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 Jimsolo wrote:
I guess I'm confused. Aren't the models/fluff an intrinsic part of the game?

Nope. I'm talking about the rules, which are entirely independent of the model I happen to be painting. The fluff/models provide a reason to play the game, but they aren't part of the rules.

 Lobomalo wrote:
MtG, Elder Dragon Highlander was purely a player driven concept and had no set rules from Wizards at all. It even had an accepted ban list composed by the majority of players. It thrived very well and then Wizards incorporated it into a valid game format, made money off of it and named it Commander.

The difference is that WOTC actually cares about their game, does extensive research on what the players want to see, and acts on that information. GW, on the other hand, declares that they already know everything, ignores everyone who doesn't enjoy the "casual at all costs" style of gaming the authors prefer, and publishes idiotic statements about how awesome games day is because it lets fans participate in their favorite part of the hobby: buying GW products. The only way a player-made 40k variant is ever going to have any impact on the official rules is if/when GW finally goes bankrupt and someone with more sense takes over the IP.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't know that I'd go about holding MTG up as an 'enjoyable' game.

It's like heroin. You might like it when you start, but nobody with any real time under their belt is doing it because they enjoy it anymore. They do it because they're addicted.

I have no legitimate argument for this. +1 Internets for you lol, game is like crack

 Peregrine wrote:
You realize that Mirrodin was ten years ago, right? Yes, they did have some problems around that time, but the game has grown significantly since then.

Would have been nice if after 7 editions 40k would have little to no problems left too.

 Yonan wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
You realize that Mirrodin was ten years ago, right? Yes, they did have some problems around that time, but the game has grown significantly since then.

Would have been nice if after 7 editions 40k would have little to no problems left too.

Except Wizards still has issues with Magic. Certain blocks bring in players, others make them quit. I know of some pro players who have flat out quit because certain editions came out. Not to mention, there is still nothing out there that can actually significantly take out U/W control, the best anyone can do is go U/W and break even, but that is off topic.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is the problem with that argument: Letting fans fix the rules is misguided at best and a completely foolish at worst. See, proffesional companies lack (for the most part) bias towards certain armies and playstyles but your average 40k player has a fixed idea of how the game should play. Some players want assault to be buffed to hell while others want further nerfs.

I agree and disagree with this. Citing other games for example.

MtG, Elder Dragon Highlander was purely a player driven concept and had no set rules from Wizards at all. It even had an accepted ban list composed by the majority of players. It thrived very well and then Wizards incorporated it into a valid game format, made money off of it and named it Commander.

For 40k, I can see minor changes as good, like ditching the rolls for Traits and Powers, its too time consuming. But if I recall correctly, and I know I do, GW allows for players to freely adjust rules as they see fit. This could both be very good and dangerously bad depending on the player.

The 40k community isn't like the magic community, though. Sure, there may be a lot of overlap in terms of attitude but it has it's own idiosyncrasies. People tend to show bias towards one army or playstyle since they invested significantly into it whereas in Magic: The Gathering investing into different play styles isn't nearly as costly. So, those players who spent a ton of cash on a crappy force are probably going to dislike rules that do not favor their army as much and want those gone.

However, if you are talking about small change like that it's still not a convincing argument for me since the problems with 40k go much deeper. I won't go into it because other people have covered it in detail but fixing 40k simply isn't a project for the community. The community should be involved, yes, but a design studio needs to make the rules.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:


No, it is not because they are smaller. I think Warmahordes rules are terrible, even when held up next to 40k. But you have to give it to Warmahordes that their rules are written much better and much clearer than GW.

