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ForeverARookie wrote:
I've given up participating in the debate, but could anyone please post links to the battle reports of these supposed Grey Knight armies doing well in tournaments? I'm curious as I can't seem to find them and the GK doing well in general sits in stark contrast to my personal experience.

(You don't need to tell me I'm wrong. I'm just asking for the Battle Reports that show me I'm wrong.)

use search in the battle report section. There's plenty of bat-reps with new GK.

 koooaei wrote:
use search in the battle report section. There's plenty of bat-reps with new GK.

Most of the ones I've seen were allied, and I've seen just as many where the Grey Knights get steam-rolled as ones where they win.

ForeverARookie wrote:
Most of the ones I've seen were allied, and I've seen just as many where the Grey Knights get steam-rolled as ones where they win.

Sounds about as balanced as 40k gets right now.

Local GK player plays mostly pure GK. I say "mostly" because he takes a Knight in his list. So even the die hard GK players seem to be moving away from pure lists to be able to pose some kind of challenge on the table.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Local GK player plays mostly pure GK. I say "mostly" because he takes a Knight in his list. So even the die hard GK players seem to be moving away from pure lists to be able to pose some kind of challenge on the table.

Agreed.

Even though GK are a reasonably effective army, the synergy you can get from intelligently using allies is hard to ignore. Seeing mixed GK lists is much more likely unless the player is a true GK 'purist.'

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Even though GK are a reasonably effective army, the synergy you can get from intelligently using allies is hard to ignore.

Isn't that the same for most armies though?

 vipoid wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:
Even though GK are a reasonably effective army, the synergy you can get from intelligently using allies is hard to ignore.

Isn't that the same for most armies though?

Most armies don't need allies to be as effective though. GK definitely do.

 vipoid wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:
Even though GK are a reasonably effective army, the synergy you can get from intelligently using allies is hard to ignore.

Isn't that the same for most armies though?

Yes, but as ClockworkZion said, it's not usually as game-changing as it seems to be with the new GK.

It's probably more the fact that the previous Codex was very capable sans allies (and equally effective with) but the new Codex really seems to struggle without allied support. Doesn't stop anyone from having a good game, of course, but it's a noticeable change of pace.

DoW

There are only three issues I have had with the Grey Knights codex in the new revision.

To agree with several people on the idea that they have literally no anti air capability and playing in an area where there are people that field a huge number of fliers.
Just a simple addition of Flak missiles or any specific weapon getting a skyfire profile, set to deal with a flier.

That the dreadnought is the standard dread from every space marine codex. They literally made it a standard dread with psychic. What happened to the grey knights weapons options?

Heavy psycannon
Heavy Incinerator/incinerator
Gatling Psilencer

Rules that are already in place and just need slotted into the proper profile.

The removal of vast amounts of war gear. No option for servo skulls and so on...
With the inquisition codex all inquisition gear went with it. Why is an arm of the inquisition suddenly not able to take inquisition gear? Adding in servo skulls and similar gear solves mulitiple of the problems people are talking about. Want to reduce scatter? Place some servo skulls and so on...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Most armies don't need allies to be as effective though. GK definitely do.

Perhaps, but then, Allies in general irritate me no end.

Firstly because I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing just one army.

Second because it seems like an excuse for GW to put even less effort into game balance ("Who cares if army X struggles against a lot of things? They can always take allies, can't they?")

 vipoid wrote:
Firstly because I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing just one army.

Second because it seems like an excuse for GW to put even less effort into game balance ("Who cares if army X struggles against a lot of things? They can always take allies, can't they?")

You hit the nail on the head, señor. Disappointing, but true.

DoW

Sort of. Allies exist to lower the barrier to starting a second army (read: sell more toys) and to allow GW to alter the fundamental mechanics with things like Flyers on a shorter update schedule (read: sell more toys), there are semi-valid reasons to do it from a balance perspective. The problem is that they're all tied to the rolling update schedule.

That said the point that was made at the start of this thread is that GK aren't a functional standalone force and we're seeing what we can do to fix that. My approach in my own fandex is to stop operating under the assumption that an army of only GK is a valid standalone and treat them like a mini-'Dex, but some people are grumpy with me on the subject.

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Most armies don't need allies to be as effective though. GK definitely do.

Perhaps, but then, Allies in general irritate me no end.

Firstly because I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing just one army.

Second because it seems like an excuse for GW to put even less effort into game balance ("Who cares if army X struggles against a lot of things? They can always take allies, can't they?")

Oddly it's been the community not GW that seems to want to sell me on allies for my Sisters.

How many army concepts do gk have atm? For example, orks have green tide, more traditional footsloggas, speed freaks, walker wall, gunline and a few mixed concepts with lots of possible unit options and support. And every concept feels absolutely differently. That's not like, you take unit X instead of unit Y to counter enemie's unit Z but your tactical approach is basically the same. Nope.

