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Alpharius wrote: Yeah, WELL past time to move past that particular debate/argument, please!
Indeed. It's...nice? to have confirmation that they will be identical. Not answered in the way I would have preferred it, but at least it's a straight-forward "asked-and-answered" instead of puzzling through a round of "What is restic called this week and which variation are we talking about?"
At least in the scope of this project it makes some sense. It's fairly common for board games to have standard poses and that's it. Descent, for example, does it exactly the same way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 19:53:58
I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.
I agree with this and have the same opinion. They play with them to try and maximise their final take - Though sometimes it doesn't quite work out - see DBX and the Frenzy level that started as "get everything" and got changed later to "get a lot of stuff but please buy these add-ons as well".
It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.
I have to say that I prefer the way that CMON do it (never thought I'd say that!) with their base boxes as well as the other examples of boxed boardgames that didn't play the fake-stretch-goal game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 20:06:16
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
I'm still on the fence of this given Mantic is being cryptic and being burned on the quality of some of their other KS. I think they are counting on there being a lot of SG and that people will jump on having multiple minis. They say this is a board game and not about the miniatures but they are selling it like a miniatures game. Maybe I'll be suckered in late game but since there is only one tier I don't have to worry about it vanishing at least.
lord marcus wrote: 1. It's not a greatsword, it's a long sword. long swords are 1 handed, greatswords are 2 handed.
I own real, steel examples of both types.
Wikipedia must be wrong and therefore needs to be updated as they disagree with your assessment.
Spoiler:
Longsword and bastard sword
These days, the term longsword most frequently refers to a late Medieval and Renaissance weapon designed for use with two hands. The German langes Schwert ("long sword") in 15th-century manuals did not necessarily denote a type of weapon, but the technique of fencing with both hands at the hilt.
Great sword
These include the long swords in both the Middle Ages and Renaissance, like the "outsized specimens" - between 90 cm and 120 cm - such as the Oakeshott type XIIa or Oakeshott type XIIIa. These swords can be wielded with either one hand or with two hands, but their grip may be designed specifically for one hand, two hands, or the “hand-and-half” grip where the off-hand grips the pommel, depending on the preference of the wielder. The Scottish name Claymore (Gaelic claidheamh mor, lit. "great sword") can refer to either the longsword with a distinctive two-handed grip, or the basket-hilted sword[citation needed] developing from a rapier.
The basket-hilted sword was a military sword, termed "broad" in contrast with the smallsword.[citation needed]
So we thus have "broadsword" terms that have these meanings:
Claymore
Basket-hilted sword
A sabre.
It must be noted that the term broadsword was never used historically to describe the one-handed arming sword. The arming sword was wrongly labelled a broadsword by antiquarians as the medieval swords were similar in blade width to the military swords of the day (that were also sometimes labeled as broadswords) and broader than the dueling swords and ceremonial dress swords.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 20:16:06
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, WELL past time to move past that particular debate/argument, please!
Indeed. It's...nice? to have confirmation that they will be identical. Not answered in the way I would have preferred it, but at least it's a straight-forward "asked-and-answered" instead of puzzling through a round of "What is restic called this week and which variation are we talking about?".
Worth mentioning that Mars Attacks had 10 unique sculpts per 10 martians or soldiers. Would have been nice to get some more unique sculpts in there, 3 copies of 2 different zombie sculpts isn't quite enough, will probably ditch them and use KoW zombies instead (who doesn't have a pile of those?).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 20:13:53
sukura636 wrote: Create graphics form copy pasting last one. Forget to change price. Honest mistake. Can we move on?
Do you not understand the implications? The contempt Mantic has for their loyalists is the issue. They are playing the role of the hotel owner from the old Rothschild/eggs joke, which is far from flattering to the company. Predatory price inflation is funny because it is awful, not endearing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 20:14:26
Yes, I admitted I was wrong about the pre-painted stuff, you don't want to admit that these will be 3 identical minis. And I'm sorry I didn't quote 25 lines again, I didn't find it necessary. (Stupid conversation here).
