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Yes it is the banishment spell targetable only against demons.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Comparing BSS to Guard Vets shows a 6 point gain for very little, but you go up a point you get a CSM who is better well rounded than a Sister. Add another point and you get a Tact Marine.

Points costs versus other codexes are basically meaningless.

More accurately, SoB are badly-priced. Likewise, either CSMs should be cheaper, or Tactical Marines should be more expensive. Not sure which.

Bad pricing in one instance does not justify further instances.

MT also cost 12 points. Space Marine Scouts cost 10. Pricing is determined based on how they fit into the army, not how they compare to other armies and it's become pretty apparent after looking around at things that trying to argue that things are over/under priced based on other books is just down right silly. The devs don't seem to approach points costing that way, so I don't see a need to try and shoe horn in something that the game doesn't even follow as a standard when trying to justify points costs of things anymore.

MTs and scouts are seriously a bad comparison, given that the two have alot of differences.
MTs get BS4 to scouts 3 yet S,T and I 3 to scout 4
MTs got 2 attacks, scouts have 1
MTs got S3AP3 guns, scouts S4AP5
MTs get deepstirke to the scouts ATSKNF, CT, scout and infiltrate
MTs got orders, scouts got no comparable synergy
The two have vastly different upgrade choices.


While the MTs ARE overpriced at 12, and the scouts cost 11, not 10, the two are not a good comparison because beyond the armor save, the two are nothing alike.
Strikes and tacticals however, both share the same MeQ base.

As for the SoB and CSM point costs minor difference where "codex marines get in that 1 point that much more so you should not compare cross-codex", they are both wildly considered overcosted and should drop by a point.
Also SoB get 6+ and the AoF, that the CSM do not have, so the CSM are not a straight upgrade for that 1 point, unlike CSM to codex marine who are a strict upgrade over the CSM. (though 1 point to gain +1 to WS, S, T and I and lose act of faith and 6++ is probably a good trade, it is not a strict upgrade, and while the CSM get boons over the codex, the forced challenges are questionably a negative.)

 ClockworkZion wrote:

No it's not. If the game doesn't have things points balanced with each other externally then arguing about balanced based on external points costs is just as pointless as a dog chasing it's own tail: in the end you end up tired and you achieve nothing.

That's what we want from GW, not how it actually works. Try to not confuse the two.

When GW actually fixes external balance, then you have an argument, until then no dice.

Your argument seems to be that GW won't fix external balance, so why even bother posting in a thread about balance?

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

No it's not. If the game doesn't have things points balanced with each other externally then arguing about balanced based on external points costs is just as pointless as a dog chasing it's own tail: in the end you end up tired and you achieve nothing.

That's what we want from GW, not how it actually works. Try to not confuse the two.

When GW actually fixes external balance, then you have an argument, until then no dice.

Your argument seems to be that GW won't fix external balance, so why even bother posting in a thread about balance?

External balance was the counter argument on why GKSS should never get cheaper. My counter point to that is that there is no relative pricing based externally and the only balance GW does is internally so it doesn't matter what they cost relative to a Tact Marine in the end. The balance that was brought up originally in that regard was internal, the way it was argued to try and kill that idea was external, but if external doesn't matter (and until GW repoints costs the entire game it doesn't) then it doesn't matter if they're 1 point or 10 over a Tact Marine as long as they feel appropriately costed for what they do inside their own codex.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

External balance was the counter argument on why GKSS should never get cheaper.

Not exactly - it's a counterargument for why they shouldn't get cheaper whilst retaining a ton of already heavily-discounted gear.

Would you be happy if SM players said "Well, our tactical marines rarely use their frag grenades, so we'll get rid of them and knock 3pts off their cost. That's fair, right?"

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My counter point to that is that there is no relative pricing based externally and the only balance GW does is internally so it doesn't matter what they cost relative to a Tact Marine in the end.

This only works if GKs never play any army other than GKs.

Otherwise, external balance remains just as important as internal balance - if not more so.

You're right, GW doesn't put enough effort into external balance, nor does it put much into internal balance. Hence why the Pyrovore has been crap for 2 codices now. However, that doesn't make external balance any less important - especially if your goal is to improve balance, rather than just making GKs more powerful. GW just suck at writing rules.

