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Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?

mrfantastical wrote:
2) 3 big meks, 1 Warboss, & 1 wierdboy master level 2
*1 big Mek must be warlord
*warlord gets "kunning but brutal" warlord trait
*d3 units get acute senses & outflank
*add +1 to sieze the initiative roll

Depending on the details, this could be really, really good. I fought a game last night which I won pretty much because my opponent seized the initiative and I didn't have sufficient resources coming into his back field. Some tankbustas or even a nice big mob of shoota boys engaging him from the side would have been an absolute game changer. I generally run at least one big mek and a weirdboy anyway and could easily find uses for the other meks and a warboss, especially if they can outflank. My only concern is that they have to deploy as one unit, but even then it will be OK if you can attach them to a mob of meganobs and add a painboy or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:
Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?

"Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."

 Billagio wrote:
Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?

You could I believe, but you could also stay 'battle forged' and bring a second CAD and just put the HQs from it into the Green Tide, which is what I'm going to do.

Might have been covered already, 22 pages is a lot but what are your guys views on the best artillairy units? Im drawn towards the bubblechucka myself. I know the str is technically inverse to the AP but the big blast template is nice.
That or the kannon? Would you take extra crew for their cheapish points?

So in 7th Edition, would Forge World formations like the Dread Mob be considered to be Battle Forged?

 Ratius wrote:
Might have been covered already, 22 pages is a lot but what are your guys views on the best artillairy units? Im drawn towards the bubblechucka myself. I know the str is technically inverse to the AP but the big blast template is nice.
That or the kannon? Would you take extra crew for their cheapish points?

I'm partial to the traktor kannon myself. Now that FMC's only take one grounding test per turn that -3 modifier to grounding tests from the traktor kannon is REALLY helpful for grounding them.

Second best imo is the kustom mega-kannon, because it's good at killing everything, including av. Plus you can insta-gib stuff like paladins, which I fight a lot...soooooo I'm slightly biased.

Kustom Mega Kannons all the way. Put a Mega Armoured HQ with them to discourage assaults and even move and shoot if you feel like it. Add a Mek to eat challenges.

dont even know where to begin.......22 pages of orkiness!! thats my kinda of love. i have a question to add. what is the best way to play against centurions? any and all ideas are greatly appreciated

Centurians don't have an invuln, so anything ap2 is gonna hurt. I think they are t5 with 2+ armor save though, so it'll be rough for the boys. But on a charge with a pk nob, I think they'll do OK. Look out for the attached IC, which will make the job more difficult.

I don't think you can get any of the formation or detachment special rules if you go Unbound at all, because the rule reads "unbound army" not unbound detachment.

Speaking of detachments, what are people thinking make the best detachment combos? I like the Ghaz Great Waaagh detachment for the epic Elite boost, but if I take two CADs I get one more elite and the only extra requirement is one more troops choice. Technically you need one more hq with two CADs but I don't count that as a requirement because there are soooooooooooooo many hq. I count that as a benefit for taking two CAD.

Here it is again but more straight forward:
Great Waaagh: 1HQ, 2Troops, 1Elite required. Plus 1HQ, 6Troops, 4Elite and the usual 3 fast and heavy

CADx2: 2HQ, 4Troops required. Plus 2HQ, 8Troops, 6Elite, and a whopping 6 of both fast and heavy

And then there are the special rules to consider, ObjectSec vs Deepstrike. For competition sake I'd have to say the ObSec is much better, but I really like the Deepstrike for fluffy reasons, so I've got my choice made depending on the nature of the game in this regard. On the other hand, I can fit so much more into 2Cad that I would like to deepstrike. So I'm left mixing and matching rules to accommodate my narrative, same as with the 4th ed codex.

I'm still interested in other combos tho. Any good ideas?

OrksesNevaLooz your right they dont have an inv. save but do have t5 and a 2+ save. they make lunch meat out of a boyz squad and one pc is never enough. would it be worth it to consider taking a warboss with mega armour and pc just to handle the centurions? thanks again

Sure could. Have the nob accept challenges while the boss goes to town. Back when I played works, I generally ran bosses with nobs. Don't underestimate boys though..... they'll often grab a wound or two...

