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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 18:12:18
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
Ohio
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I agree that S&P would be good, but I think Perfect Timing to allow them to ignore cover would be better. Automatically Appended Next Post: (I haven't yet met a Soul Grinder who wasn't making use of a 4+ cover save).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/15 18:27:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 18:52:08
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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ForeverARookie wrote:
I agree that S&P would be good, but I think Perfect Timing to allow them to ignore cover would be better.
That doesn't fix their range issues. Honestly I think giving them both wouldn't be too insane with how Blessings work now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:10:44
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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BoomWolf wrote:
AnomanderRake-proposal countered. every single codex out there except enclaves tau once you take out the dedicated transports. and if you do count them, than everyone except enclaves, eldar and necrons.
...So you're telling me that Grey Knight Strike squads are the best Troops choice in the game except for Crisis suits. Can you tell me what you're basing that assessment on?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:14:26
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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AnomanderRake wrote: BoomWolf wrote:
AnomanderRake-proposal countered. every single codex out there except enclaves tau once you take out the dedicated transports. and if you do count them, than everyone except enclaves, eldar and necrons.
...So you're telling me that Grey Knight Strike squads are the best Troops choice in the game except for Crisis suits. Can you tell me what you're basing that assessment on?
If only there were a mention of Eldar Jetbikes earlier in the thread, he needn't have made such a mistake!
What's that? I mentioned Eldar Jetbikes among the superior troops choices already? Preposterous!
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:32:53
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Honestly it'd probably be shorter to list the Troops choices that are worse than Strike Squads. Let's see...um...hrm...Grots? Genestealers?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:37:53
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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The other thing I'd like is for Heavy Psycannons and Psycannons to be available on our vehicles.
I think a unique GK Predator would have been an awesome idea.
140 pts: Heavy Psycannon turret. Can purchase Psycannon, lascannon, and HB sponsons for 15/20/10 pts respectively. May swap the Heavy psycannon turret for a Heavy Incinerator for free.
The Landraiders should all have the option to swap their TL-Assaultcannon or HB for a TL-psycannon for 5-10 pts.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:38:50
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Grey Templar wrote:The Landraiders should all have the option to swap their TL-Assaultcannon or HB for a TL-psycannon for 5-10 pts.
You might want to look at the FW book IA2V2 book. It has some GK specific vehicles that come with the Psycannon.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 19:40:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:46:10
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Are they still valid or has that book been superseded?
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:49:52
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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It's the 2nd Ed one, so it's the most current version. You might need to self- FAQ the weapon profiles until FW does it though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:50:32
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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AnomanderRake wrote:Honestly it'd probably be shorter to list the Troops choices that are worse than Strike Squads. Let's see...um...hrm...Grots? Genestealers?
with manipulations? Tsons, Khorne Bezerkers, Hellions
Without
Cultists, Gardians, BA tactical marines, Wyches, I really want to add DE warriors
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 19:57:54
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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ClockworkZion wrote:
It's the 2nd Ed one, so it's the most current version. You might need to self- FAQ the weapon profiles until FW does it though.
Found a review.
Seems like aside from the Dreadnought its not worth it. The Redeemer seems nice, but it still has the problems Landraiders have always had.
The Dreadnought seems fun though. And I remember I bought the DCCW bit for that a while ago but never used it. Good excuse to get my Dreadnoughts out.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:01:33
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Grey Templar wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
It's the 2nd Ed one, so it's the most current version. You might need to self- FAQ the weapon profiles until FW does it though.
Found a review.
Seems like aside from the Dreadnought its not worth it. The Redeemer seems nice, but it still has the problems Landraiders have always had.
The Dreadnought seems fun though. And I remember I bought the DCCW bit for that a while ago but never used it. Good excuse to get my Dreadnoughts out.
Well the Razorback and Thunderhawk versions aren't too shabby for those who are into those sorts of things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:10:50
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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A big problem I've found with Grey Knight players in general ever since the obnoxious gak of the 5th ed codex has been addressed is that they don't even understand their own army.
Grey Knights ARE NOT! an assault.