Look at it this way - if external balance is irrelevant, why not just halve the cost of all GK units, with a 66% reduction for Strike Squads and other underused units. Psycannons can be 72" and Assault 10, Incinerators will balance that with S10 AP2 torrent flamers, and Psilencers will be 24" S4 Assault 20 Force and Entropic Strike. All that's important is that they all end up balanced against one another - even if it just means being equally-broken against any other army.

If you ignore external balance, then it's just free reign. Hell, strike squads could be 1pt per model. What does it matter as long as the rest of the book is balanced around that?

I know these are extreme examples, but the point is that you should rely on external factors to set the power of a book - internal balance alone is meaningless.

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

External balance was the counter argument on why GKSS should never get cheaper.

Not exactly - it's a counterargument for why they shouldn't get cheaper whilst retaining a ton of already heavily-discounted gear.

Would you be happy if SM players said "Well, our tactical marines rarely use their frag grenades, so we'll get rid of them and knock 3pts off their cost. That's fair, right?"

You mean the grenades that used to cost 1pt before you got them for free?

And it's an argument that doesn't hold up based on how GW has made the game. If we had external balance Sisters wouldn't be paying 6 points over a Vet Marine while being 1pt cheaper than a CSM (and he wouldn't be 1 pt cheaper than a model who gains Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF over that. Heck, Chapter Tactics wouldn't even be free!).

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My counter point to that is that there is no relative pricing based externally and the only balance GW does is internally so it doesn't matter what they cost relative to a Tact Marine in the end.

This only works if GKs never play any army other than GKs.

Otherwise, external balance remains just as important as internal balance - if not more so.

Then it matters just as much when Tact Marines play Sisters or CSM, but people don't complain about how unfair their buffs are for their points. It's an argument that would be important if the thing you claim actually existed. But it doesn't, so it's a pointless argument that doesn't actually mean anything in this game. It's like putting a points cost on the color blue: it doesn't do diddly.

 vipoid wrote:
You're right, GW doesn't put enough effort into external balance, nor does it put much into internal balance. Hence why the Pyrovore has been crap for 2 codices now. However, that doesn't make external balance any less important - especially if your goal is to improve balance, rather than just making GKs more powerful. GW just suck at writing rules.

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer, at least not in the way you're claiming.

 vipoid wrote:
Look at it this way - if external balance is irrelevant, why not just halve the cost of all GK units, with a 66% reduction for Strike Squads and other underused units. Psycannons can be 72" and Assault 10, Incinerators will balance that with S10 AP2 torrent flamers, and Psilencers will be 24" S4 Assault 20 Force and Entropic Strike. All that's important is that they all end up balanced against one another - even if it just means being equally-broken against any other army.

Now whose being silly? I said points costs aren't externally balanced. And for the GKSS to feel more appropiately costed I was recommending a 2 point deduction, not a 13pt deduction.

 vipoid wrote:
If you ignore external balance, then it's just free reign. Hell, strike squads could be 1pt per model. What does it matter as long as the rest of the book is balanced around that?

My counter argument was to point out why it didn't matter externally if GKSS got a 2ppm deduction, not a 19ppm one. You're blowing things out of proportion to try and win through arguing a slippery slope. Which I don't buy. I don't think knocking 10 points of a GKSS (+10 more at full size) can break the game. Heck, if you took 3 full squads the savings wouldn't even be enough to buy a 4th. It means a little more could fit into the army, not a lot more.

My responses in red.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You mean the grenades that used to cost 1pt before you got them for free?

I thought the cost was added to the models? That's what I remember hearing, anyway. I don't actually play SM though, so you could well be right.

And it's an argument that doesn't hold up based on how GW has made the game. If we had external balance Sisters wouldn't be paying 6 points over a Vet Marine while being 1pt cheaper than a CSM (and he wouldn't be 1 pt cheaper than a model who gains Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF over that. Heck, Chapter Tactics wouldn't even be free!).

I agree - those things aren't balanced.

But, once again, ignoring external balance doesn't improve balance. You just end up putting out the same atrociously-balanced crap GW has been churning out for the last decade or so.

Then it matters just as much when Tact Marines play Sisters or CSM, but people don't complain about how unfair their buffs are for their points. It's an argument that would be important if the thing you claim actually existed. But it doesn't, so it's a pointless argument that doesn't actually mean anything in this game. It's like putting a points cost on the color blue: it doesn't do diddly.

You're right - it does matter on those occasions. And many people do complain about the poor balance between books like that. Hell, if you wish to start a thread on that subject, I'll happily back you up.

But, if you're going to ignore balance because 'GW does it too', then why bother at all? Because, you're not improving balance.

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer, at least not in the way you're claiming.

I don't understand your point here. I have never once claimed that a 2pts per model discount on GKSS would be a game changer. Are you sure you're not mixing me up with someone else?

Bear in mind, you're not the only person in this thread with suggestions. And, many of the others I've seen have been significantly more than '-2pts per model'.

Now whose being silly? I said points costs aren't externally balanced. And for the GKSS to feel more appropiately costed I was recommending a 2 point deduction, not a 13pt deduction.

I didn't say you were suggesting that - I was pointing out the absurdity in ignoring external balance.

My counter argument was to point out why it didn't matter externally if GKSS got a 2ppm deduction, not a 19ppm one. You're blowing things out of proportion to try and win through arguing a slippery slope. Which I don't buy. I don't think knocking 10 points of a GKSS (+10 more at full size) can break the game. Heck, if you took 3 full squads the savings wouldn't even be enough to buy a 4th. It means a little more could fit into the army, not a lot more.

You're moving the goalposts. Previously, you were claiming that external balance is irrelevant. Now you're saying that a 2pts per model discount is externally balanced.

So, are you ignoring external balance (in which case, why are you then saying a 2pt per model decrese is justifiable externally), or you're not ignoring external balance (in which case, you have to accept comparisons with models in different books)?

Also, I just know this will create another argument, but I think I should ask it anyway: The current problem is that terminators are better than GKSS in most cases. So, wouldn't another possibility be to raise the cost of terminators?

Grenades may have originally cost points, but since Marines have gotten cheaper you definitely have them for free now.

And I was just saying that the reasoning behind preventing a points drop because of external balance was foolish when the game doesn't have an external balance based on points. I'm not arguing for a massive point drop, just enough of one to make GKSS feel more worth their points because they feel overcosted based on how fragile they are.

And Terminators finally hit a points cost where they feel worth it for a change. I honestly hope all Terminators get a similar points drop because they have always felt overcosted. Even if you up their points you don't make GKSS feel appropriately costed, you just make Terminators feel less appropriately costed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grenades may have originally cost points, but since Marines have gotten cheaper you definitely have them for free now.

And I was just saying that the reasoning behind preventing a points drop because of external balance was foolish when the game doesn't have an external balance based on points. I'm not arguing for a massive point drop, just enough of one to make GKSS feel more worth their points because they feel overcosted based on how fragile they are.

And Terminators finally hit a points cost where they feel worth it for a change. I honestly hope all Terminators get a similar points drop because they have always felt overcosted. Even if you up their points you don't make GKSS feel appropriately costed, you just make Terminators feel less appropriately costed.

It's the grandfather-clause points thing. SM Terminators are 40ppm because they've always been 40ppm, sort of like how power weapons/plasma pistols are 15ppm because they always have been, despite the excessiveness of that price.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Grenades may have originally cost points, but since Marines have gotten cheaper you definitely have them for free now.

Good point.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And I was just saying that the reasoning behind preventing a points drop because of external balance was foolish when the game doesn't have an external balance based on points. I'm not arguing for a massive point drop, just enough of one to make GKSS feel more worth their points because they feel overcosted based on how fragile they are.

And, all I'm saying is that if you ignore external balance for small, reasonable suggestions (like yours), then you also have to ignore it for less-reasonable suggestions - which seems like a bad idea.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

It's the grandfather-clause points thing. SM Terminators are 40ppm because they've always been 40ppm, sort of like how power weapons/plasma pistols are 15ppm because they always have been, despite the excessiveness of that price.

Both instances seem silly at the moment.

Terminators remained at 40pts despite a lot of other marine units receiving significant price drops. And, other than TH/SS, they weren't even particularly good in 5th.

I believe Plasma Pistols were originally priced at 15pts because they could fire twice. Now, they only get one shot, yet the high cost remains.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's the grandfather-clause points thing. SM Terminators are 40ppm because they've always been 40ppm, sort of like how power weapons/plasma pistols are 15ppm because they always have been, despite the excessiveness of that price.

Plasma guns/pistols would be a better example since Power Weapons did dip to 10 points for Sisters and Guard for a while.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Plasma guns/pistols would be a better example since Power Weapons did dip to 10 points for Sisters and Guard for a while.

Then went back up again because God forbid anyone get cheaper weapons than marines.

"What's that? You think you should get them cheaper because you have worse WS, strength and initiative? Well it's your own fault for not playing SPESS MEHREENS!"

No, I'm not bitter. Why do you ask...?

I play Sisters. At this point I am totally bitter.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
Do gk units automatically get their primaris since their powers are all sanctic?

Yes, but not because they have Psychic Focus. Every GK unit that has listed psychic powers has Banishment listed in their unit profile.

The reason they don't have Psychic Focus is covered in the Psychic Phase section of the Rulebook. The only way to gain Psychic Focus is to 'generate' powers, which can only be done if the psychic powers are not stated in the unit's entry.

Number of Psychic Powers wrote:A Psyker’s entry will usually state how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below.

Psychic Focus wrote:If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

So the answer is yes, all GK units have Banishment (unless you're generating powers from the Rulebook with a Librarian or Grand Master) but technically not because they have Psychic Focus.

DoW

basicly per the rules they'd not get it automaticly, but GW has given it to them so... effectivly yeah

Ok. Thanks. I didn't have the dex in front of me and it had been bugging me all day

Here are a few things I would do:

1. Give grand masters back their old statline, and give back their orbital strike.

2. Allow for extra warp-charge generation, possibly by giving any Justicars access to ML "1.5", which would allow them to generate an extra casting OR deny dice once per game turn.

3. Re-introduce psybolt ammunition as something that is actually a threat to the things it is designed to kill.
--3.1: Have it change the storm bolter's profile to S4 AP- Assault 2, psybolt. Psybolt - successful wounds caused by this weapon force a unit to take a Daemonic Instability test, using half the number of wounds caused by weapons with the Psybolt rule as the net close-combat result.
--3.2: Have it use the old Codex: Daemonhunters rule; S4 AP4 Assault 2, ignores invulnerable saves
--3.3: Character/paladin only upgrade that gives their bolter the force special rule, but requires its own force test.

4. Allow any GK vehicle to be upgrade to a Psychic Pilot, making it a ML1 vehicle, but never benefits from psychic focus. (15 points?)

5. Purgation Squad: Unit gets a special 1 WC psychic power instead of hammerhand. Gives unit relentless-lite (lets them move & shoot full, but not shoot & assault) and extends the range of their psycannons/psylencers by 12", and gives incinerators torrent.

All I've got for now.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Here are a few things I would do:

1. Give grand masters back their old statline, and give back their orbital strike.

2. Allow for extra warp-charge generation, possibly by giving any Justicars access to ML "1.5", which would allow them to generate an extra casting OR deny dice once per game turn.

3. Re-introduce psybolt ammunition as something that is actually a threat to the things it is designed to kill.
--3.1: Have it change the storm bolter's profile to S4 AP- Assault 2, psybolt. Psybolt - successful wounds caused by this weapon force a unit to take a Daemonic Instability test, using half the number of wounds caused by weapons with the Psybolt rule as the net close-combat result.
--3.2: Have it use the old Codex: Daemonhunters rule; S4 AP4 Assault 2, ignores invulnerable saves
--3.3: Character/paladin only upgrade that gives their bolter the force special rule, but requires its own force test.

4. Allow any GK vehicle to be upgrade to a Psychic Pilot, making it a ML1 vehicle, but never benefits from psychic focus. (15 points?)

5. Purgation Squad: Unit gets a special 1 WC psychic power instead of hammerhand. Gives unit relentless-lite (lets them move & shoot full, but not shoot & assault) and extends the range of their psycannons/psylencers by 12", and gives incinerators torrent.

All I've got for now.

wait, so you think that in order to balance the codex, they need tremendous buffs? Why? They are doing well competitively now, so why change it? I understand that there is a lack of choice, but so what? Many armies have few builds so get over it.

StarHunter25 wrote:
1. Give grand masters back their old statline, and give back their orbital strike.

Any particular reason?

StarHunter25 wrote:

2. Allow for extra warp-charge generation, possibly by giving any Justicars access to ML "1.5", which would allow them to generate an extra casting OR deny dice once per game turn.

Seems a bit unnecessary. Considering that all their units have mastery levels, they already generate more warp charges than most other armies in the game.

StarHunter25 wrote:

3. Re-introduce psybolt ammunition as something that is actually a threat to the things it is designed to kill.
--3.1: Have it change the storm bolter's profile to S4 AP- Assault 2, psybolt. Psybolt - successful wounds caused by this weapon force a unit to take a Daemonic Instability test, using half the number of wounds caused by weapons with the Psybolt rule as the net close-combat result.
--3.2: Have it use the old Codex: Daemonhunters rule; S4 AP4 Assault 2, ignores invulnerable saves
--3.3: Character/paladin only upgrade that gives their bolter the force special rule, but requires its own force test.

I think the latter two would be a bit much. Basic weapons that ignore invulnerable saves seem... dubious, and making them Force is cutting into Psilencer territory.

What about if their Psybolt gave their storm bolters +1S if the target unit is a Daemon and/or contains 1 or more psykers?

(That's just off the top of my head, so apologies if it's a silly idea.)

SGTPozy wrote:
I understand that there is a lack of choice, but so what? Many armies have few builds so get over it.

NO.

Stop. Go back, read the thread. Do whatever you want, but for the love of Gork, STOP with the bleedin' "get over it!" posts. Why is it OK that a book has horrific internal balance just because other do too?!

StarHunter25 wrote:


5. Purgation Squad: Unit gets a special 1 WC psychic power instead of hammerhand. Gives unit relentless-lite (lets them move & shoot full, but not shoot & assault) and extends the range of their psycannons/psylencers by 12", and gives incinerators torrent.

All I've got for now.

This is kind of what I had in mind as well; it would actually make Purgation squads a viable choice in the heavy support slot. I wouldn't let the power give all of that to them though, what I had in mind was a blanket power that affected each weapon separately:
1. Storm Bolters get +1S (so the guys without special/heavy weapons aren't left out).
2. Psilencers get rending
3. Psycannons get +12" range (that or maybe -1AP)
4. Incinerators get 12" torrent

The unit gets some special training that give them relentless but slow and purposeful. (not a psychic power)

I'd seriously think about take a squad of them like that and your opponent always has the chance to DtW when you try your psychic power.... make it WC2 maybe?

 agnosto wrote:


The unit gets some special training that give them relentless but slow and purposeful. (not a psychic power)

SnP already gives you Relentless.

 agnosto wrote:

This is kind of what I had in mind as well; it would actually make Purgation squads a viable choice in the heavy support slot. I wouldn't let the power give all of that to them though, what I had in mind was a blanket power that affected each weapon separately:
1. Storm Bolters get +1S (so the guys without special/heavy weapons aren't left out).
2. Psilencers get rending
3. Psycannons get +12" range (that or maybe -1AP)
4. Incinerators get 12" torrent

The unit gets some special training that give them relentless but slow and purposeful. (not a psychic power)

I'd seriously think about take a squad of them like that and your opponent always has the chance to DtW when you try your psychic power.... make it WC2 maybe?

Not sure about relentless, but I like the idea of a psychic power that boosts their weapons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 agnosto wrote:


The unit gets some special training that give them relentless but slow and purposeful. (not a psychic power)

SnP already gives you Relentless.

My bad.

Or to simplify it, the power just gives every weapon in the unit +12" range until the next turn for incinerators this means 12" torrent.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer...

So, i guess it's no big deal if you're not getting this upgrades? With this approach, maybe it's worth just using regular tac marines with pe:daemons? But, unfortunately, it's gona shift the existing fluff and require retcons. But cheaper strikes...come on, they can't get any cheaper for the stuff they have. If you want to make them cheaper, rule them out to loose deepstrike and stormbolters/power weapons and get this 2-3 pt discount. For a few more points over marines they're gona get ML1 which is allready a fair advantage.

 koooaei wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer...

So, i guess it's no big deal if you're not getting this upgrades? With this approach, maybe it's worth just using regular tac marines with pe:daemons? But, unfortunately, it's gona shift the existing fluff and require retcons. But cheaper strikes...come on, they can't get any cheaper for the stuff they have. If you want to make them cheaper, rule them out to loose deepstrike and stormbolters/power weapons and get this 2-3 pt discount. For a few more points over marines they're gona get ML1 which is allready a fair advantage.

That's the point. Neuter the power weapons back to a different sort of anti-Daemon CCW (the best suggestion to date has been normal CCW with no S/AP that forces rerolls of successful Inv saves) and make the Mastery level actually worth a Mastery level and call them 18ppm.

I've given up participating in the debate, but could anyone please post links to the battle reports of these supposed Grey Knight armies doing well in tournaments? I'm curious as I can't seem to find them and the GK doing well in general sits in stark contrast to my personal experience.

(You don't need to tell me I'm wrong. I'm just asking for the Battle Reports that show me I'm wrong.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer...

So, i guess it's no big deal if you're not getting this upgrades? With this approach, maybe it's worth just using regular tac marines with pe:daemons? But, unfortunately, it's gona shift the existing fluff and require retcons. But cheaper strikes...come on, they can't get any cheaper for the stuff they have. If you want to make them cheaper, rule them out to loose deepstrike and stormbolters/power weapons and get this 2-3 pt discount. For a few more points over marines they're gona get ML1 which is allready a fair advantage.

That's the point. Neuter the power weapons back to a different sort of anti-Daemon CCW (the best suggestion to date has been normal CCW with no S/AP that forces rerolls of successful Inv saves) and make the Mastery level actually worth a Mastery level and call them 18ppm.

Sure, let's go back to Grey Knights utterly invalidating Daemons... because why should Daemon players ever have any fun?!

Make GK's anti-Daemon with the likes of Prefered Enemy, Banishment, some minor buffs such as the old psyk-out grenades, etc... But things like forcing re-rolls of already mediocre saves, or outright ignoring the only real save an entire army gets is just too much.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dropping GKSS 2ppm saves you 10 points per 5 man unit or 20 in a 10 man unit. That only really nets you an additional upgrade, or another body in a different squad. It's not that much of a game changer...

So, i guess it's no big deal if you're not getting this upgrades? With this approach, maybe it's worth just using regular tac marines with pe:daemons? But, unfortunately, it's gona shift the existing fluff and require retcons. But cheaper strikes...come on, they can't get any cheaper for the stuff they have. If you want to make them cheaper, rule them out to loose deepstrike and stormbolters/power weapons and get this 2-3 pt discount. For a few more points over marines they're gona get ML1 which is allready a fair advantage.

That's the point. Neuter the power weapons back to a different sort of anti-Daemon CCW (the best suggestion to date has been normal CCW with no S/AP that forces rerolls of successful Inv saves) and make the Mastery level actually worth a Mastery level and call them 18ppm.

Sure, let's go back to Grey Knights utterly invalidating Daemons... because why should Daemon players ever have any fun?!

Make GK's anti-Daemon with the likes of Prefered Enemy, Banishment, some minor buffs such as the old psyk-out grenades, etc... But things like forcing re-rolls of already mediocre saves, or outright ignoring the only real save an entire army gets is just too much.

Or go back and give Daemons armour!

Even with reroll-successful-Inv I'd bet on two Bloodletters taking down one PAGK, honestly. And it's not like some armies haven't managed to live with getting basically no saves against anything on most of their army ('Nids, Guard, Orks...). It could require some corresponding adjustments to the Daemons but it's not a Codex-ending change.

I read a lot of the first page and have barely skimmed since leaving that wasteland.

I like a lot of the ideas here, but I just find it so hard to build consensus for this stuff even in my local community. So I don't often try to come up with special rules because every new player I meet will need to be convinced.

I do really wish we had psychic dreadnoughts. They're, in my opinion, one of the best options we have for land based anti-armor. Take a heavy weapon on one of them (multi melta? Plasma cannon?) and try to take down a tank before getting into assault.

The thing is, it's just not overly attractive compared to other things. I wish I could pay some points to take a Librarian dreadnought and maybe get some psychic shooting going too, or something neat like that. Vortex of doom, multi melta, and then assault? Yes please!

I'm holding my breath that they release something like that, or maybe a Librarian Dreadknight? in White Dwarf or as a formation. Currently I rely on melee and my storm raven to deal with armor and it just isn't fun.