So what do you guys think about fielding a big Mek with a shokk attack gun on a bike? Would that be a good mobile long range support?

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So what do you guys think about fielding a big Mek with a shokk attack gun on a bike? Would that be a good mobile long range support?

It's an interesting concept, a mobile SAG. But the gun itself has 60" range, so the "need" for it to be mobile isn't very great. It's useful for hiding the Big Mek a turn, then jumping out and blasting something.

I personally don't have any ork bikes yet, and i bought the new Big Mek plastic kit with the awesome snotling vaccuum. My current tricknology with this guy is him in a looted wagon, along with 8 lootas, a mek with KMB, and a Mega Armor big mek with a KFF. The mega armor gives S&P to the unit, so the looted wagon can tool around 6" and all the lootas & the SAG can fire normally.

I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.

Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.

 herpguy wrote:
I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.

Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.

That's a small blast shot... basically you're looking at a Plasma cannon w/ +1 S on a T7 2W gun. Using the grot crew and cover right, it's a very durable and very cheap TEQ/MEQ/Light Vehicle killer. I can take a full battery, plus lots of ablative wounds for 180 pts,

That's pretty cheap for that sort of killing power.

Killbles wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.

Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.

That's a small blast shot... basically you're looking at a Plasma cannon w/ +1 S on a T7 2W gun. Using the grot crew and cover right, it's a very durable and very cheap TEQ/MEQ/Light Vehicle killer. I can take a full battery, plus lots of ablative wounds for 180 pts,

That's pretty cheap for that sort of killing power.

Leadership 5.

The leadership 5 is the biggest issue. You can slap an HQ mek in there to make them LD7 but thats just bringing a lousy LD to a meh LD, and you dont get mob rule chart since every model needs it not just one.

Thats why im reluctant to field any of the new guns. The kannons or lobbas are so cheap and durable nobody wants to hit them - the traktor or KMK are nasty enough, even if they are still cheap, that people WILL want to shoot them. They dont take much to clear off when you actually want to clear them off. The fact that theyre nigh immune to anti infantry weaponry is why theyre so resilient, shoot anti tank or anti heavy infantry and they'll melt.

I almost never lose my guns unless im getting tabled. And thats because my opponent doesnt want to shoot his nasty guns at an 18pt model instead of my bikers or 'ard boyz or MANz. Im certain if i beefed up their damage (and nearly doubled the cost) they would be shot at in a heartbeat, cause i know i would.

The thing is that lobbas will pretty much be able to take shots each and every turn due to being barrage. Ammo runts help to reroll the crucial scatter. Lobbas can also be hidden behind LoS and be fine. Kustom mega kannons need to have line of sight which exposes you and lets your enemies hide. Once you start taking wounds you're one failed Ld5 leadership test from losing all your gunz. Plus I really don't think that adding points by 67% for AP2 is worth it either. Orks should never rely on ap2 to hurt 2+ enemies. If you try to play that game other armies will beat you in that efficiency contest every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The leadership 5 is the biggest issue. You can slap an HQ mek in there to make them LD7 but thats just bringing a lousy LD to a meh LD, and you dont get mob rule chart since every model needs it not just one.

Thats why im reluctant to field any of the new guns. The kannons or lobbas are so cheap and durable nobody wants to hit them - the traktor or KMK are nasty enough, even if they are still cheap, that people WILL want to shoot them. They dont take much to clear off when you actually want to clear them off. The fact that theyre nigh immune to anti infantry weaponry is why theyre so resilient, shoot anti tank or anti heavy infantry and they'll melt.

I almost never lose my guns unless im getting tabled. And thats because my opponent doesnt want to shoot his nasty guns at an 18pt model instead of my bikers or 'ard boyz or MANz. Im certain if i beefed up their damage (and nearly doubled the cost) they would be shot at in a heartbeat, cause i know i would.

Exactly. A battery of lobbas or kannons (I think lobbas are better) will be able to safely sit back and be safe all game. They're just not on an enemy's priority list but they should consistently do damage. Plus T7 scares most opponents away into thinking they're too hard to kill, when in actuality with LD5 it's not a hard unit to erase.

Lobbas are really good too, it just depends on the army your facing - if you know what your facing. I face primarily gk's and necrons so I face a lot of dk's, flyers, and termies (usually paladins), so that's why I'm partial to the kmk and especially the traktor. In a tournament setting I likely wouldn't use kmk's since I wouldn't know what I'd be facing, though I definitely would still field traktor kannons, but to each his own.

What do you guys do about psycher heavy armies? I played a game of 7th against Eldar Jetseer and it was basically a free round of shooting, etc for the Eldar since I didn't bring a weirdboy.

Also, am I right in assuming that two psychers are all we can bring anyway? And that they eat up two of the HQ slots? And that they aren't going to ever compete with psycher heavy armies?

How do we approach this?

 matphat wrote:
What do you guys do about psycher heavy armies? I played a game of 7th against Eldar Jetseer and it was basically a free round of shooting, etc for the Eldar since I didn't bring a weirdboy.

Also, am I right in assuming that two psychers are all we can bring anyway? And that they eat up two of the HQ slots? And that they aren't going to ever compete with psycher heavy armies?

How do we approach this?

By using more bodies than they can kill and firing more shots than they can save. But quite frankly, unless you ally in something, orks have no access to proper psychic defense vs armies built around warp charge generation. Seer councils, daemons, grey knights, they will all have more WC:s than you can deny anyhow. A weirdboy and some luck can yield amazing results, but only on the offense.

Edit - If you do want to counter them, the single best anti-psyker star weapon in the game is a grey knights stormraven. Goodbye council, goodbye screamers.

The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.

My weirdboy went against an eldar player that doesnt even really focus on psykers, but he still has a couple for presciencing his wraiths or fireprisms. Just because of the amount of warps he generated he was able to deny me my +1 attack multiple times by throwing the bucket at it, which was more than quadruple what i had harnessed after throwing almost all my dice to get it. Because of the value of warbosses, big meks, or painboyz i cannot afford more than 2 weirdboy, while he can easily field 2-4 psykers.
I understand that in theory a more powerful "wizard" would be able to nullify a lesser "wizard" majorirty of the time. But in a game setting its pretty unfair to allow such powerful abilities to 2-3 armies without even trying, while same said armies can prevent anybody else from attempting to use them.

Btw, my weirdboy only got two spells off in the 3 turns he was alive. That was Frazzle, as he didnt have any dice left after denying both my Warpath and Killbolt, and it didnt even do anything since i missed >.<

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.

It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.

It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.

Orks along with nids and chaos. Oh wait, I think I see a pattern here....

 herpguy wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.

It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.

Orks along with nids and chaos. Oh wait, I think I see a pattern here....

That their all gonna live happily ever after!?

Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.

Guts of the unit looks like this:

Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike

Painboy
Bike

Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)

Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.


Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.

Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.

DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.

Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.

Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.

So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).

Deffkoptas are a bad choice for a hammer unit and should not even be considered. While they have the advantage of scout that is only good for a biker boss delivery method, the unit itself is not suited for assault. Deffkoptas should be looking for flank attacks on vehicles and turbo boosting on objectives while avoiding combat altogether. Take those points you used to spend on biker nobs and put them into a biker painboy with a whole lot of warbikers.

Agreed.

If the Buzzsaw was either a Killsaw or only costed 10-15pts rather than 25, then i'd consider them an assault unit. A S7 AP2 attack on the charge without armorbane isnt going to reliably kill jack when its only 3 attacks. Assuming theyre alive, since if you sink that many points into them theyre bound to become a bullet magnet without the durability to survive it.

Also if the game was truely a "narrative" then space marine armies would be composed of a single squad versus the number of boyz we usually field. Composed of 3-6 marines and a sergeant or MAYBE a captain against 300+ orks and win without a single casualty.

This is the game, not the lore. There are numerous flaws comparing the game to the fluff because it would make the game utterly unplayable.

 More Dakka wrote:
either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.

Bikers.

I could see Big Shoota Deffkoptas being a retinue for a KFF Bike Mek when the purpose of the Mek is to provide cover for Battlewagons, but not an assault unit.