And maybe YOU got into this game while the prices were outrageous but as I said, some of us have been here a long time. GW being a business doesn't excuse them from terrible practices, just like it doesn't excuse any other business with predatory business tactics. I don't buy EA games because EA has proven time and time again that they do not care about quality or their customers. GW at least cares about quality in their models. A business has to compete for customers, so it is in their interest to treat their customers right, so no they are no in this to make money and only make money. They are in this to make money and to cultivate their business, which means caring for their customers. This mentality to me is far more disturbing than anything else you have exhibited in this thread. As a culinary professional I can tell you a thing or two about price gouging and taking advantage of customers, I can also tell you how it is a short term stagey that quickly leads to shut down. The current GW business model is focused solely on the short term and making a quick buck off of their customers. The numbers are all out in the open for the public to see and it shows that GW is not doing so hot and unless they change something 40k/WFB could well be on their way to a buyout. Sadly I can see GW being the vindictive kind and looking to make another quick buck off of the IP and refusing the sell it less than their asking price and thus completely destroying the IP rather than see it carried on under another company.

I'm very late and don't care to read all 7 pages so if you don't want to answer just say so. I'll be ok =)
I have been collecting and playing GW games since approx. 1991..

Why is GW making terrible business practices when they have been in the business for 20+ years and are still doing well?
How is their business predatory? You are in no way obligated to buy anything they sell. You do not suffer harm if you do not get GW products. People have a tendency to think that the fact that they can't afford something does not make bad business, predatory, or any other adjective one may choose to use.
I have never had a non caring issue with GW in 23 years. How do they not care?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Here is the problem with that argument: Letting fans fix the rules is misguided at best and a completely foolish at worst. See, proffesional companies lack (for the most part) bias towards certain armies and playstyles but your average 40k player has a fixed idea of how the game should play. Some players want assault to be buffed to hell while others want further nerfs.

I agree and disagree with this. Citing other games for example.

MtG, Elder Dragon Highlander was purely a player driven concept and had no set rules from Wizards at all. It even had an accepted ban list composed by the majority of players. It thrived very well and then Wizards incorporated it into a valid game format, made money off of it and named it Commander.

For 40k, I can see minor changes as good, like ditching the rolls for Traits and Powers, its too time consuming. But if I recall correctly, and I know I do, GW allows for players to freely adjust rules as they see fit. This could both be very good and dangerously bad depending on the player.

The 40k community isn't like the magic community, though. Sure, there may be a lot of overlap in terms of attitude but it has it's own idiosyncrasies. People tend to show bias towards one army or playstyle since they invested significantly into it whereas in Magic: The Gathering investing into different play styles isn't nearly as costly. So, those players who spent a ton of cash on a crappy force are probably going to dislike rules that do not favor their army as much and want those gone.

However, if you are talking about small change like that it's still not a convincing argument for me since the problems with 40k go much deeper. I won't go into it because other people have covered it in detail but fixing 40k simply isn't a project for the community. The community should be involved, yes, but a design studio needs to make the rules.

I see your point, but GW has also allowed for players to take some control in how they play the game. Using this, we can freely adapt things to how we want them, we don't really need them to come and change the rules for us. From what I've seen just on this forum, most people have house rules anyway so having GW make new rules or fix rules players have fixed themselves isn't really necessary.

Pricing issue, $800 for a top tier magic deck is a ton for MtG tbh, drop in the bucket for GW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Throt wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:


No, it is not because they are smaller. I think Warmahordes rules are terrible, even when held up next to 40k. But you have to give it to Warmahordes that their rules are written much better and much clearer than GW.

And maybe YOU got into this game while the prices were outrageous but as I said, some of us have been here a long time. GW being a business doesn't excuse them from terrible practices, just like it doesn't excuse any other business with predatory business tactics. I don't buy EA games because EA has proven time and time again that they do not care about quality or their customers. GW at least cares about quality in their models. A business has to compete for customers, so it is in their interest to treat their customers right, so no they are no in this to make money and only make money. They are in this to make money and to cultivate their business, which means caring for their customers. This mentality to me is far more disturbing than anything else you have exhibited in this thread. As a culinary professional I can tell you a thing or two about price gouging and taking advantage of customers, I can also tell you how it is a short term stagey that quickly leads to shut down. The current GW business model is focused solely on the short term and making a quick buck off of their customers. The numbers are all out in the open for the public to see and it shows that GW is not doing so hot and unless they change something 40k/WFB could well be on their way to a buyout. Sadly I can see GW being the vindictive kind and looking to make another quick buck off of the IP and refusing the sell it less than their asking price and thus completely destroying the IP rather than see it carried on under another company.

