attack wont limit their noticeably nasty CC ability much
Wraithknights and Wraithlords still wreck face in CC.

 Exergy wrote:
So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.

This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.

Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.


it's an idea isnt it?

Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.

Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.

This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.

Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.


it's an idea isnt it?

Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.

Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.

why hitting on 5s, did the WS chart change? It use to be that WS hit on 4s up to WS6.

Consolidating into combat has been debunked for a while.


A bloodthirster with a greater etherblade has 8 S8 attacks on the charge with one reroll. Anything short of an imperial knight still doesn't stand a chance.

Anyways, it seems that Be'Lakor is even moreso the king of the monsters. He can beat down anything (in 6th his armorbane was only a marginal improvement) and can get a 2+ cover save anywhere from jinking.

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.

This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.

Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.


it's an idea isnt it?

Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.

Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.

why hitting on 5s, did the WS chart change? It use to be that WS hit on 4s up to WS6.

I guess I was assuming you were fighting a Bloodthirster or Daemon Prince but that was my assumption.
Would fair even better against anything WS6 or less.

Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.

 Kirasu wrote:
Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.

Walkers didn't need a boost against MCs so much as MCs didn't need to be universally good against most other units. The fact that the vehicle damage table shifted AND MCs are nerfed inadvertently brings walkers back into semi-relevance.

I once had this conversation with one of my best friends talking about how vehicles were simply too easily destroyed.

Essentially, we came to the conclusion that vehicles should only ever get destroyed by a Penetrating hit. Doesn't necessarily mean they blow up, especially with the new Chart for vehicle damage. Just means in order to fully destroy it, you will need to finish it off with a penetrating hit.

Example

A Land Raider has 4 hull points and takes 4 glancing hits
It is reduced to 1 hull point until it takes a penetrating hit in which case it is immediately destroyed as per the normal roll on the penetration chart, immediately applying any damage results and or explosions.

Thoughts on that?

 Kirasu wrote:
Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.

Agreed, grenades are still really the main issue for Walkers. Some of the changes surrounding them have made them inadvertently better, but melee Walkers are still awful. Shame, too... I love Deff Dreads.

 Sparkadia wrote:

Agreed, grenades are still really the main issue for Walkers. Some of the changes surrounding them have made them inadvertently better, but melee Walkers are still awful. Shame, too... I love Deff Dreads.

Terrible against certain targets. Ironclads can still charge marines. Don't walk walkers into meltabombs, but now feel free to go headbutt a good chunk of MCs out there. Walking across the board even got easier, via vehicle damage chart changes. They're not stellar, and without the rulebook in-hand I can't make a definite call, but I feel secure in the rumors of putting one down without feeling like I'm cheating myself.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Wraithknights, NDK, and carnifax/crushing claw nids will be fine.

Furioso dreads just became viable.

Soul grinders became a really good deal.

Especially since Soul Grinders of Nurgle with Torrent are only 170 points. Things are beasts for what their point costs are.

Why run nurgle grinders with torrent though? They can't run if they are out of range, and can't overwatch (at least with the current rules) with those D3 flamer hits.
Nurgle grinders are best with phlegm imo, so they can sit behind cover and use their increased cover save.
Save the torrent grinders for slaanesh.

I love soul grinders, they were good before and the changes make them even better.

Still, the MC nerf might have been a little too hard. MCs don't generally have very high strength anymore, so they will struggle with armour. God help Nids vs Imperial Knights.
(Still, I wish the Wraithknight had received some kind of indirect nerf, I hate those guys).

To the OP; Yeah, walkers of all varieties are now in with a chance vs MCs.

I loved my maulerfiends before, but now they'll see a return to the field! Probably with magma cutters now instead of the lasher tendrils, which I used previously to reduce smashing MCs to 1 attack.

I wonder how attack-boosting things will work? Will a black mace prince get 1+d6 attacks? He might still be king of the battlefield, though still subject to instant death and being shot to hell.

I'm gona be happy with mc changes.

As it was in 6 ed:

"Hey, hey! I can fly 24' across the board and dish an unholy ammount of dakka at you! And you're hitting me on 6 - sure, you can ground me, but it's on a 1-2 and IF you hit. And you're also generally wounding on a 6+ with majority of your weapons cause we're all really tough! Oh, And we can also go flying again if you knock us out of the skyes! And we can also move 12' and charge at will! And you most likely won't kill us in mellee unless you have an uber-character with eternal warrior, good invuln and a ton of attacks that costs like this MC cause otherwise, your power fist sergeant will get challenged out. And we also wreck all vehicles with a ton of s10 ap2 attacks! Oh, i love this game!".

FMC were super-overpowered vs a large ammount of lists. Sure, if you play tau-dar, you don't care. But there are not only taudar around there. The problem is that stuff like talos and footslogging dp are getting even worse but when was the last time you've seen those anywayz?..

Walkers have gotten a well-desired buff. Even though, they're still quite fragile at range and haven't gotten better vs krak grenades mellee, they're not an auto-loose vs MC at least.

So this is how Chaos Daemons and Tyranids die.

To thunderous applause.