What on earth are you babbling about? How can anyone admit that they will be 3 identical minis when that hasn't been confirmed anywhere? For some reason you have a weird problem with me saying you're probably right, and that I dislike it just like you.
I'm trying to agree with you, you want to turn it into an argument.
It's a boardgame, not a GW starter box. Each monster type will be identical figures - especially since there's only going to be two of each included. It's how boardgames work. And yeah, 2 of each figure is awful. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashadalon, etc) have 42 figures in each, which includes the really large ones like the Red Dragon/Dracolich/Flesh Golem, etc. The competition in this space isn't just Descent...
Spoiler:
edit - fixed messed up tags
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Riquende wrote: Okay, I am now willing to admit that for any given '3 model' stretch goal, the 3 models will be identical:
So when I said they will probably be identical, turns out I was right. Anyway, this is annoying, for KoW crossover purposes.
Boardgame PVC is soft as anything. It'd be trivial to cut and reposition the limbs. Besides, with 3 of the skeletons it won't matter, so it'd only be on the few larger models like the undead trolls that there would be any point. Cut, pin, glue, add a shoulder pad to hide the join. Easy Peasy.
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sukura636 wrote: Create graphics form copy pasting last one. Forget to change price. Honest mistake. Can we move on?
Type rather.
Because these things aren't pre-planned in advance and are instead just made up on the spot? Please.
They're not stupid. I'm sure they have several internal "roadmaps" with varying amount/costs for the stretch goals and they chose the wrong graphics to send out twice - either based on the campaign not doing as well, or doing better than their projections.
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lord marcus wrote: the thing people don't realize is that they have some of the master sculpted, sure, but in reality they have to pay for the tooling costs, which means stretch goals for those models.
They are not fake goal.
They're selling an incomplete game for $100. These goals are as fake as a three-dollar bill. The only (likely) part of that equation that's truth is that the game will cost, say, 250k to produce and the $50k goal is also as fake as a three-dollar bill - lowballed in order to meet the funding target ASAP and end up on the KS home page's "hottest hits" or whatever it's called as a project that's met 300% or 500% of it's funding goal.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 21:10:01
I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.
I agree with this and have the same opinion. They play with them to try and maximise their final take - Though sometimes it doesn't quite work out - see DBX and the Frenzy level that started as "get everything" and got changed later to "get a lot of stuff but please buy these add-ons as well".
Spoiler:
It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.
I have to say that I prefer the way that CMON do it (never thought I'd say that!) with their base boxes as well as the other examples of boxed boardgames that didn't play the fake-stretch-goal game.
I definitely agree. I've passed on a number of kickstarters at their start because I didn't feel the value was there and once I did think the value was there I didn't back it because I was annoyed that I would have to pay an additional $30 due to passing up an early bird because they weren't more up front about what they were offering to begin with. However, since early birds are non-binding and fake stretch goals have increased in frequency I've started to take a different tact. If something even remotely interests me I bid an early bird and sit on it until the last few days when I make my decision. Aside from looking at the figures every day or so to fulfill my miniature fix, I don't read any of the communications or pay attention to how much money has been raised. If I'm right and there's already a predetermined maximum package, everything else is just the path to that end. Therefore the path is meaningless and only serves to present things that might annoy me (fake stretch goals, people complaining about paid add-ons, etc.) so I just don't bother with it.
1. It's not a greatsword, it's a long sword. long swords are 1 handed, greatswords are 2 handed.
I own real, steel examples of both types.
Seriously though. The model looks great, although I think even as a long sword its a bit derpy looking. To broad imho.
A very curious fantasy pastiche of a sword. I'd say the blade bears more resemblance to a gladius or Celtic leaf blade than any medieval sword, but the hilt is unquestionably a hand a half at the least.
It definitely fits the model though- that is one stout human! He looks like he'd fill a hall all on his own.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
This is starting to look like the 'smart play' here, if not also on most of Mantic's Kickstarters going forward.
I remember this, actually Hulksmash stated that retail was cheaper than KS, which then was carried by everyone as fact, and even Alpharius echoed it. That almost caused me to cancel my survey, until I did the math and the KS prices were demonstrably cheaper than Mantic at retail from online discounters... around here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6510/502957.page#6726517 and I was quite glad I did do the math as it saved me a TON of money by buying through the KS survey versus waiting for retail. Like, hundreds of dollars, because of the amount of stuff I got.