Grey Knights are a dedicated mid-range, mobile shooting army that has the ability to finish off most targets in combat. If you try and play them as a dedicated assault army, then I'm sorry to say, you're doing it wrong.
Between Interceptors, PT Dreadknights, cheap dedicated transport, Deep Strike and/or Storm Ravens/Land Raiders, Grey Knights have absolutely 0 mobility issues.
Massed Storm Bolters provide solid anti-horde on their own, which can be further augmented by the now vastly cheaper Incinerators. Anti-MEQ can be provided by Psycannons, especially on Troops Terminators to gain the full benefits. The new Psylencers deal admirably with most multi-wound units thanks to Force.
Anti-tank can be handled through now cheaper Razorbacks, Storm Ravens and/or Land Raiders of any variety. Or else those PT Dreadknights can bring Heavy Psycannons to bear on side/rear facings, while Interceptors can pull their shunt move to get a rear armour and HP a target to death. Or else just ally in those meltaguns/dev Cents for those with 0 imagination.
All this shooting is made even better through Psychic buffing with easy Divination access.
Force weapons are a catch-all mop up ability that only falls short against 2+ saves. (and Hammers are really discounted Power Fists for feth's sake!)
All those supposedly "pointless" 1A/ap3 attacks can at least be made to count by applying Hammerhand for 0 additional cost. Or for some added investment, take the now slightly cheaper Falchions to get the +1A bonus.
As for Strikes being poo for their cost... They're not, they're simply overshadowed by Terminators thanks to those being likely a couple pts too cheap atm.
A Strike Squad is still a solid buy overall. It provides even without upgrades, quality anti-infantry shooting AND the ability to kill off weakened MEQ or 4+ save units in combat. It also is one of the only Troops units in the game which readily worries Monstrous Creatures due to both Force + Hammerhand.
Sure, they're not no.1 So what? Definitely being behind Eldar Jetbikes, Crisis Suits, their own Terminators and arguably Wraithguard isn't a bad place to be. Strikes are still easily in the top half dozen or so Troops options in the game.
Grey Knights are not hurting at all. Instead I think people had become overly spoiled by just how over the top Grey Knights really were in 5th, and don't like that everyone else has generally been brought up to a level where they can compete.
(Note: Wave Serpents not withstanding, because those serpent shields are frankly ridiculous!)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:16:39
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Why do you keep arguing 5th? 5th hasnt been a long time.
And the ones that were playing GK for how strong they were in 5th most likely moved on a while ago
GK as they exist, do have slight issue that keep them from being a well rounded-balanced army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:37:58
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Experiment 626 wrote:A big problem I've found with Grey Knight players in general ever since the obnoxious gak of the 5th ed codex has been addressed is that they don't even understand their own army.
Grey Knights ARE NOT! an assault. True. Marines in general don't make good assault oriented armies. They do best if they use Assault to clean up targets. That's not just a GK thing thought.
Grey Knights are a dedicated mid-range, mobile shooting army that has the ability to finish off most targets in combat. If you try and play them as a dedicated assault army, then I'm sorry to say, you're doing it wrong.
Between Interceptors, PT Dreadknights, cheap dedicated transport, Deep Strike and/or Storm Ravens/Land Raiders, Grey Knights have absolutely 0 mobility issues. They have some problems getting their firepower to bear, for example: Psycannons are wasted on PAGK units. Purgitors especially because they lose most of their range trying to move, and it's a 24" weapon. So this isn't completely right.
Massed Storm Bolters provide solid anti-horde on their own, which can be further augmented by the now vastly cheaper Incinerators. No, no they are not. As someone who has done massed bolters (17 Bolter in a 20 Sisters Squat with a Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Combi-Flamer), it doesn't work as well as you'd think. Sisters shoot just as well as GK do, and can put out more firepower at 12" in such a formation than GK can and I've still seen such a squad unable to kill hordes properly. You know what really kills hordes? Long range large blast templates so you don't have to be potentially in charge range while shooting.
Anti- MEQ can be provided by Psycannons, especially on Troops Terminators to gain the full benefits. And only on Terminators (or FW vehicles) because on Power Armor Salvo just doesn't work so well when you're firing 12" on the move (giving them a max threat range of 18" with 2 shots).
