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As the title says- if Horus had died of his wounds instead of being corrupted when he was healed, most of us seem to think the Chaos gods would have done the same to some other Primarch.

Minus Horus, which Primarch was most likely to end up leading the ______ heresy?

Also- if your favorite candidate would have changed the make-up of the Heresy, go ahead and say what you think the new list of loyalist and traitor legions would be.

My vote would be Magnus, but that said, without Horus at the helm, I doubt the Heresey would not be nearly as powerful. It would be a tragedy for the Imperium, but not one that would put it into gradual ruin.

The most "worthy" would be Lorgar (Wordbearers), he put in such an awful lot of work.

Then it would be a toss-up between Alpharius Omegon (Alpha Legion) or Perturabo (Iron Warriors) for the two smartest of the lot. I could not pick Magnus (Thousand Sons) since followers of Korn would have some issues with him.

Possibly Alpharius would be the top pick since he is a long game / big picture tactician while Perturabo is a rather ruthlessly practical kinda guy (no flare for the dramatic that others would appreciate).

Angorn or fulgrim

 Talizvar wrote:
The most "worthy" would be Lorgar (Wordbearers), he put in such an awful lot of work.

Then it would be a toss-up between Alpharius Omegon (Alpha Legion) or Perturabo (Iron Warriors) for the two smartest of the lot. I could not pick Magnus (Thousand Sons) since followers of Korn would have some issues with him.

Possibly Alpharius would be the top pick since he is a long game / big picture tactician while Perturabo is a rather ruthlessly practical kinda guy (no flare for the dramatic that others would appreciate).

Lorgar wouldn't, he lacks the ability to lead like Horus did, and carries little weight with the other Priamrchs. Chaos would probably try to corrupt the Lion to their side, as Johnson is the only loyalist Primarch they could probably corrupt by focusing their time on him who could be as much of a leader as Horus was.

Magnus wouldn't have turned without Horus intervention. So he is out imo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lion is uncorrupted. And so he would have remained. There are no DA traitors. Why would you think that?... Here come sit and have some tea....

 raiden wrote:
Magnus wouldn't have turned without Horus intervention. So he is out imo

As Magnus is sticking loyal I think Russ is the one who ends up leading the HH. 10,000 years and they SW still havent learned the Fenris Power they draw on is actually Chaotic sorcery leading them astray.

Isn't Russ in the eye of terror now, he might be the 7th Daemon Primarch

Not sure if he'd be their chosen but Fulgrim probably would have still gone all crazy pimp father. He wouldn't have caused a rebellion on the scale of the HH due to lack of support from other Primarchs but he might have set up a small territory somewhere and become a human / SM version of the DE.

the Lion.

He already had a lot of chaos in him. Chaos already had Lorgar but he's no leader.

I figure Sanguinius was next in line as Warmaster, and with his gene flaw Chaos had an exploitable weakness to take hold in.

 daddyorchips wrote:
Chaos already had Lorgar but he's no leader.

He might have started the only rebellion that centered around building enormous cathedrals instead of warfare

They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

 Talizvar wrote:
The most "worthy" would be Lorgar (Wordbearers), he put in such an awful lot of work.

Then it would be a toss-up between Alpharius Omegon (Alpha Legion) or Perturabo (Iron Warriors) for the two smartest of the lot. I could not pick Magnus (Thousand Sons) since followers of Korn would have some issues with him.
.

There weren't really any followers of Korn back at the time of the Heresy, at least knowledgeably.

There were, however, a few followers of Limp Biskit and a small cult of Static-X.

Both organizations, however, were brutally purged by the newly-formed Inquisition in the years after the Heresy.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

Not likely.

Guilliman was more or less immune to the lure of the Ruinous Powers, as they had nothing he wanted.

You see, most of the primarchs that fell all embodied one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins, or the Eight Evil Thoughts which the 7DS were later derived from. Horus (hubris, avarice), Fulgrim (lust, pride), Lorgar (envy), Angron (wrath), Curze (wrath) Perturabo (envy), Alpharius (hubris), Magnus (hubris)...

