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"The NFL has found that 11 of the New England Patriots' 12 game balls were inflated significantly below the NFL's requirements, league sources involved and familiar with the investigation of Sunday's AFC Championship Game told ESPN."
No that's proof the balls were found underinflated, what was the reason they were? Where's the proof the patriots did anything? Your making assumptions based on your want of the patriots to be guilty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's only human we all do it so it's ok.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 17:15:51
Chance... I think it's because they were caught cheating in the past... the most damning imo was the fact that the NFL destroyed the tapes. It must have been so egregious that it would be better to suffer the PR hit in destroying the evidence than to publically disclose the tape.
They lost the benefit of doubt and it'll never go away until Belicheck/Brady retires.
Chancetragedy wrote: No that's proof the balls were found underinflated, what was the reason they were? Where's the proof the patriots did anything? Your making assumptions based on your want of the patriots to be guilty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's only human we all do it so it's ok.
Well, let's work through this one question at a time.
As for "why they were underinflated": The why of that comes down to ball grip and performance. An underinflated ball is easier to grip and grab. Given the conditions of the game, having an edge in grip certainly seems like an advantage. Now before I go on, I should note that I do not believe that the balls were why New England won. They crushed the Colts handily. That said, the "well we won anyway" defense is not really a solid when when facing these kinds of accusations. So to wrap this up, there is a distinct advantage to an interinflated ball for any player responsible for gripping or throwing the ball.
"Proof that the Patriots did anything": You're correct in that there is no smoking gun evidence that shows Brady/Belicheck/Bob the Equipment Guy deflating the balls after the NFL did the pre-game inspection. Not gonna argue that. However, this scenario does not favor the Patriots, as it tells the world that they do not monitor their checked equipment and that they allowed a third party to make an attempt at altering the game. That's not exactly a shining review of them either. Plus, I'd say it is a pretty hard story to swallow given that these balls are given by the Patriots to the NFL for pre-game inspection, then returned to the Patriots. Are you meaning to tell me that they someone managed to get through the Patriots to alter the balls? In a building full of Patriots personnel?
Absolutely that it is within the realm of possibility. But hardly anything approaching likely, imo. Of course an alternative is that some staffer wanted to help his team in a stealthy way. I could see that being the case (and again, a demonstration of the lack of control in the Pats, but hey), and in fact I'd be willing to put money on some guy falling on his sword for that reason. However way you slice it, though, the Patriots exhibited some kind of failing here. Either in lack of control if they truly didn't know what was going on (highly unlikely imo) or lack of adherence to NFL rules if it was found to be intentional. Neither of those things gets you off, however.
Finally "I just want them to be guilty": I have only stated the facts and inconsistencies. I think you're a little on the defensive here. However, the history of the Patriots, regardless of your opinion, has placed them under more scrutiny for this kind of behavior. Whether or not you think people will listen, the bottom line is that the Patriots have done this kind of shady dealing before, been found guilty of it and been punished for it. They exist under a microscope for this kind of thing. The saddest part of it all, for me anyway, is that they didn't need this nonsense. They are a great team. And it is a tragedy that, regardless of how this goes down, it is going to taint any legacy for this season.
That's exactly what I'm talking about! What happened till innocent till PROVEN guilty? Everyone WANTS the patriots to be guilty so they are projecting that.
Edit:that was toward Whembly. Not you curran
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 17:30:34
Chancetragedy wrote: That's exactly what I'm talking about! What happened till innocent till PROVEN guilty? Everyone WANTS the patriots to be guilty so they are projecting that.
As we've kinda went through, the proof is there. The balls were altered after being given back to the Patriots before the game.
The action is no longer in question, now the question of the who/when/how often is left to be answered.
That's only proof that the balls were under regulation everything else is speculation until the NFL releases their review of the situation. There are a TON of reason that could be the case. But because of something that happened almost a decade ago everyone wants the pats to be guilty of something.
Chancetragedy wrote: That's only proof that the balls were under regulation everything else is speculation until the NFL releases their review of the situation. There are a TON of reason that could be the case. But because of something that happened almost a decade ago everyone wants the pats to be guilty of something.
You're correct in that so far all we know is that the balls were under-inflated. I think it is also a reasonable assumption that, given the conditions, the Patriots are responsible for it. Whether or not that was cheating, negligence or Equipment Bob thinking he is helping out is all up to debate, but let's focus on the facts. The fact is that the balls were regulation when given to the Patriots, and then all but 1 were not suggests a failing somewhere on the part of the Patriots.
As far as the whole Spygate thing, I have to disagree with you. The fact that it has happened before (shady behavior, for a nice catchall term) places the Patriots in a position where they are under increased scrutiny and should be there. It's the same case when someone is proven to use PEDs, or another team puts out a hit list ala the Saints. While the previous action should never impact a current case, what it DOES do is put those people to a higher standard. It puts them under a tighter watch. I would think that the Patriots, knowing they have been caught toeing the wrong side of the line before, would be exceptionally vigilant about any possibility that they might stray again. But, as we see in this case, that may not be the case.