The new Psylencers deal admirably with most multi-wound units thanks to Force. Only against things of a low enough toughness value. And honestly it's S4, AP- so you need to be really lucky to make it actually auto-kill something. Plus you need to spend warp charges on force. And be close enough to bring it to bear on the enemy, which if you don't kill can charge and kill you instead.
Anti-tank can be handled through now cheaper Razorbacks, Storm Ravens and/or Land Raiders of any variety. Razorback Spam isn't really an effective strategy. Neither is a 200+ point model being used to kill 90 point tanks.
Or else those PT Dreadknights can bring Heavy Psycannons to bear on side/rear facings, One of the few outstanding units in the book for sure.
while Interceptors can pull their shunt move to get a rear armour and HP a target to death. Honestly they seem better with Incinerators to me just because the Psycannon would still suffer range issues otherwise. They aren't relentless afterall.
Or else just ally in those meltaguns/ dev Cents for those with 0 imagination. Ah yes "ally your problems away instead of being able to play a complete army without them". My Sisters know that claim all too well. If you need allies to solve problems then the book isn't balanced.
All this shooting is made even better through Psychic buffing with easy Divination access. All of which is deniable, and is only available on a couple of models who would need multiple FOCs to spam properly to make it really work and ensure you get the powers you need.
Force weapons are a catch-all mop up ability that only falls short against 2+ saves. (and Hammers are really discounted Power Fists for feth's sake!) Hammers are cheap becasue the models already come with Force Weapons. And as proven, they are not superior enough in close combat to be costed the way they are versus Tactical Marines. The damage potential just isn't high enough. And PAGK lose those weapons to take their special/heavy weapons
All those supposedly "pointless" 1A/ap3 attacks can at least be made to count by applying Hammerhand for 0 additional cost. Or for some added investment, take the now slightly cheaper Falchions to get the +1A bonus. Deniable, and has risks if you fail to get it off. And Falchions bump Strike Squads to 24 points a model.
As for Strikes being poo for their cost... They're not, they're simply overshadowed by Terminators thanks to those being likely a couple pts too cheap atm. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....*ahem*. You must be ignoring all the posts that have showing that they aren't worth the 6 point increase over a Tactical's 14ppm cost. I mean Tacticals aren't considered to be worth 14ppm, so why would a model that is just as fragile versus the plethora of AP3/2 shooting in the game be worth 20? They're so fragile that they need some points off.
A Strike Squad is still a solid buy overall. It provides even without upgrades, quality anti-infantry shooting AND the ability to kill off weakened MEQ or 4+ save units in combat. It also is one of the only Troops units in the game which readily worries Monstrous Creatures due to both Force + Hammerhand. It's an effing mess that is middle of the road on everything but priced like an Elite unit. It's too generalist for any job and that's a major problem for it's elite cost.
Sure, they're not no.1 So what? Definitely being behind Eldar Jetbikes, Crisis Suits, their own Terminators and arguably Wraithguard isn't a bad place to be. Strikes are still easily in the top half dozen or so Troops options in the game. Behind a lot of things. I'd rate them under Tact Marines and Sisters because the other two can bring more bodies which at least helps mitigate some of their problems a little bit. GKSS are so expensive that they can't even make up for their short comings with more bodies.
Grey Knights are not hurting at all. Instead I think people had become overly spoiled by just how over the top Grey Knights really were in 5th, and don't like that everyone else has generally been brought up to a level where they can compete. I honestly feel the pendulum swung too far the other way honestly. Yes, some of the OP got toned down the way it should and they generally feel more like they should, but they had their teeth kicked in other ways (Grand Masters and Captains aren't really worth taking, Crowe can't rend anymore, Purgitors are a crappy HS slot choice now). So now, they aren't "balanced" and honestly they don't feel competetive.
(Note: Wave Serpents not withstanding, because those serpent shields are frankly ridiculous!) About the only thing in this post I agree with. Serpent Shields are ridiculous.