I'm very late and don't care to read all 7 pages so if you don't want to answer just say so. I'll be ok =)
I have been collecting and playing GW games since approx. 1991..

Why is GW making terrible business practices when they have been in the business for 20+ years and are still doing well?
How is their business predatory? You are in no way obligated to buy anything they sell. You do not suffer harm if you do not get GW products. People have a tendency to think that the fact that they can't afford something does not make bad business, predatory, or any other adjective one may choose to use.
I have never had a non caring issue with GW in 23 years. How do they not care?

Honest answer, at least from what I can gather from people just in this thread, they don't care because they have yet to fix some imagined issues and their prices are too high. I read through their reasons, its nothing more than opinion and frustration.

Lobomato, the cognitive dissonance on display here is just...flat out amazing. You wont buy GW products from GW, admit to downloading the rule book, yet you sit here and say that GW is in no financial troubles? You are not in the minority here, hell I just funded a Necron army and picked up the 7th rule book after about a month of release by trading in a couple of Underground Seas from MTG.

You yourself are saying that you wont buy GW products because they are to expensive, yet you tell the rest of us that their business isn't going to be hurting and isn't going away anytime soon. If GW continues on their current track I can see that they will be gone in ten years. When the time comes for them to liquidate their assets it will come down to one thing, how much money they owe. If they owe enough money to be forced to liquidate their IPs then 40k will continue on. If they go quietly without debt and just decide to close their doors then it could very well mean the end of 40k forever.

For comparison I bring up the MMO City of Heroes. NCSoft, the company that owned it, was not doing so great financially and had invested most of their resources into Guild Wars 2. When their investors started putting pressure on them they decided to shut down City of Heroes as it wasn't making a fantastic profit, EVEN THOUGH it was on an upswing and recovering with reinvestment. Other companies put in bids for the IP but rather than let any competition potential make a profit they decided to let the IP die.

I would no be surprised if GW did the same thing.

EDIT:

I'm very late and don't care to read all 7 pages so if you don't want to answer just say so. I'll be ok =)
I have been collecting and playing GW games since approx. 1991..

Why is GW making terrible business practices when they have been in the business for 20+ years and are still doing well?
How is their business predatory? You are in no way obligated to buy anything they sell. You do not suffer harm if you do not get GW products. People have a tendency to think that the fact that they can't afford something does not make bad business, predatory, or any other adjective one may choose to use.
I have never had a non caring issue with GW in 23 years. How do they not care?

They are not doing well though, their financial reports from the past year to two years have been on the decline and the trend continues to get worse. For the vast majority of the 90's and into the new millennia GW had no real competition. Lately war gaming has seen a lot of new options come onto the field and while a lot of people play multiple games, very few new players are coming to 40k because of the price of entry.

I would describe their business practice as predatory because they know that the majority of their player base is not about to drop thousands of dollars in product and hundreds of hours of work any time soon, so they release poor rule sets, rushed codices, and laughable supplements. You've been around long enough that you should remember things like Chapter Approved and how White Dwarves used to have entire rule sets for armies that amounted to more than what we now get from a supplement. GW is banking on nostalgia and the connection we have to our collections by giving us constant little bits of hope that MAYBE things will get better. You are wrong in that we ARE obligated to buy the new codices and new rules, otherwise we have to right off the time and money we have invested into this hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:


The difference is that WOTC actually cares about their game, does extensive research on what the players want to see, and acts on that information. GW, on the other hand, declares that they already know everything, ignores everyone who doesn't enjoy the "casual at all costs" style of gaming the authors prefer, and publishes idiotic statements about how awesome games day is because it lets fans participate in their favorite part of the hobby: buying GW products. The only way a player-made 40k variant is ever going to have any impact on the official rules is if/when GW finally goes bankrupt and someone with more sense takes over the IP.

Are you assuming that because you don't like certain aspects of the game that GW does no research?
OR that they haven't done many things that people want?
How do you address the many happy customers that continue to buy and play?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Lobomato, the cognitive dissonance on display here is just...flat out amazing. You wont buy GW products from GW, admit to downloading the rule book, yet you sit here and say that GW is in no financial troubles? You are not in the minority here, hell I just funded a Necron army and picked up the 7th rule book after about a month of release by trading in a couple of Underground Seas from MTG.

You yourself are saying that you wont buy GW products because they are to expensive, yet you tell the rest of us that their business isn't going to be hurting and isn't going away anytime soon. If GW continues on their current track I can see that they will be gone in ten years. When the time comes for them to liquidate their assets it will come down to one thing, how much money they owe. If they owe enough money to be forced to liquidate their IPs then 40k will continue on. If they go quietly without debt and just decide to close their doors then it could very well mean the end of 40k forever.

For comparison I bring up the MMO City of Heroes. NCSoft, the company that owned it, was not doing so great financially and had invested most of their resources into Guild Wars 2. When their investors started putting pressure on them they decided to shut down City of Heroes as it wasn't making a fantastic profit, EVEN THOUGH it was on an upswing and recovering with reinvestment. Other companies put in bids for the IP but rather than let any competition potential make a profit they decided to let the IP die.

I would no be surprised if GW did the same thing.

I played city of heroes, I've played every mmo ever launched in America besides Ragnarok, there was never an upswing.

If you read through all of my posts, you will see that my answer to GW overpricing is to outsource, whereas others have simply whined. I also said did not say their business wouldn't be hurt, I said it wouldn't really matter, because it would need to be at a massive scale for them to change prices. A few handful of people here and there won't change stuff.

Also, never said there were no financial troubles IIRC I stated that these troubles happen and they'll bounce back

Also, GW2, flopped. Aeon, flopped. NCSoft has a horrible history with MMO's.

A better exampled would be FFXI and FFXIV

 Lobomalo wrote:


Honest answer, at least from what I can gather from people just in this thread, they don't care because they have yet to fix some imagined issues and their prices are too high. I read through their reasons, its nothing more than opinion and frustration.

Maybe the questions went to the wrong person.
So should I assume you and I are on the same page...
GW is doing a decent job. If you can't afford...sorry, save more money. The rules are fine for many people. Myself in that group. I don't get offended because a unit got nerfed because it may get better
Get over it GW isn't out to get you
And if you hate it so much and it is as bad as you say...find a new game and quit ruining our good time.
???

 Throt wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:


Honest answer, at least from what I can gather from people just in this thread, they don't care because they have yet to fix some imagined issues and their prices are too high. I read through their reasons, its nothing more than opinion and frustration.

Maybe the questions went to the wrong person.
So should I assume you and I are on the same page...
GW is doing a decent job. If you can't afford...sorry, save more money. The rules are fine for many people. Myself in that group. I don't get offended because a unit got nerfed because it may get better
Get over it GW isn't out to get you
And if you hate it so much and it is as bad as you say...find a new game and quit ruining our good time.
???

No I agree with you. GW is doing fine, stocks rise and fall whenever something new comes out, it is normal. I have seen this happen in too many games to even bother being concerned.

I also agree, if you don't like the game, stop playing, don't whine or complain, play or go away.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Except Wizards still has issues with Magic. Certain blocks bring in players, others make them quit. I know of some pro players who have flat out quit because certain editions came out. Not to mention, there is still nothing out there that can actually significantly take out U/W control, the best anyone can do is go U/W and break even, but that is off topic.

Lol, seriously? If you're going to make ridiculous claims about other games you should at least try to make claims that take more than a minute or two of google searching to disprove. Your claim that nothing can beat U/W control is just laughably wrong. Here's the top-8 decklists from the most recent major tournament. Oh look, a single U/W control deck in the top 8, a R/W aggro deck won the whole thing, and control decks as a whole didn't even make up half of the top 8. Go look at other tournaments and you see the same thing, U/W control isn't even close to dominating. I think the problem with U/W control is probably that you're just not a very good player and someone in your area happens to beat you a lot with U/W control decks.