Guilliman, on the other hand, is the 40K embodiement of the Roman Virtues of Pietas, Prudentia, Virtus, etc. Lorgar fell because he needed validation. Guilliman saw fulfillment of his duty as all the validation he needed. Horus was worried he'd have no place after the Great Crusade. Guilliman was already preparing for it. Fulgrim became obsessed with perfection. Guilliman simply worked hard at it.

There was never any chance of Guilliman being corrupted, no more than there was of Russ being corrupted. These were primarchs for whom duty and loyalty were their own reward, and there was little room for self-doubt. Chaos preyed on the primarchs who weak of spirit, or weak of character (or both, in the case of Lorgar, which is why he was first). A few of the loyal primarchs could have theoretically been turned. Guilliman was not one of them.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

Not likely.

Guilliman was more or less immune to the lure of the Ruinous Powers, as they had nothing he wanted.

You see, most of the primarchs that fell all embodied one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins, or the Eight Evil Thoughts which the 7DS were later derived from. Horus (hubris, avarice), Fulgrim (lust, pride), Lorgar (envy), Angron (wrath), Curze (wrath) Perturabo (envy), Alpharius (hubris), Magnus (hubris)...

Guilliman, on the other hand, is the 40K embodiement of the Roman Virtues of Pietas, Prudentia, Virtus, etc. Lorgar fell because he needed validation. Guilliman saw fulfillment of his duty as all the validation he needed. Horus was worried he'd have no place after the Great Crusade. Guilliman was already preparing for it. Fulgrim became obsessed with perfection. Guilliman simply worked hard at it.

There was never any chance of Guilliman being corrupted, no more than there was of Russ being corrupted. These were primarchs for whom duty and loyalty were their own reward, and there was little room for self-doubt. Chaos preyed on the primarchs who weak of spirit, or weak of character (or both, in the case of Lorgar, which is why he was first). A few of the loyal primarchs could have theoretically been turned. Guilliman was not one of them.

Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

Orblivion wrote:
Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

I'd like a source and some examples for this. Because they don't exist, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

Not likely.

Guilliman was more or less immune to the lure of the Ruinous Powers, as they had nothing he wanted.

You see, most of the primarchs that fell all embodied one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins, or the Eight Evil Thoughts which the 7DS were later derived from. Horus (hubris, avarice), Fulgrim (lust, pride), Lorgar (envy), Angron (wrath), Curze (wrath) Perturabo (envy), Alpharius (hubris), Magnus (hubris)...

Guilliman, on the other hand, is the 40K embodiement of the Roman Virtues of Pietas, Prudentia, Virtus, etc. Lorgar fell because he needed validation. Guilliman saw fulfillment of his duty as all the validation he needed. Horus was worried he'd have no place after the Great Crusade. Guilliman was already preparing for it. Fulgrim became obsessed with perfection. Guilliman simply worked hard at it.

There was never any chance of Guilliman being corrupted, no more than there was of Russ being corrupted. These were primarchs for whom duty and loyalty were their own reward, and there was little room for self-doubt. Chaos preyed on the primarchs who weak of spirit, or weak of character (or both, in the case of Lorgar, which is why he was first). A few of the loyal primarchs could have theoretically been turned. Guilliman was not one of them.

He was portrayed as more morally ambiguous by Gav Thorpe and Dan Abnett, especially in Unremembered Empire. They were pushing the envelope, because GW believes that most of the audience loves a clear cut villian and a clear cut hero, with the heroes defeating the villains in the end.

Also they may have irked UM fanboys and undermined 40K's posterboys. Aaron Dembski-Bowden has tried to inject some sympathy for the Traitor Primarchs, but as he is constrained they all become totally evil at the end.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

I'd like a source and some examples for this. Because they don't exist, lol.

Well it has been remarked a few times in the early HH novels that Guilliman was jealous of Horus for being named Warmaster. When Horus hears that Davin has fallen, he comments that Guilliman will be thrilled to hear that a world Horus conquered has fallen. Not to mention the fact that he was willing to start a second civil war in order to enforce his own ideas.

All of the primarchs had their flaws that could be manipulated, it wasn't just a matter of whether or not the Chaos gods had something to offer.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

I'd like a source and some examples for this. Because they don't exist, lol.

Well it has been remarked a few times in the early HH novels that Guilliman was jealous of Horus for being named Warmaster. When Horus hears that Davin has fallen, he comments that Guilliman will be thrilled to hear that a world Horus conquered has fallen.

