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http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

Get ready for Daemons everywhere! This battle is pre-errata. The game is broked. How much will the errata fix is the question.

My early optimism about this release is seriously waning. You haven't even abused the new foc structure and daemons are hopelessly OP.

GW have taken not caring about game balance to a whole new level here.

Yeeep. That's about what I figured would happen 30 seconds after I read the malefic daemonology powers.

I even called out daemons as being the most OP army in a wild speculation thread a while back. =p

Did the AM player bring any psychic defense at all?

Xyptc wrote:
Did the AM player bring any psychic defense at all?

He had warding on all his vehicles and two Primaris Psykers. A perfectly reasonable army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeeep. That's about what I figured would happen 30 seconds after I read the malefic daemonology powers.

I even called out daemons as being the most OP army in a wild speculation thread a while back. =p

Technically Eldar with Daemon allies summoning more Daemons is probably the most OP with objective secured wave serpents and invisible Seer Councils.

I'm not really sure how you fix this mess. Maybe you go back to 6E rules and incorporate the new psychic phase but ban Malefic. I really don't know, but the game is purely for giggles.

slaede wrote:


Technically Eldar with Daemon allies summoning more Daemons is probably the most OP with objective secured wave serpents and invisible Seer Councils.

I'm not really sure how you fix this mess. Maybe you go back to 6E rules and incorporate the new psychic phase but ban Malefic. I really don't know, but the game is purely for giggles.

The one thing I DON'T mind about malefic is that I would love to watch two very good players with endless model supply duel each other in a summon vs summon game. It would be glorious to watch.

One side summoning and one side not seems tragically one-sided though.

I STILL dont see what is the panic about, its a level 3 power to summon a bunch of demons, meaning you need to have psykers costing twice as much just for having a decent chance at it, without blowing yourself to oblivion.

I may be missing something, but you wrote a comment about Ruins with ceilings to protect against Wyverns.

I don't see anything regarding hitting levels or protection from levels (aka 6th edition). I've looked at the terrain section, blasts and barrage rules. In fact, the blasts section specifically indicates look down and everything, even if out of Line of Sight even partially within the blast takes a hit. Barrage rules seem to follow that exact rule as well.

With the change to Night Fight (no range restriction and only granting Stealth), it may be possible to snipe out these key models trying to cast psychics early?

I play daemons and I'm not even thrilled about this change.

Now my mono-khorne is a total joke. Just can't justify that gak when all the other gods can summon.

And on top of this, half of my opponents will just summon whats essentially my whole army over the course of the game to fight me with alongside their army.

Top lel GW

I have the rule book now and seems pretty clear to me that the demonology powers are there specifically for hardcore narrative forging. I hope that TOs take the decision to remove from competitive play.

It's too early to assess until the release the FAQs for armies.

But the problems run all over that book.

People are seeing the obvious broken changes early, but consider the damage chart change, it doesn't remove volume of fire AT but instead invalidates AP1-2 weapons almost completely.

My DE now get roasted inside their transports and need to fish for natural 6's just to open up enemy transports. They have no mid range weapons to crack armor. It now takes all THREE ravagers in a single FOC to crack ONE rhino that pops smoke!!!! That's idiotic, I don't even no how ork's will manage.

Heck Imperial Knights also just went from a big bother to impossible for some races as well. Running the numbers on killing one with shooting is asinine for any weapon.

No one has really demonstrated the OPness of invisibility yet either. It took me ten seconds after reading that spell to acknowledge the game would be status quot + easier access for deathstars.

Oh well, I think I'll stick to extremely fluff centric battles and painting. I really have slim interest in playing some TO's crap take on balance. You can't take a pinto and make it into a sports car no matter how much wrench time you put in, all you can do is stop it from exploding from the rear.

I probably played it wrong assuming Horrors can summon more Horrors. If I interpret the WD article correctly, Horrors won't be able to get the Malefic Primaris but Tzeralds can.

However, since I had two Tzeralds with Summoning, the point holds.

"I really have slim interest in playing some TO's crap take on balance."

Agreed.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"I really have slim interest in playing some TO's crap take on balance."

Agreed.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but every time I read one of those guys primers, they really don't fix the game they just make it more enjoyable for the guys who are guilty of abusing the rules. Which I get, cater to your market, I just hate the hypocrisy. It's not balancing, it's just polishing a turd for your target consumer.

How do Vampire Counts work this out in Fantasy? I understand they can raise new units in the middle of a battle and are considered a strong, but not OP, army.

 Silverthorne wrote:
How do Vampire Counts work this out in Fantasy? I understand they can raise new units in the middle of a battle and are considered a strong, but not OP, army.

I don't know, but being able to drop ten to fifteen Flesh Hounds on the board per turn is a hell of a thing. I didn't even get the power that summons a GD.

 Silverthorne wrote:
How do Vampire Counts work this out in Fantasy? I understand they can raise new units in the middle of a battle and are considered a strong, but not OP, army.

The power/dispel dice ratio is controlled better with a cap on total power dice.

The new 7th 40k system is open to the same flaws and imbalances that ruined 7th Fantasy.

It is much harder to summon in Fantasy as it is much easier to dispel. Furthermore, zombies aren't exactly strong creatures. If they could summon Necromancers (analogous to summoning Heralds), it would be bent. They can bring units back from the dead which is quite strong, but again hard to pull off.

At that rate of speed we will only need a single day to hash out a GT.

I foresee a lot of house ruling on my gaming groups part.... if we even continue playing 40K which is very much in the air.

jamesk1973 wrote:
At that rate of speed we will only need a single day to hash out a GT.

If you're referring to the two turn game length, it took three hours with all the bookkeeping.

I have been optimistic but the horror is finally setting in. I think I might not even continue to play 40K...

There has been a very downward spiral ever since Escalation/Stronghold assault and I think this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

Keep hoping. Those of us with a bit more practical outlook will just see the truth about the various reports about daemon summspam. Randomly getting a 2500pt army versus a 1500pt army in a pickup game or tourney is a HORRIBLE mechanic.

Not to mention that it completely invalidates any list that takes a single or small amount of psychers.

By not having a cap on the psychic dice pool it pushes players to either go full psycher (like the featured deamon army) or just ignore them completely.

Yea get ready for some crappy TO opined errata for events you would consider. There is simply too much to restrict now without idiot amounts of bias showing through. Just play with close friends for fun. If you do go to an event, go for the people and the models not the game.

What bums me out is the wife and I were about to start a Demon army.

Now they are going to be the new OP flavor. Of course I'll choose not to abuse summoning powers, but it's still a really lame and poorly implementing new part of 40k.

 Iechine wrote:
What bums me out is the wife and I were about to start a Demon army.

Now they are going to be the new OP flavor. Of course I'll choose not to abuse summoning powers, but it's still a really lame and poorly implementing new part of 40k.

Dude. Just play for fun. This has never and will never be a good game for taking seriously in any competitive light. It's a great hobby where you can meet some really nice and creative people. As soon as you even try to add the words competitive to 40k, spiteful, abusive and downright disingenuous armies come out that spoil peoples enjoyment.

There has never been a balanced edition. I have been playing since 92. Every edition has horrible design flaws from bottom to top coupled with the idiot rationale like adding new mechanics to the newest book without adding new rules to older (and thus outdated) books is fair.

^ I didnt mention competitive at all...

I meant built in deficiencies that are a detriment to an army. The rules are right there, 100% legal, so it becomes a task of binding your own hands behind your back and using morals to decide how much is too much. And once you start doing that it quickly scales out of proportion.