 Throt wrote:
Why is GW making terrible business practices when they have been in the business for 20+ years and are still doing well?

Because of inertia. GW got huge when there was no competition, and the fact that they have the biggest share of the market means that they get a lot of new customers simply because their games are the ones everyone is already playing. The aren't really doing anything to improve their products or grow the company, they're just taking advantage of the fact that they're so big that it will take them longer than the CEO's retirement date to fail completely.

And GW isn't in good shape. They're still making a profit, but only because of aggressive price increases and cost cutting. Sales volume and market share are decreasing, and GW is running out of things to cut. And that's what the most recent financial report showed, even the christmas shopping season couldn't prevent them from seeing a drop in profits and stock price. Expect to see a similar report soon, where the same structural flaws exist and GW just barely manages to avoid disaster despite having the cash cow of a new 40k edition.

 Throt wrote:
Are you assuming that because you don't like certain aspects of the game that GW does no research?
OR that they haven't done many things that people want?

Because even a superficial look at GW's rules is enough to reveal issue after issue that shouldn't exist, while GW authors openly admit that "beer and pretzels" (which is really "casual at all costs") is the only way to play the game and you're TFG if you enjoy anything else.

How do you address the many happy customers that continue to buy and play?

People love the fluff and models. That doesn't mean that the game is good.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I see your point, but GW has also allowed for players to take some control in how they play the game. Using this, we can freely adapt things to how we want them, we don't really need them to come and change the rules for us. From what I've seen just on this forum, most people have house rules anyway so having GW make new rules or fix rules players have fixed themselves isn't really necessary.

This was a joke, right? The game is fine! We can fix all of the problems, therefore those problems don't exist!

Honest answer, at least from what I can gather from people just in this thread, they don't care because they have yet to fix some imagined issues and their prices are too high. I read through their reasons, its nothing more than opinion and frustration.

Clearly you haven't read anything if you think that our concerns are just "imagined issues". But I guess that kind of arrogant attitude is what I should expect from you.

I'm loving this ignore feature, should have used it much sooner.

One should never judge local tournaments though, only Regionals, Nationals and Worlds.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I'm loving this ignore feature, should have used it much sooner.

Yep. I guess eventually you had to get tired of using "BUT UR SO NEGATIVE" as a way to avoid addressing the substance of any arguments, so now you can just block everyone who disagrees with you!

Or ignore the trolls

 Jimsolo wrote:
I guess I'm confused. Aren't the models/fluff an intrinsic part of the game?

Usually in the context of these discussions when I think of "game" I think of the actual rules part of the game, the thing that makes it a "game" rather than just collecting models to put on a display shelf and not the entire hobby in general.

About the only good thing I have to say about 40k rules is that they're a good excuse to line up a bunch of (mostly) cool looking models. That's not a bad thing, when I started playing WHFB I can honestly say 90% of what I enjoyed about the game was simply lining up my army against another army. My tactics were simplistic, I didn't really care all that much if I won or lost, the content of my army was far from optimal and I won most my games simply because my opponents were even worse, but it was damned fun! As I've gotten older, I've developed more of an appreciation of the actual "game" part of the hobby, and when it comes to 40k, the game part is lacking.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I also agree, if you don't like the game, stop playing, don't whine or complain, play or go away.

But we like whining! And this is our designated whining zone...

People are generally good at making decisions when it comes to playing or quitting GW. But when they want to discuss GW and their opinion of it, they go here. I can't overemphasize how useless saying 'don't complain' is. You are essentially saying that there shouldn't be free discussion about GW, or that all discussion should be positive. We won't be censored.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Or ignore the trolls

Ooh, edgy. I'm not sure about this forum (?) but calling someone a troll in a forum is generally a pretty severe thing. Be careful, don't try to piss people off.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I'm loving this ignore feature, should have used it much sooner.

Yep. I guess eventually you had to get tired of using "BUT UR SO NEGATIVE" as a way to avoid addressing the substance of any arguments, so now you can just block everyone who disagrees with you!

I can't tell who he's ignored. It's not you, because he's responded to you since praising the ignore feature.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Or ignore the trolls

Yeah, because everyone who disagrees with you is just posting offensive stuff to get a reaction, and not giving their sincere opinion on an issue they care a lot about. Remember how people have accused you of being arrogant and condescending? This is why.

This Lobomalo guy doesn't seem to get it. He can't argue against anyone because he refuses to engage anyone in a meaningful discussion. He'll call anyone who disagrees with him all the usual Internet watch-words - 'whiner', 'hater', 'troll' - anything to avoid having to make a substantive rebuttal to anything anyone says to him or back up anything he's said. Worse, he'll often just say something like "Had you written anything worth reading..." with one breath, and then deny his arrogant and petulant nature with the next breath. Kind of amazing. I mean wow... "... written anything worth reading..."? Who talks like that?

I mean just look at some of the quotes above:

"GW is doing fine"

"If you don't like the game, stop playing"

I mean how many people have we seen come along and say those things? It's just crazy that people like this exist. Disagree all you like, but a wilful intentional blindness and the audacity to engage with other members in such bad faith and with such dishonesty is mind boggling.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Sure it has its ups and downs as does everything else, but the negativity and hostility I see in these forums since 7th launched, it's disgusting really.

Why should people like what the game has become? I liked 6th Ed, it was the first time I'd jumped back into 40K for a few editions. I had issues with the Codices, but I could live with and was enjoying the general rules. Less than 2 years later a new version of the game comes out and changes a whole bunch of stuff, invalidates other things (like all the damned cards I had), and leaves us with a edition of the game that quite a few of us dislike. And we should just be ok with this because we enjoyed the game in the past?

You focus on negativity, as if someone's negativity is reason enough to ignore what they have to say. You also hate abject negativity. I hate abject positivity - wilful blindness, ignorant joy, the inability to not only acknowledge the potential for criticism but the blind belief that no criticism is valid because you're enjoying it.

Didn't Mark Bolger..eh..I mean Lobomalo said he'd be out of this thread a few pages ago?

This was a thread that was supposed to be about the good GW or rather their games have and he purposefully turned it into a boiling pot of hate fueled with naivitee, ignorance, presumptuousness and rudeness.

Could we just delete the last 4 pages?

Excluding him, what are the good points that have been brought up yet?

-> Good looking models
-> allows for casual fun
-> widely accepted / played, easy to find new players
-> unique, interesting background

 Peregrine wrote:

 Throt wrote:
Why is GW making terrible business practices when they have been in the business for 20+ years and are still doing well?

Because of inertia. GW got huge when there was no competition, and the fact that they have the biggest share of the market means that they get a lot of new customers simply because their games are the ones everyone is already playing. The aren't really doing anything to improve their products or grow the company, they're just taking advantage of the fact that they're so big that it will take them longer than the CEO's retirement date to fail completely.

GW did become a big company when there was very little competition, as did Apple, Microsoft and countless others. Having many players is not the only reason that they are gaining new customers. Does it help? Of course, but tit is far from the only or the main reason.
You don't think they are improving their product? New miniatures, codex, rulebooks, formats, data slates, book lines, specialty(forgeworld)..None of those are improvements?
Growth is difficult right now with global economy but GW are trying to make adjustments. Some successful, some not so much. A company of that size cannot make 180 changes overnight.
You make your CEO assumptions based on what?

And GW isn't in good shape. They're still making a profit, but only because of aggressive price increases and cost cutting. Sales volume and market share are decreasing, and GW is running out of things to cut. And that's what the most recent financial report showed, even the christmas shopping season couldn't prevent them from seeing a drop in profits and stock price. Expect to see a similar report soon, where the same structural flaws exist and GW just barely manages to avoid disaster despite having the cash cow of a new 40k edition.?

GW has had challenges within their financial report. They are also a luxury niche market. Most companies showed a drop or stayed flat(or close) in the last holiday season as economies struggled.
GW stock took its big hit in January and climbed back to 647. 37% higher than it's lowest point in march and less than 100 points below its peak.
Their lowest dip was still around 250 points higher than they were in 2009.
They probably have some structural flaws and are hopefully working to correct those.