Responses are in yellow.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:46:23
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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WrentheFaceless wrote:Why do you keep arguing 5th? 5th hasnt been a long time.
And the ones that were playing GK for how strong they were in 5th most likely moved on a while ago
GK as they exist, do have slight issue that keep them from being a well rounded-balanced army
^Six infantry units, costing at absolute minimum 20PPM, running around with all of four guns for the entire non-vehicle army.
In short, GK today are running with the exact same problem 3e Necrons had. They can't specialize enough to kill anything efficiently and their loadout of jack-of-all-trades units makes everyone so expensive it's impossible to do anything. Taking away the Inquisition content that filled the gaps in the 3e and 5e books just makes the problem more obvious. The size of the Codex and the model range is closer to a mini-Codex than an actual full book, it's like trying to play an entire army of Legion of the Damned. They just don't have enough of the tools they'd need to play.as a stand-alone book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:50:44
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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AnomanderRake wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Why do you keep arguing 5th? 5th hasnt been a long time.
And the ones that were playing GK for how strong they were in 5th most likely moved on a while ago
GK as they exist, do have slight issue that keep them from being a well rounded-balanced army
^Six infantry units, costing at absolute minimum 20PPM, running around with all of four guns for the entire non-vehicle army.
In short, GK today are running with the exact same problem 3e Necrons had. They can't specialize enough to kill anything efficiently and their loadout of jack-of-all-trades units makes everyone so expensive it's impossible to do anything. Taking away the Inquisition content that filled the gaps in the 3e and 5e books just makes the problem more obvious. The size of the Codex and the model range is closer to a mini-Codex than an actual full book, it's like trying to play an entire army of Legion of the Damned. They just don't have enough of the tools they'd need to play.as a stand-alone book.
Exactly this. The points costing is too high to try and fill gaps with bodies too boot.
They're just in a bad place right now, and I'm hoping they'll get a late edition update with new models/units that weren't ready to release right now. It's pretty clear that GK got an update because the new edition broke their psychic powers, not because they were really ready for a proper update.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:55:38
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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We were definitely a mid-range shooty army in 5th, but not anymore. The loss of Psybolts and the change to Salvo for Psycannons changed that.
We lost a fair chunk of mid-ranged shooting potential in exchange for greater mobility and better melee.
We aren't in a bad place, but its not a great one either. It takes me back to Codex: Daemon Hunters(just not as bad)
Success will be determined by skill with the codex. We'll need to be better generals. Fortunately the codex at least gives us the tools to succeed, just not the best tools.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 20:56:12
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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To 626's long post and Zion's long response I won't quote here for brevity, and referring back to my earlier remarks, the problem is the idea that you can have one fairly balanced unit that does everything. If it does everything well for its cost there's no reason to ever take anything else and it's broken, if it does everything okay for its cost it will be outperformed by two cheaper specialist units.
Point-for-point Grey Knights have the least cost-effective mobility, shooting, durability, and assault of anyone around; the only point in their favor is that all of those are tied to units that do more than one thing.
The solution has to drop the assumption that Grey Knights are a generalist army. Step away from the assumption that every model has a force weapon, allow different units to specialize instead of keeping them set up as "the same, only with extra guns", broaden the range of guns, and try and spread functions across more different units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 21:11:09
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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As a question, who thinks Tactical Marines aren't worth 14pts per model? 4s across the board, 3+ saves, frag and krak grenades on every model, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads and an excellent selection of special- and heavy-weapons and transports.
AnomanderRake wrote:To 626's long post and Zion's long response I won't quote here for brevity, and referring back to my earlier remarks, the problem is the idea that you can have one fairly balanced unit that does everything. If it does everything well for its cost there's no reason to ever take anything else and it's broken, if it does everything okay for its cost it will be outperformed by two cheaper specialist units.
Point-for-point Grey Knights have the least cost-effective mobility, shooting, durability, and assault of anyone around; the only point in their favor is that all of those are tied to units that do more than one thing.
The solution has to drop the assumption that Grey Knights are a generalist army. Step away from the assumption that every model has a force weapon, allow different units to specialize instead of keeping them set up as "the same, only with extra guns", broaden the range of guns, and try and spread functions across more different units.