Nowhere has it been mentioned that Guilliman was jealous. Other characters believed Guilliman would be jealous, or be thrilled to hear of Horus's failure. However, that was those characters reflecting their own personal weaknesses onto Guilliman.

Guilliman makes no mention of any of those things, nor are there any objective reports of those things actually occuring. You're confusing what the traitors believed, as part of their own confirmation bias, and what was actually real.

For example, Lorgar believed that Guilliman hated him, and held him in contempt. But even he has the realization in Betrayer that that was all in his head.



Guilliman is the guy who wielded supreme executive power* in the years following the Heresy as a High Lord of Terra and the Supreme Commander of all Imperial Forces, and voluntarily stepped down to go back to leading his chapter. Guilliman disbanded his own legion, which accounted for over half of all the Space Marines. Nobody gave up more with the creation of the Codex Astartes than Guilliman, yet Dorn threw a tantrum over having to split up his paltry, depleted Fists.




*and he didn't even have to take part in a farcical aquatic ceremony. I mean, if he's gone around declaring himself Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him, they'd lock him up.

None of the other Traitors would have been suitable to start the Heresy. Most of the traitor primarchs were too disliked by their brothers and would not have been followed in rebellion. Curze, Alpharius and Angron had zero friends. Mortarion and Perturabo only turned specifically because Horus convinced them to. Fulgrim was too haughty and arrogant and hated by at least two or three of the other traitors. Magnus would never had started the Heresy, he only turned by circumstance and almost everyone looked down on Lorgar. Even those those that were friendly with him, (like Magnus) thought he was misguided and foolish in his beliefs.

The only other Primarch that commanded anywhere near the level of respect to turn half of his brothers was Sanguinius. So without Horus, it pretty much had to be him in my opinion.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

I'd like a source and some examples for this. Because they don't exist, lol.

Well it has been remarked a few times in the early HH novels that Guilliman was jealous of Horus for being named Warmaster. When Horus hears that Davin has fallen, he comments that Guilliman will be thrilled to hear that a world Horus conquered has fallen.

Nowhere has it been mentioned that Guilliman was jealous. Other characters believed Guilliman would be jealous, or be thrilled to hear of Horus's failure. However, that was those characters reflecting their own personal weaknesses onto Guilliman.

Guilliman makes no mention of any of those things, nor are there any objective reports of those things actually occuring. You're confusing what the traitors believed, as part of their own confirmation bias, and what was actually real.

For example, Lorgar believed that Guilliman hated him, and held him in contempt. But even he has the realization in Betrayer that that was all in his head.



Guilliman is the guy who wielded supreme executive power* in the years following the Heresy as a High Lord of Terra and the Supreme Commander of all Imperial Forces, and voluntarily stepped down to go back to leading his chapter. Guilliman disbanded his own legion, which accounted for over half of all the Space Marines. Nobody gave up more with the creation of the Codex Astartes than Guilliman, yet Dorn threw a tantrum over having to split up his paltry, depleted Fists.




*and he didn't even have to take part in a farcical aquatic ceremony. I mean, if he's gone around declaring himself Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him, they'd lock him up.

Horus wasn't a traitor when he was talking about how Guilliman was jealous of him, he hadn't been twisted yet. You're attributing far too much benevolence to Guilliman if you ask me, but whatever. Personally, I don't think any of the primarchs were immune to chaos. Some did resist, but IMO that doesn't mean they would always be able to resist.

Now that Mat Ward has left GW, you have a chance, Veteran Sergeant!

Show everyone the glory of the Ultramarines! For Courage and Honor! For Macragge!

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Now that Mat Ward has left GW, you have a chance, Veteran Sergeant!

Show everyone the glory of the Ultramarines! For Courage and Honor! For Macragge!

I see your username is appropriate.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Now that Mat Ward has left GW, you have a chance, Veteran Sergeant!

Show everyone the glory of the Ultramarines! For Courage and Honor! For Macragge!

I see your username is appropriate.

Why not? Haha.

Forgive me but I can't help but be irreverent. Just a jest, don't take it to heart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't have a favored Legion or Primarch, I see all of them as plot elements, to be used to explore different aspects of human nature and to drive forward a story of civil war.