Because even a superficial look at GW's rules is enough to reveal issue after issue that shouldn't exist, while GW authors openly admit that "beer and pretzels" (which is really "casual at all costs") is the only way to play the game and you're TFG if you enjoy anything else.

I would disagree. A heavy in depth look into the rules reveals issues that may or may not exist. Many people are not affected by these issues. Someone may be unhappy with the 'issue' but that doesn't make it an actual problem.
I believe you are over exaggerating the beer and pretzels comment. GW has never said it was the only way to play just as they do not say you can only play 1500 points. They make recommendations.
TFG is dependent on the gaming groups. As mature adults we should be able to work out the ways we want to play and a looser gaming system allows that.
Do you need GW to tell you every game should be played like 'x'. I don't need it and definitely don't want it.
So what issue should not exist? Not one that you don't like, but actually makes the game unplayable?

People love the fluff and models. That doesn't mean that the game is good.

What part of the game is bad?
Good and bad is entirely subjective.
I think it is good. As do all the people in my gaming groups.
If it's not good, why do you play?

 Lobomalo wrote:
I see your point, but GW has also allowed for players to take some control in how they play the game. Using this, we can freely adapt things to how we want them, we don't really need them to come and change the rules for us. From what I've seen just on this forum, most people have house rules anyway so having GW make new rules or fix rules players have fixed themselves isn't really necessary.

This was a joke, right? The game is fine! We can fix all of the problems, therefore those problems don't exist!

I don't think Lobomalo was joking.
What needs fixing?
What happens when they 'fix' what you say is broken and then someone else says the 'fix' is broken.?
If group A 'fixes' rule 7 and thinks 10 is fine and group B plays 7 as it is and 'fixes' rule 10 doesn't necessarily mean they are broken. Amd it doesn't mean that they are perfect either, but it shows that the rule is still playable. Then group C thinks all the rules are good and on and on.
Unless it doesn't function broken is subjective.

Honest answer, at least from what I can gather from people just in this thread, they don't care because they have yet to fix some imagined issues and their prices are too high. I read through their reasons, its nothing more than opinion and frustration.

Clearly you haven't read anything if you think that our concerns are just "imagined issues". But I guess that kind of arrogant attitude is what I should expect from you.

I wouldn't say they are imagined. but they are opinions. They are entirely valid but assumed that opinion makes it fact.

 Throt wrote:

I believe you are over exaggerating the beer and pretzels comment. GW has never said it was the only way to play just as they do not say you can only play 1500 points. They make recommendations.
TFG is dependent on the gaming groups. As mature adults we should be able to work out the ways we want to play and a looser gaming system allows that.

This is the problem. I would agree with you as your point makes sense. On the other hand, they charge a HUGE amount of money for the rules. For so much cash, I don't want "rough guidelines", I want quality rules. Well-thought out and playtested. Right now, we are not paying for GWs rules, none of us, at the entire club, because we are not paying someone whose work *we* have to do. If they are supposed to be rough guidelines, that's all fine and well, but you have to charge less for it then.

 Throt wrote:

STUFF

You really need to look at what other games offer at a better value than Games Workshop and do it objectively. Cheaper rules, better rules, more support for the game, more support for the community, lower costs for entry, etc. etc. etc.

Whether or not you like the game or have some sort of irrational attachment to a corporation, this mentality ain't cuttin' the mustard. And there's plenty of actual data and smart business minded folks saying Games Workshop is in the realm of ain't looking so hot to abandon ship. That kinda bad.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Didn't Mark Bolger..eh..I mean Lobomalo said he'd be out of this thread a few pages ago?

This was a thread that was supposed to be about the good GW or rather their games have and he purposefully turned it into a boiling pot of hate fueled with naivitee, ignorance, presumptuousness and rudeness.

Could we just delete the last 4 pages?

Excluding him, what are the good points that have been brought up yet?