You mean C: FMC. You know, there are lots of other options in theese books. And stuff like carnifexes hasn't become a tiny bit worse.

Two Carnifexes getting into combat will pretty much spell the end of AV14, non-super heavy vehicles. Trick is to get a pair of 3+ save 4 wound model across the table per hard target the enemy has. This is nothing new, very little has changed in that regard, except now we have no area cover to at least mitigate the incoming heavy weapons fire.

 koooaei wrote:
You mean C: FMC. You know, there are lots of other options in theese books. And stuff like carnifexes hasn't become a tiny bit worse.

I don't think you understand how big a deal the major nerfing to Smash attacks are to Codices that almost exclusively rely on Smash attacks to deal with heavy armour. Under the new rules it will take a Hive Tyrant with electroshock grubs 4 turns to kill a single uncontestable scoring Land Raider.
Pretty much the only Tyranid builds that will even have have a chance in the new system will all involve spamming Hive Crones and/or Carnifices, and I don't know about you but I find spamming 1-2 units to be possibly the least fun way to play 40k outside of fighting a Revenant Titan.
Daemons are looking like they'll have it even worse, since they don't have the same access to Haywire and high Strength MCs.

Well, previously they were over the top - that's for sure.

Do they still get a bonus charge attack?

 koooaei wrote:
I'm gona be happy with mc changes.

As it was in 6 ed:

"Hey, hey! I can fly 24' across the board and dish an unholy ammount of dakka at you! And you're hitting me on 6 - sure, you can ground me, but it's on a 1-2 and IF you hit. And you're also generally wounding on a 6+ with majority of your weapons cause we're all really tough! Oh, And we can also go flying again if you knock us out of the skyes! And we can also move 12' and charge at will! And you most likely won't kill us in mellee unless you have an uber-character with eternal warrior, good invuln and a ton of attacks that costs like this MC cause otherwise, your power fist sergeant will get challenged out. And we also wreck all vehicles with a ton of s10 ap2 attacks! Oh, i love this game!".

FMC were super-overpowered vs a large ammount of lists. Sure, if you play tau-dar, you don't care. But there are not only taudar around there. The problem is that stuff like talos and footslogging dp are getting even worse but when was the last time you've seen those anywayz?..

Walkers have gotten a well-desired buff. Even though, they're still quite fragile at range and haven't gotten better vs krak grenades mellee, they're not an auto-loose vs MC at least.

Tyranids, Knarlocs, Squiggoths, my beloved Canoptek Stalkers, and Khorne suffer needlessly for the excesses of other armies.

Now I pay 200+ points for a Trygon who can't clear out hordes for want of weight of attacks or broodability, lacks the invulnerable saves, WS, or instant death to truly compete against other melee monster MCs of it's price, and is now crap against vehicles.

Meanwhile the Riptide and Wraithknight hardly notice as the riptide only had two smash hits out of a charge anyway and the Wraithknight is already punching at S10.

More proof that GW has it's pants on it's head.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, previously they were over the top - that's for sure.

Do they still get a bonus charge attack?

From what everyone with the book is saying, nope.
They get 1 Smash Attack. Doesn't matter of your Trygon has 5 attacks +1 for 2 weapons and +1 for charging, it only gets 1 attack if it actually wants to dent high AV.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, previously they were over the top - that's for sure.

Do they still get a bonus charge attack?

The problem in that trying (and largely failing, Iron arm and greater etherblades are still a thing for Princes, the LoC has his boomstick and I already talked about the WK and Riptide, and the DK also doesn't give a damn) to nerf the most egregiously abused MCs they have also taken away the teeth from the much more reasonably designed monstrous creatures.

The new rules hurt the likes of Trygons far more than Wraithknights.

Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank. Things happen. 6 ed came and made a greentide with a kan wall invalid. Walkers on the whole have become plain useless unless it's something like a dual-flamer ironclad in a pod. While FMC have become super-useful. Now 7 ed comes in and buffs walkers a bit and nerfs MC hard.

I see your point with Wraithknights. It's just plain hard to bring in a universal rule to simultaniously nerf the over-the top stuff and buff underpowered stuff. WK are just broken from the start. So is FMC spam. New rules just scream for more tac lists for both daemons and tyranids. From an opposing player's perspective i can tell you for sure that facing FMC spam is at the same fun level as facing a revenant titan in 6-th. My games vs FMC spam were alwayz like this:

Option 1.
Enemy moves thoughtlessly full speed at me shooting everything and gaining first blood. I HAVE to move everything as close as possible to FMC in hopes of ground and assault. If i don't ground enough - it's auto-loose. If i ground enough, i have chances of tarpitting them and even kill over like 2 full turns but my pk nobz are alwayz useless and a waste of points.

Option 2. Enemy moves a bit more strategically sticking a tiny part of his FMC's base in area terrain. It eventually comes to option 1 after a turn or two.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You mean C: FMC. You know, there are lots of other options in theese books. And stuff like carnifexes hasn't become a tiny bit worse.