Now you can have characters which are largely flat, wholly good or evil, but it doesn't add that much depth, with rounded characters you get more intricacy out of a story.

Sanguinius because they need someone who is universally liked (like Horus, with a few exceptions) so that they could pull more primarchs to their side.

I chose Dorn, but only really because I have a soft spot for that Dornian Heresy alt universe that B&C was working on a few years back.

If Horus died, the plan doesn't change, it wouldn't have mattered. Chaos can resurrect the dead. Even dying once wouldn't have changed his formidability, or the vast amount of resources he could pull.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
Guilliman was very proud, he had the same weakness as Horus. My vote goes to the Lion regardless.

I'd like a source and some examples for this. Because they don't exist, lol.

Well it has been remarked a few times in the early HH novels that Guilliman was jealous of Horus for being named Warmaster. When Horus hears that Davin has fallen, he comments that Guilliman will be thrilled to hear that a world Horus conquered has fallen.

Nowhere has it been mentioned that Guilliman was jealous. Other characters believed Guilliman would be jealous, or be thrilled to hear of Horus's failure. However, that was those characters reflecting their own personal weaknesses onto Guilliman.

Guilliman makes no mention of any of those things, nor are there any objective reports of those things actually occuring. You're confusing what the traitors believed, as part of their own confirmation bias, and what was actually real.

For example, Lorgar believed that Guilliman hated him, and held him in contempt. But even he has the realization in Betrayer that that was all in his head.



Guilliman is the guy who wielded supreme executive power* in the years following the Heresy as a High Lord of Terra and the Supreme Commander of all Imperial Forces, and voluntarily stepped down to go back to leading his chapter. Guilliman disbanded his own legion, which accounted for over half of all the Space Marines. Nobody gave up more with the creation of the Codex Astartes than Guilliman, yet Dorn threw a tantrum over having to split up his paltry, depleted Fists.




*and he didn't even have to take part in a farcical aquatic ceremony. I mean, if he's gone around declaring himself Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him, they'd lock him up.

Horus wasn't a traitor when he was talking about how Guilliman was jealous of him, he hadn't been twisted yet. You're attributing far too much benevolence to Guilliman if you ask me, but whatever. Personally, I don't think any of the primarchs were immune to chaos. Some did resist, but IMO that doesn't mean they would always be able to resist.

Just because Horus had not fell to Chaos doesn't mean Horus was always going to read his brothers 100% correctly. giuven the evidance thus far we can conclude that many BELVIED Gulliman was jelous of Horus, but he came to terms with it. Horus had a alrge degree of personal ambition and likely tended to view people through the lens of that (everyone tends to view others through themselves) but given what we've seen of him I suspect Gulliman's ambition tended more towards a form of "collective amibition" of wanting to do whats best for the empire as a whole.

moving back onto topic and away from the ultramarines bashing however, I'd be betting on Sanguinis. he was popular, charismatic, and had a VERY corruptable aspect to him. the only question is, could someone who'd almost certinly become a thrall to the blood god, lead a crusade of all 4 chaos gods, or would the chaos gods start in fighting

 blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Sanguinius because they need someone who is universally liked (like Horus, with a few exceptions) so that they could pull more primarchs to their side.

This is interesting, and I am glad you wrote something down, as I was wondering why quite a large proportion of voters polled chose Sanguinius. Personally, having read "Fear to Tread" I don't think it likely, but there are clear links to Khorne (bloodlust, rage) in the Blood Angels chapter, so I guess there are some grounds for it.

I agree with the general consensus that the Primarch had to have some "darkness" in him already, and there are clear choices when you consider that. Also, the Lion makes sense (I didn't vote for him, but might now, having thought more about it) as a good strategist and leader that people might follow. I voted Mortarion, who by that logic is very unlikely, as he is not a leader amongst the Primarchs.

But Horus didn't have "darkness" in him--he was the favored son, the most perfect version of the Emperor out of all the sons, right? So in that case...it could have been any of them, right? But to lead a rebellion? I actually think that the precondition of a fairly large amount of resentment and bitterness (Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze) or just insanity (Angron) amongst the Primarchs was more significant. I mean, a full half of them joined the rebellion.