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agnosto wrote: I keep going back to Descent but that's the natural competition
Descent is also not fun. It's stuck in a weird hybrid of a beer and pretzels dungeon crawler and a tactical wargame, like 4th edition D&D.
For myself, Descent is a known variable. It sure is pretty, but it sure isn't fun. Descent could be eighteen cents but just because someone offers you a bag of poop for eighteen cents doesn't mean you should buy it.
Dwarf King's Dungeon Hero Journey Saga or whatever this Mantic game is called is an unknown variable. They'll be releasing the alpha rules. If they are good then my $100 will be well spent! If they are bad, then my $100 will not be spent as I'll pull my pledge: We already got burned by Myth - which was effectively as boring and complicated as Descent but with cuter art.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 23:04:11
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Honestly, the original DKH is pretty damn fun.. played it last Monday and will be playing a 4-player game next Monday.
I can't see how they'd screw it up, only ways in which it could be improved.. the whole thing really feels like a beta version of the core mechanics later used in Dreadball and Deadzone, some scenarios are fun, others suck, the opposed dice rolling is handled a bit shonkily, but it is still really fun to play and has a great feel to it.
Elves are a bit OP in Green Menace, not for the shooting (which sucks), but for their larger numbers, higher movement and more action tokens, it is such a movement-based game that being able to rush around like pixies on crack presents a lot of opportunities for a wily player to win. Sacrificing an elf to create a bottleneck/speedbump is also a powerful tactic.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/05 23:50:54
Descent is also not fun. It's stuck in a weird hybrid of a beer and pretzels dungeon crawler and a tactical wargame, like 4th edition D&D.
For myself, Descent is a known variable. It sure is pretty, but it sure isn't fun. Descent could be eighteen cents but just because someone offers you a bag of poop for eighteen cents doesn't mean you should buy it.
Dwarf King's Dungeon Hero Journey Saga or whatever this Mantic game is called is an unknown variable. They'll be releasing the alpha rules. If they are good then my $100 will be well spent! If they are bad, then my $100 will not be spent as I'll pull my pledge: We already got burned by Myth - which was effectively as boring and complicated as Descent but with cuter art.
What can I say other than YMMV. My group and I like 2nd edition Descent very much; it has depth, the missions are shorter than 1st edition and play much faster. I'll keep an eye on this because I love a good dungeon crawl but there doesn't seem to be any depth right now though Jake has some very VERY interesting plans for the rules (necromancer solo with AI heroes? yes, please.) The cards have me a bit concerned because the hero cards only have 3 stats, that's zero depth; it's a tightrope to walk between complexity and beer and pretzels but I need a bit more to the character than 3 stats or I just won't care about playing him/her.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
You don't need loads of stats to make a character, back in my day, all we had was Skill/Stamina/Luck or Combat Skill/Endurance for our adventuring.
There will probably be some interesting special rules, skills, items and hopefully pets to spice things up besides the three stats.
I'm hoping for beer and pretzels personally, it has become a huge priority with so many people I know falling into the "maybe a bit interested in board games" category, I need something in a similar vein to Loka, out of the box and playing with less than 1 minute spent on talking about how the rules work.
Mars Attacks is a wonderful set of rules. Deadzone, but no-nonsense. Opposed dice rolling is roll dice, you win, they die, with very very little in the way of modifiers to remember.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/06 00:03:03
Yeah, I got the coop campaign kit for D2E, and it's great. Owners typically get stuck playing the DM, so it's almost like playing a completely different game.
I'm looking at the various KoW sets and they're good to great prices for hobby miniatures. Mantic's gonna get my money regardless!
My group and I are in the "D&D lite" category. We want something with enough depth to keep a campaign interesting but rules-lite enough that we can enjoy each other's company and just laugh.
Descent 2E is really close to that; we wound up changing a few things to make it more to our liking but we continue to look for something different and closer to our style.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
I wonder how far this is going to stretch out, I think if backers don't start dropping out due to the lower value of the box it's going to go really high, although after the initial rush there will be an inevitable stall like all Mantic Ks's. Or so I think.