I don't think you understand how big a deal the major nerfing to Smash attacks are to Codices that almost exclusively rely on Smash attacks to deal with heavy armour. Under the new rules it will take a Hive Tyrant with electroshock grubs 4 turns to kill a single uncontestable scoring Land Raider.
Pretty much the only Tyranid builds that will even have have a chance in the new system will all involve spamming Hive Crones and/or Carnifices, and I don't know about you but I find spamming 1-2 units to be possibly the least fun way to play 40k outside of fighting a Revenant Titan.
Daemons are looking like they'll have it even worse, since they don't have the same access to Haywire and high Strength MCs.

Daemons still have quite a few options at their disposal. Soul grinders, newly buffed flaming chariots, armourbane in the greater rewards, Tzeentch psychic powers, iron-armed DPs/ GUO. Not to mention nurgle units taking off hull points with glancing hits.

Its just not going to be as easy as it used to be.

Ah, so only Tyranids were really screwed over then?

 koooaei wrote:
Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank.

Crushing claws and Carnifexes (preferably carnifexes with crushing claws).

Which anyone with half a brain can avoid as none of them can get any movement options better than fleet.



ALL ABOARD THE MONOBUILD TRAIN GUYS.

DESTINATION: PSYCHIC CHOIRS TO NOT GET SCREWED BY ENEMY PSYKERS BUT CERTAINLY NOT FOR BUFFS, DEBUFFS, AND ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE GOOD POWERS COMPARED TO THE BRB OR ELDAR, SKYBLIGHT SWARMS THAT ONLY EVER SHOOT BECAUSE MELEENIDS ARE BLASPHEMOUS TO OUR GW OVERLORDS, AND CARNIFEX SPAM.

NOW LEAVING: ANY HOPE OF ACTUALLY HAVING FUN WITH YOUR TYRANID ARMY IN A COMPETITIVE SETTING.

I'm so fething impressed.

Making an edition that does nothing to help the armies that actually need it (or making them actually worse in some cases) while doing little to hurt the Eldar, Imperial Guard, and (not-Khorne) Daemons and bringing back the spectre of 5e grey knights, giving Imperial players more choices then they can handle while telling Xenos (unless they like Elves) and Chaos Space marine players they can go get fethed.

BRAVO GW, TRULY YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF COMPETENCE. I SALUTE YOU.

Wait, no that's sarcasm, GW is subsapient scum and no one in the design team or leadership deserves to ever touch the game industry again.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Ah, so only Tyranids were really screwed over then?

I thought, we're allready used to it

In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank.

Crushing claws and Carnifexes (preferably carnifexes with crushing claws).

Which anyone with half a brain can avoid as none of them can get any movement options better than fleet.



ALL ABOARD THE MONOBUILD TRAIN GUYS.

DESTINATION: PSYCHIC CHOIRS TO NOT GET SCREWED BY ENEMY PSYKERS BUT CERTAINLY NOT FOR BUFFS, DEBUFFS, AND ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE GOOD POWERS COMPARED TO THE BRB OR ELDAR, SKYBLIGHT SWARMS THAT ONLY EVER SHOOT BECAUSE MELEENIDS ARE BLASPHEMOUS TO OUR GW OVERLORDS, AND CARNIFEX SPAM.

NOW LEAVING: ANY HOPE OF ACTUALLY HAVING FUN WITH YOUR TYRANID ARMY IN A COMPETITIVE SETTING.

I'm so fething impressed.

Making an edition that does nothing to help the armies that actually need it (or making them actually worse in some cases) while doing little to hurt the Eldar, Imperial Guard, and (not-Khorne) Daemons and bringing back the spectre of 5e grey knights, giving Imperial players more choices then they can handle while telling Xenos (unless they like Elves) and Chaos Space marine players they can go get fethed.

BRAVO GW, TRULY YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF COMPETENCE. I SALUTE YOU.

Wait, no that's sarcasm, GW is subsapient scum and no one in the design team or leadership deserves to ever touch the game industry again.

You've just got desperately panicked. All's not that bad. Come on, we've managed to go through 6 ed with orkses. We'll handle this too.

I'm thinking Tzeentch for soul grinders. The reroll 1s is beefy if a unit can get off cursed earth taking the soul grinders to a 4+ invo.

They are a bit too fat to be 25% covered by most terrain so shrouded only really helps when hiding behind a large building or during nightfight.

 koooaei wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Ah, so only Tyranids were really screwed over then?

I thought, we're allready used to it

In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.

HEY GUYS, LET'S MAKE GROUND POUNDING ASSAULT TYRANIDS MORE AND MORE OF A JOKE EVERY EDITION. IT WILL BE AWESOME I SWEAR.

LET'S ALSO MAKE THE MOST VARIABLE AND ADAPTABLE ARMY IN FLUFF ONE OF THE MOST RIGID AND UNFLEXIBLE IN THE ACTUAL GAME.

AND JUST TO PISS THEM OFF, MAKE SURE ANY OF THE LORDS OF WAR WHO AREN'T FLYING ARE TERRIBLE COMPARED TO ANYONE WITH A D-WEAPON.

CLEARLY WE, GW, ARE FAULTLESS GENIUSES AND DESERVE TO KEEP OUR JOBS.

/sarcasm.