-> Good looking models
-> allows for casual fun
-> widely accepted / played, easy to find new players
-> unique, interesting background

I will add...
flexible rule system that allows me to bring all my toys or not.
Plenty of options for, play style, appearance, model counts, etc.
In a nut shell, variety.

The list seems short, but in this sort of hobby, it is the same list for any other similar sort of game system.

 Throt wrote:

In a nut shell, variety.

One Warhammer 40k army that could go from good to bad to good again based on $50~$85 rules changes or armies in four other games with different play styles to master.

I ask, which one is more variety, aesthetics and fluff aside?

*shrug* We like 40k, but Games Workshop is a terrible mess. No reason to support that terrible mess until we see a positive change.

GW lacks in so many aspects compared to Wizards, I don't even see how it is a discussion

The lead designer of Magic operates a blog where he takes on all player questions and freely admits mistakes they have made the game, that is a company I can stand behind, they aren't afraid to admit when they screw the pooch

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Throt wrote:

I believe you are over exaggerating the beer and pretzels comment. GW has never said it was the only way to play just as they do not say you can only play 1500 points. They make recommendations.
TFG is dependent on the gaming groups. As mature adults we should be able to work out the ways we want to play and a looser gaming system allows that.

This is the problem. I would agree with you as your point makes sense. On the other hand, they charge a HUGE amount of money for the rules. For so much cash, I don't want "rough guidelines", I want quality rules. Well-thought out and playtested. Right now, we are not paying for GWs rules, none of us, at the entire club, because we are not paying someone whose work *we* have to do. If they are supposed to be rough guidelines, that's all fine and well, but you have to charge less for it then.

They do charge quite a bit but the idea that they are obligated to charge a lesser amount doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Mercedes should charge less so I can afford one.
IF you feel the price is too high, that is ok. If you don't find the value in it then that is your option. Other feel that they still get value. Some even find value in the expensive limited editions.
There are other cheaper games out there.
I often hear that game 'x' is better because they gave their rules for free...well maybe no one was willing to pay for the rules so they had to give them away so more would buy the models. The street runs 2 ways.
I have yet to find anything actually unplayable?
There is a difference between disliking a part of the game and it actually not working.
Can you help me to see what part of the game is just a rough guideline?

 Throt wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Throt wrote:

I believe you are over exaggerating the beer and pretzels comment. GW has never said it was the only way to play just as they do not say you can only play 1500 points. They make recommendations.
TFG is dependent on the gaming groups. As mature adults we should be able to work out the ways we want to play and a looser gaming system allows that.

This is the problem. I would agree with you as your point makes sense. On the other hand, they charge a HUGE amount of money for the rules. For so much cash, I don't want "rough guidelines", I want quality rules. Well-thought out and playtested. Right now, we are not paying for GWs rules, none of us, at the entire club, because we are not paying someone whose work *we* have to do. If they are supposed to be rough guidelines, that's all fine and well, but you have to charge less for it then.

They do charge quite a bit but the idea that they are obligated to charge a lesser amount doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Mercedes should charge less so I can afford one.
IF you feel the price is too high, that is ok. If you don't find the value in it then that is your option. Other feel that they still get value. Some even find value in the expensive limited editions.
There are other cheaper games out there.
I often hear that game 'x' is better because they gave their rules for free...well maybe no one was willing to pay for the rules so they had to give them away so more would buy the models. The street runs 2 ways.
I have yet to find anything actually unplayable?
There is a difference between disliking a part of the game and it actually not working.
Can you help me to see what part of the game is just a rough guideline?

And their stocks have suffered heavily . So it seems they might really have priced too high in conjunction with several bad business actions.

Well you could have opted for Legion of the Damned that auto-tabled turn 1 unless 7th fixed that. Another example was the time when a GK army could auto-table chaos daemons turn 1. Then there's units such as the Pyrovore or KSons or Haemonculi which are just so bad they really aren't worth being brought out. There was a bomber that didn't have bombs until updated, and several more clunky rules that existed here and there. I'll think of some serious unplayable ones though.