(As for the other "argument", I find it stupid to continue, yeah, you were right, you nailed it, very good for you *walks away smiling*, maybe a mod can simply erase all of it too for the sake of this KS)
It'll stall at some point, then Mantic will throw in some free goodies that more than make up for early weak stretch goals. We've all seen it enough times to understand that there will be a solid value proposition by the end.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
This is starting to look like the 'smart play' here, if not also on most of Mantic's Kickstarters going forward.
I remember this, actually Hulksmash stated that retail was cheaper than KS, which then was carried by everyone as fact, and even Alpharius echoed it. That almost caused me to cancel my survey, until I did the math and the KS prices were demonstrably cheaper than Mantic at retail from online discounters... around here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6510/502957.page#6726517 and I was quite glad I did do the math as it saved me a TON of money by buying through the KS survey versus waiting for retail. Like, hundreds of dollars, because of the amount of stuff I got.
Yep if you buy the sweet spots, like the BOGOFs and what not there are substantial savings with Mantic kickstarters - so far. If you buy the inefficient things like individual characters it's better to wait until retail. Like you I buy big so get the savings.
These savings may not be present in this KS though, in which case I'll azazelx pull my pledge.
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
It is not to everyones taste... (Here is Chris's old cartoon, he now works for Mantic Though was sadly told to cut down the in jokes!)
Spoiler:
Personally I would recommend if you have an oddball collection of Fantasy models God of Battles (currently half price on the Wargames Foundry site), but if you have the numbers KoW is at least a quick game to play and decide whether or not you like!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 05:01:20
tgmoore wrote: There is nothing unethical or even dishonest in gaming the KS system imo Azazelx.
Fair enough. But given that, I'm certainly willing to game them in return in any way possible. I do think it's borderline dishonest and certainly not upfront to not even have the actual box contents listed, and instead have a gimped box for an inflated price as "the game" initially.
Alpharius wrote: Now all we need is pretre and the circle will be complete! I still think waiting for retail is a smart play with Mantic due to overall quality concerns.
I'd love for that to not be true someday, but I suspect that IF that day ever gets here, they won't be on Kickstarter offing great deals anymore!
I'm going to sit on my pledge and not touch it (to add or subtract anything at all) until the end. Maybe even the PM. I think the $100 pledge will be worthwhile in the end, but the add-ons are certainly in "wait and see" territory. I'm certainly not ever paying for Mantic KS add-ons ever again with the sculpts unseen (or in Restic). - And that's where the retail prices are more likely to beat the KS prices anyway as opposed to the base box. I do think just 2 of each mob type is silly, though.
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
It is not to everyones taste... (Here is Chris's old cartoon, he now works for Mantic Though was sadly told to cut down the in jokes!)
Spoiler:
Personally I would recommend if you have an oddball collection of Fantasy models God of Battles (currently half price on the Wargames Foundry site), but if you have the numbers KoW is at least a quick game to play and decide whether or not you like!
There can definitely be a waithammer element to it, especially if you're playing with indecisive people, people who don't want their little armymans to die, and those afraid of getting attacked, but I'm hoping to train one of those people out of it and learn them to just fething go for it.
Still, KoW is free to download the rules and army lists for. I'm somewhat interested in looking at GoB and have been for awhile, but I need to get 80 quid worth of stuff I want from Foundry at one time to make it worthwhile with the postage and all, and frankly, that's a gakload of money to be looking for something I want when there are so many other things I really actually do want and need to save/wait for. (Saga, for example)
Azazelx wrote: I'm somewhat interested in looking at GoB and have been for awhile, but I need to get 80 quid worth of stuff I want from Foundry at one time to make it worthwhile with the postage and all, and frankly, that's a gakload of money to be looking for something I want when there are so many other things I really actually do want and need to save/wait for. (Saga, for example)
Which is a shame, as having just picked it up on the half price deal, my first read through makes me quite like it (alternate activation and control zones on units has the potential for an interesting puzzle).
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
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