I agree, but then I think this is more an argument for why GKs shouldn't be a separate codex in the first place. There's just not enough substance to stretch into an entire book.
Anyway, in terms of making them less all-rounders, what do you think GK strike squads should look like in terms of gear and price?
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 21:13:59
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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vipoid wrote:As a question, who thinks Tactical Marines aren't worth 14pts per model? 4s across the board, 3+ saves, frag and krak grenades on every model, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads and an excellent selection of special- and heavy-weapons and transports.
The massed AP2/3 shooting really negates that 3+ save, and those weapons and transports are an additional cost that you NEED to pay to make the unit better. I'm not saying that Marines should be 10 points, but at this point they need to go down in points (that or the whole game needs to inflate all the points to make distinctions between models be cleaner).
vipoid wrote:I agree, but then I think this is more an argument for why GKs shouldn't be a separate codex in the first place. There's just not enough substance to stretch into an entire book.
I think there can be, but more needs to be added to the codex. More units, more weapon options.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 21:19:51
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I think Tactical marines are overcosted, but its a problem you can live with because they're just there to fill troops slots and be melta/plasma/grav guns with ablative wounds that have Objective Secured.
On the other hand, GKs can't live with 20 pt Strike Marines because they're far too expensive in a codex full of expensive units and they can't even be Psycannons on a stick with ablative wounds effectively. If Psycannons had a 36" range, maybe. But at 24" it just doesn't work.
And thats ignoring that the workhorse of the codex also occupies the Troops slot and does the exact same thing the GKSS is supposed to do, just better while also being more durable per pt.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 23:06:47
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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vipoid wrote:As a question, who thinks Tactical Marines aren't worth 14pts per model? 4s across the board, 3+ saves, frag and krak grenades on every model, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads and an excellent selection of special- and heavy-weapons and transports.
AnomanderRake wrote:To 626's long post and Zion's long response I won't quote here for brevity, and referring back to my earlier remarks, the problem is the idea that you can have one fairly balanced unit that does everything. If it does everything well for its cost there's no reason to ever take anything else and it's broken, if it does everything okay for its cost it will be outperformed by two cheaper specialist units.
Point-for-point Grey Knights have the least cost-effective mobility, shooting, durability, and assault of anyone around; the only point in their favor is that all of those are tied to units that do more than one thing.
The solution has to drop the assumption that Grey Knights are a generalist army. Step away from the assumption that every model has a force weapon, allow different units to specialize instead of keeping them set up as "the same, only with extra guns", broaden the range of guns, and try and spread functions across more different units.
I agree, but then I think this is more an argument for why GKs shouldn't be a separate codex in the first place. There's just not enough substance to stretch into an entire book.
Anyway, in terms of making them less all-rounders, what do you think GK strike squads should look like in terms of gear and price?
Baseline make GK 17-18pts, drop the Nemesis Force Weapon idea entirely. Give them some other sort of sword instead. Broaden their arsenal of guns a bit; at the very least something with a range of longer than 24" (I'm a big proponent of bringing psycannons back to Heavy 3/36" or Assault 3/18") and something with Melta. Give the Justicar the option to choose between a set of psychic powers; a cover buff, Hammerhand, a shooting buff (possibly Ignores Cover). Option to purchase some Nemesis weapons to the unit. Give Interceptors more access to shorter-ranged guns and Nemesis weapons but no shooting buff and no longer-ranged guns, Purgators get no Hammerhand and no Nemesis weapons but more longer-ranged guns, Purifiers mix and match.
Concepts only here, I do have a 6e fan Daemonhunters book floating about but I haven't had a chance to rework it for 7e so the precise numbers may be off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 23:08:49
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 23:59:19
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
Ohio
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It'd be so easy to make each unit in the Grey Knight Codex unique. The rules already exist that fit the Fluff. It's practically gift wrapped.
Strike Squads: Exchange "Deep Strike" for "Infiltrate". Fluff reason is because the Strike Squads teleport in early with Teleport Homers to benefit the Terminators when they arrive. The Meta reason is so the Terminators actually have a chance to benefit from Teleport Homers when they arrive.
Purgation Squads' "Night Vision" needs to be replaced with "Perfect Timing" from the Divination discipline. In the previous Codex they had a unique power that allowed them to ignore Lind of Sight. Having a power to ignore cover saves is a good substitute, whereas Night vision is not.
Hammerhand isn't very useful for a Purgation Squad, so that would do well to be exchanged for Slow and Purposeful.
They definitely need Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles as options. high-strength, long range, and anti-air are three major shortcomings of the Grey Knights, and this already well ballanced weapon could do wanders for helping fill all three rolls.
Purifier Squads: Exchange Purifying Flame with Fiery Form from the Pyromancy discipline. It improves their survivability, and makes them the fire elementals they're supposed to be on the battlefield.
Interceptors already have Personal Teleporters, so they're fine.
So, Strike Squads would fill a support role for the Terminators, Purgation squads would provide ranged heavy weapons support, Purifiers are truly an elite army capable of strong ranged and close combat fighting, and Interceptors are the highly mobile infantry.
No new models needed, and the units are wonderfully varied, and each fills a specific role, moving away from the impossible to balance jack of all trades, master of none that most of these units currently are. Automatically Appended Next Post: ClockworkZion wrote:@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
Making the Force Weapons an upgrade and taking the points off of the base model's cost would be wonderful for ranged units.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 00:04:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/16 00:55:25
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
Making the Force Weapons an upgrade and taking the points off of the base model's cost would be wonderful for ranged units.
While true, I meant that outside of Librarians to remove Force Weapons completely and make them regular CCWs (save the Hammer, make it a Thunderhammer basically, and keep the special rules on the others, just drop the AP off the other ones) with some kind of bonus versus Daemons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 00:56:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/16 01:00:54
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners
Ohio
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ClockworkZion wrote:ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
Making the Force Weapons an upgrade and taking the points off of the base model's cost would be wonderful for ranged units.
While true, I meant that outside of Librarians to remove Force Weapons completely and make them regular CCWs (save the Hammer, make it a Thunderhammer basically, and keep the special rules on the others, just drop the AP off the other ones) with some kind of bonus versus Daemons.
I wouldn't go that far. I see your point, but I'm not sure if my reservation is sentiment, or meta.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/16 02:35:28
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
Making the Force Weapons an upgrade and taking the points off of the base model's cost would be wonderful for ranged units.
While true, I meant that outside of Librarians to remove Force Weapons completely and make them regular CCWs (save the Hammer, make it a Thunderhammer basically, and keep the special rules on the others, just drop the AP off the other ones) with some kind of bonus versus Daemons.
I wouldn't go that far. I see your point, but I'm not sure if my reservation is sentiment, or meta.
My thought is that by going to the "special CCW" route we could drop models upwards to 4ppm if they have just the basic sword without unbalancing things. They'd still need to pay for an upgrade, but they'd come out cheaper in the long run.
But that's just a thought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/16 07:20:21
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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ClockworkZion wrote:ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:ForeverARookie wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?
Making the Force Weapons an upgrade and taking the points off of the base model's cost would be wonderful for ranged units.
While true, I meant that outside of Librarians to remove Force Weapons completely and make them regular CCWs (save the Hammer, make it a Thunderhammer basically, and keep the special rules on the others, just drop the AP off the other ones) with some kind of bonus versus Daemons.
I wouldn't go that far. I see your point, but I'm not sure if my reservation is sentiment, or meta.
My thought is that by going to the "special CCW" route we could drop models upwards to 4ppm if they have just the basic sword without unbalancing things. They'd still need to pay for an upgrade, but they'd come out cheaper in the long run.
But that's just a thought.
So you wont remove the gear that is the reason for their minor point increase yet still expect to be a normal marine with ml1 and an ap3 ccw.... Where's the logic to that?...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/16 08:25:23
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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total did you not read that page?
He is stating that perhaps removing the AP3 weapon would justify the 4ppm decrease.
Also the ML is chapter tactics, MOVING ON!
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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