Completely agree with most of that curran.
what would your opinion on everything be if the NFL comes out and attributes the under inflation to pumping the balls to 12.5 then having the weather drop them 1.5 psi over the course of 2 hours which has been proven to be what actually happens when you inflate a ball to 12.5psi at 72degrees then bring them into 45degree rainy conditions. If this ends up being the case do you think it changes anyone's opinion?
Chancetragedy wrote: Completely agree with most of that curran.
what would your opinion on everything be if the NFL comes out and attributes the under inflation to pumping the balls to 12.5 then having the weather drop them 1.5 psi over the course of 2 hours which has been proven to be what actually happens when you inflate a ball to 12.5psi at 72degrees then bring them into 45degree rainy conditions. If this ends up being the case do you think it changes anyone's opinion?
The issue with that is the comparison to the balls provided by the Colts. Remember that each team provides balls that are used by its offense. Pats use Pats balls, Colts use Colts balls. Both teams provide those balls for inspection. While 11 of the 12 Patriots balls came back underinflated, none of the Colts balls did as far as I know (more details pending in the report, perhaps?).
As for your question, sure, if the investigation turns up a legitimate explanation for it, I'm happy to change my tune on it and focus on the Super Bowl itself.
So what's your opinion if Andrew luck is like Aaron Rodgers in that he tries to sneak balls that overinflated into circulation? If all the colts balls were on the high end then if they drop the same amount they wouldn't be underinflated.
Edit:also good for you to being willing to change your opinion on the matter if it comes out that way. I have a feeling most of the rabble rousers won't and will claim a rover Goodell bias towards Kraft. Ignoring the fact that Goodell levied the largest punishment in NFL history on the patriots for legal taping from an illegal position.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 17:53:18
Whether they get penalized or not, I'm grateful for having this:
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Chancetragedy wrote: So what's your opinion if Andrew luck is like Aaron Rodgers in that he tries to sneak balls that overinflated into circulation? If all the colts balls were on the high end then if they drop the same amount they wouldn't be underinflated.
If that comes out, it would be telling, but also truly bizarre.
Where do you get that Rodgers prefers overinflated balls? Not doubting, just curious, as everything I've read points to underinflated being better for quarterbacks.
That said, I think that scenario is exceptionally unlikely. It's not like they only inspect balls for the conference championship game. And it isn't like this was the only cold-weather game. Frankly, they probably are aware of the effects of cold and weather on ball pressure. But that is purely speculation on my part.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It was a pretty big deal here in New England earlier in the week. Not surprised it got little national attention though lol.
Just google Aaron Rodgers and see the suggested searches that popped up. There are a ton of articles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/23 18:02:51
Well, it's kinda obvious that it was a big deal in New England as they are kinda on the defensive given national football news. Not saying it is bad, they are forming up around their guys. No worries here.
About the quote. It's interesting, but it isn't anything about him trying to sneak things past officials. But that is an entirely different debate.
I'll close out by saying that clearly SOMETHING happened that was not accidental on the part of the Patriots. There was some kind of failure to either control their equipment, or to adhere to rules that will be brought to light. Past history, while it does not bend them towards guilt, rightly puts the Patriots under closer and harsher scrutiny. And, this is going more towards opinion here, the news conferences by Brady and Belicheck were not convincing me of their ignorance, particularly Brady.
Professional golf players can tell you the compression of a golf ball after hitting it one time. With a stick and hollow metal box on the end. There's not a pro caliber QB on earth who doesn't know exactly what a proper or improper ball feels like. You talking the most elite highest level of competition. These guys literally have more time handling balls than we could even imagine. They do it for a living and no one is better than them at it.
To believe Brady didn't know the balls were altered would be beyond comprehension.
Yes that something clear was the weather! And like I've stated earlier in the thread, thank god the refs noticed something was wrong because as soon as they changed the balls to ones they liked the patriots exploded and put the game away in a big way.
Also idk why it's missing from the quote but Rodgers pretty clearly said he tries to sneak them past officials over inflated hoping they don't notice. And he gets pissed at the refs when they let air out of the balls.
Also thanks for being level headed and least appearing to take facts into account over speculation. Hopefully this is all over by today. Lots of "sources" claiming the NFL will make a statement by today.
Chancetragedy wrote: Yes that something clear was the weather! And like I've stated earlier in the thread, thank god the refs noticed something was wrong because as soon as they changed the balls to ones they liked the patriots exploded and put the game away in a big way.
Also idk why it's missing from the quote but Rodgers pretty clearly said he tries to sneak them past officials over inflated hoping they don't notice. And he gets pissed at the refs when they let air out of the balls.