But from what i've seen - i might be wrong, though - gk feel like a mono-build army based around an alpha-strike with dreadknights and pallies/terminators/purifiers with librarian and Draigo.

I think that it's not cause of the internal ballance but purely cause C: GK has this many units in the book. GK do the job good but the problem i see is that they're quite limited in avaliable tactical options. Maybe, that's the reason you mainly see gk as or with allies.

So, what do you think about it? It might be more productive to decide what other concepts you want to see and than play around with model rethinking and adding new stuff?

GK are a pretty monodimensional army because of the aforementioned lack of choice in weapon selection and units. The most important choice you have to make building a GK army is whether your expensive short-ranged multirole units are going to Deep Strike or use Rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to see specialized units within the GK but I don't know what to do with them within the framework of existing models; which is the primary reason I framed them as a mini-Codex/component of an Inquisition Codex that uses the combination of Stormtroopers, Inquisitorial Henchmen, and Grey Knights to achieve different builds.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd like to see specialized units within the GK but I don't know what to do with them within the framework of existing models

Purgation Squads: Dedicated ranged/anti-air support. Drop all of the close combat stuff (Force Sword, Grenades, etc) and give them better ranged options (Lascannon, Missile Launcher, something new, whatever). Replace Hammerhand with Perfect Timing.

Terminators: Give them a Dedicated Close Combat build. Exchange the Storm Bolter for a Storm Shield. It gives up its ranged attacks, but it stands a chance to actually survive long enough to strike back at Monstrous Creatures that have a ton of I 5+ attacks at AP2.

Ultimately I don't think GW wants to balance anything. If they did, they wouldn't be constantly updating the game, breaking as many units as they fix, as if it were still in being beta-tested, and not a worldwide game whose players spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours building their armies. The game's been out for nearly 30 years. If they wanted to balance it, they would have.

Edit: I put my army on Swap Shop.

ForeverARookie, that last part belongs on the Swap Shop, not here.

SGTPozy wrote:
ForeverARookie, that last part belongs on the Swap Shop, not here.

OK, I did it.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd like to see specialized units within the GK but I don't know what to do with them within the framework of existing models

Purgation Squads: Dedicated ranged/anti-air support. Drop all of the close combat stuff (Force Sword, Grenades, etc) and give them better ranged options (Lascannon, Missile Launcher, something new, whatever). Replace Hammerhand with Perfect Timing.

Terminators: Give them a Dedicated Close Combat build. Exchange the Storm Bolter for a Storm Shield. It gives up its ranged attacks, but it stands a chance to actually survive long enough to strike back at Monstrous Creatures that have a ton of I 5+ attacks at AP2.

Ultimately I don't think GW wants to balance anything. If they did, they wouldn't be constantly updating the game, breaking as many units as they fix, as if it were still in being beta-tested, and not a worldwide game whose players spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours building their armies. The game's been out for nearly 30 years. If they wanted to balance it, they would have.

Edit: I put my army on Swap Shop.

I think if you want near guaranteed Ignores Cover, then Tau is the Army for you. GK Power Armour Force Weapon Instant Death guys are the GK answer to monstrous creatures. Some will still die but you'll have enough bodies in the two combat squads to get off Force and kill the MC on its first failed save. There's no need to make the cheapest Termies in the game even better. StormRavens are pretty good anti-air as it is so no buff is needed there. If you are unwilling to adapt to a changing meta then it probably is best that you switch to another army as you seem to be in selling your army. Similarly, if the people you play with are not having fun, then there's no need to continue the gaming side of the hobby. Especially if you are turned off by the "+$20 for each of these three data slates" vibe GW is sending.

Another game system might be a better idea. Xwing is not my thing, but it's alleged to be much more balanced t this point that 40k is. I'm looking at DropZone for a change of pace myself. The smaller scale is easier on the budget and the vehicle nature means that you can even get into hand carving your own mini's if you are more hobbyist. That even skips the (reduced) price tag if you have more time than money.

Alright so I'm kicking this idea around what would you guys think about actually increasing the points for a PAGK.

Something similar to Honor Guard.

as in an additional 4 ppm however a 2+ armor save.

Would you feel this is starting to get competitive to terminators? Or is it over the top for the most part.

Quickjager wrote:
Alright so I'm kicking this idea around what would you guys think about actually increasing the points for a PAGK.

Something similar to Honor Guard.

as in an additional 4 ppm however a 2+ armor save.

Would you feel this is starting to get competitive to terminators? Or is it over the top for the most part.

They'd be under costed then

 total0 wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
Alright so I'm kicking this idea around what would you guys think about actually increasing the points for a PAGK.

Something similar to Honor Guard.

as in an additional 4 ppm however a 2+ armor save.

Would you feel this is starting to get competitive to terminators? Or is it over the top for the most part.

They'd be under costed then

Mmmm yes thats what I'm wondering, Honor Guard is 25 ppm with a 2+ armor save. However it is widely accepted they are not that good.

Quickjager wrote:

 total0 wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
Alright so I'm kicking this idea around what would you guys think about actually increasing the points for a PAGK.

Something similar to Honor Guard.

as in an additional 4 ppm however a 2+ armor save.

Would you feel this is starting to get competitive to terminators? Or is it over the top for the most part.

They'd be under costed then

Mmmm yes thats what I'm wondering, Honor Guard is 25 ppm with a 2+ armor save. However it is widely accepted they are not that good.

They're not a Troops choice, they require an HQ tax (most prefer captain to CM), are not psykers, nor combat squadable for double psyker dice, can't deep strike (without buying a pod) and they don't come with free force weapons. Change any of those and you will see more of them. Make them troops and I'd stop fielding Tacticals in anything but grey tide fun lists (and my troops are generally giving up 8 kill points on a bad day).

People seem to be quite hung up on the psyker aspect of the game. The psyker game is a all-or-nothing part of the game where you either own it or not.

If I wanted to own the game I would just run mostly Purifiers for 4 warp charge cheap. I think people quote the psyker aspect far too much.

Also most GK players WISH we COULD buy drop pods for our units, as the chance is mishap is decent for a force where everything can DS in.

Honor Guard also have 2 attacks, which I am NOT proposing we give PAGK as that would be a bit silly on a TAC troop choice.

The difference between Honor Guard and Terminators for C:SM is 15 points before wargear, both come with free power weapons which strike at AP3 at worst

Looking at this from a points point of view. The difference between Honor Guard and Termies boils down to

15 points for-
+ 5+ Inv save
+ Relentless
+ Ability to take heavy weapons
+ Ability to take a variety of CC gear
- Loss of grenades

I think we are focusing too much on what would happen if we applied these changes to SM as a whole. The wargear choices that are available to among GK compared to SM is quite large and is always 24 inch range.

This is probably exacerbated by the ease of access to AP2 and 3.

Quickjager wrote:

Looking at this from a points point of view. The difference between Honor Guard and Termies boils down to

15 points for-
+ 5+ Inv save
+ Relentless
+ Ability to take heavy weapons
+ Ability to take a variety of CC gear
- Loss of grenades

I think we are focusing too much on what would happen if we applied these changes to SM as a whole. The wargear choices that are available to among GK compared to SM is quite large and is always 24 inch range.

This is probably exacerbated by the ease of access to AP2 and 3.

Honor Guard are NOT a Troops choice. They can't take a landraider nor can they deep strike for free. They require a Chapter Master to unlock. They are restricted to one per chapter master (or 3 for Calgar who is almost 300 points himself) and they do not get access to FNP from Draigo/Apoth shennanigans.

If Honor guard could buy a DT landraider or were troops, you'd see them everywhere. Their point cost is set as a special choice, not elite or troops so they cannot be directly compared without accounting for that.

The only changes I'd make to Grey Knights as-is:

Bring back Psybolts as a psychic power. "While under the effects of Hammerhand, Grey Knight Bolt and Auto weapons have +1 STR"

Some kind of Skyfire. "At the beginning of the game and each of your shooting phases, Purgation Squads may choose Night Vision, Skyfire or Interceptor. They gain that USR until the beginning of your next shooting phase.

Some kind of Melta. "Special Weapons: Pyrebeam, 25 points. S8 AP1 8" Assault 1, Armorbane, Psychic Feed. Psychic Feed - If the unit only fires weapons with the Psychic Feed special rule, treat them as Twin-linked. Instead, if the unit consists of six or more Grey Knight models all Psychic Feed weapons fire one additional shot."

raverrn wrote:
Some kind of Melta. "Special Weapons: Pyrebeam, 25 points. S8 AP1 8" Assault 1, Armorbane, Psychic Feed. Psychic Feed - If the unit only fires weapons with the Psychic Feed special rule, treat them as Twin-linked. Instead, if the unit consists of six or more Grey Knight models all Psychic Feed weapons fire one additional shot."

25pts for a 16" range meltagun that can only actually fire 8" seems a bit overpriced to me, even with the twin-linked/two-shot strange rule I'd call them 20pts.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Some kind of Melta. "Special Weapons: Pyrebeam, 25 points. S8 AP1 8" Assault 1, Armorbane, Psychic Feed. Psychic Feed - If the unit only fires weapons with the Psychic Feed special rule, treat them as Twin-linked. Instead, if the unit consists of six or more Grey Knight models all Psychic Feed weapons fire one additional shot."

25pts for a 16" range meltagun that can only actually fire 8" seems a bit overpriced to me, even with the twin-linked/two-shot strange rule I'd call them 20pts.

That's probably pretty fair, it's 20 points for a master-crafted meltagun, add a few points for the ability to fire twice sometimes, but take some off because it replaces a force weapon.

If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

SGTPozy wrote:
If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

Sure since we're talking homebrew rules here anyway. Make Kroot and Vespid actually useful.