Also thanks for being level headed and least appearing to take facts into account over speculation. Hopefully this is all over by today. Lots of "sources" claiming the NFL will make a statement by today.
If It was the weather, why were the Colts' balls not affected? The assumption you're posing is that Luck overinflates his balls (fnar fnar fnar) and so when the weather hit, the Colts' balls deflated to normal. Meanwhile, Brady prefers underinflated, and when the weather hit, his balls went below the minimum.
That's logical, but it lacks the crucial element of Luck's preference towards overinflated balls. The best we can offer is "well Aaron Rodgers does it" and that ain't gonna fly.
i feel like we're about to circle again curran. It's about proof. Where's the proof the colts balls weren't effected? All I've read is they were "within range". That doesn't mean they weren't effected it just means that even if the weather had an effect they were still within range.
Look it's totally possible the patriots altered the balls. I've been pretty consistent with that but my opinion is clear I don't think they intentionally did it(speculative). What I'm arguing is I want proof. Outside of accusations and speculation. I want the NFL to come out and release their findings and give us real facts to work with. But as it stands right now Brady and bellichick have said they don't know why or how this happened. Why shouldn't I believe them?
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Nels thank you for posting that. The sinbad line from that KILLED me. I am now brain dead to future comedy ;p
Also curran agreed like I said hopefully this is all done by today and people can move on one way or another.
Edit:as a funny aside to "deflategate/ballghazi" the thread on the patriots forum I post on is 300 pages. For a healthy average of 60 pages of discussion a day ;p
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/23 18:43:55
Also, interesting developments down in New Orleans, with the owner essentially disowning his kids and grandkids...
Any Saints fans have some insight on that? And how it may effect the team, if at all?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 18:56:45
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lost in this whole thing is how incompetent the NFL is. They are hiring forensics teams to figure out if the patriots deflated footballs a tiny amount. But couldn't locate the Ray Rice tape in their investigations of that, lol!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 19:24:31
Chancetragedy wrote: Hahahaha wtf I can't even hate that your right. Look this whole situation sucks for the patriots and nothing anyone is gonna change the ignorant peoples opinion. So I've been trying to embrace the hate. Because the patriots clearly haven't done anything wrong and people are just being ignorant in their hate so it is what it is.
It's kind of funny... I woke up this morning with this situation on my mind. Now, I've seen the Panthers kicker.. Gano?... and he was talking about a situation in NY, in the winter, and he also noticed a "flat" ball, asked the refs, and apparently NFL rules, as they stand now, says once a ball has been inspected for game use, they cannot be "tampered" with in any way. This means that they cannot add or remove air, even on request. Now, we also have, especially in regards to the kicker, a situation where rules have changed over the years. It used to be that kickers, while warming up could "mark" a ball, and that was the ONLY ball that kicker used on kickoffs and field goals, this has changed to where now, the kicker gets the ball he gets.
Now, with the weather being cold and the occasional ball losing psi because of it isn't odd in itself. It is a tiny bit odd that damn near ALL of them for one game will do so. Of course as much as I hate the patriots and hate brady (I hate him more because of the tuck rule and the Pats because of things like Spygate, and being so damn smug all the damn time), I don't think either Brady or Bellichick in themselves did anything wrong, nor did anything where they could have "suggested" to someone else in the organization to do wrong.
What's funny is though, if this same situation happened to the Seahawks, or the Redskins or Giants, or Chiefs, etc.... The reactions would be much the same, you'd just be changing the "defending" fan base. I do recall, earlier this year, or early last season, a couple Seahawks players were suspended for PEDs/NFL Substance policy... and some of the comments were, much the same here. People (not necessarily Dakka) were saying things like, "Pete Carroll cheated at USC and you can see!!! He's back at it again!! He'll do ANYTHING to win!" When clearly the situation was these 2 players who were caught in the NFLs substance policies, meanwhile Hawks fans were like, "dude, chill out, it's a couple of players, not Carroll!"
The issue with that is the comparison to the balls provided by the Colts. Remember that each team provides balls that are used by its offense. Pats use Pats balls, Colts use Colts balls. Both teams provide those balls for inspection. While 11 of the 12 Patriots balls came back underinflated, none of the Colts balls did as far as I know (more details pending in the report, perhaps?).
Clearly the answer is that the Patriots organization didnt turn the heat/air on in the Visitors Lockeroom, and so the Colts area was much closer to the outdoor temperature
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 21:06:32
Sharp Football Analysis did a very interesting statistical analysis that shows the Patriots are an extreme statistical outlier regarding the rate at which they fumble. Basically, they're holding onto the football at a statistical rate likely to occur 1 time in 16,233. According to their analysis, this began suddenly for the Patriots starting in 2007. The math obviously can't uncover WHY this is the case, but in their words "this is an extremely abnormal occurrence and is NOT simply random fluctuation."
The SFA site seems to be down thanks to all the traffic. But here's a summary:
