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 Exergy wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Thanks for the advice guys!

Just to clarify, I am willing to buy a few more units, I just don't want to end up owning every unit in the codex...

And yeah, orIginally (with the old dex) I was going to go transport heavy for DE, with three Venoms, a Raider and a Ravager at 1000pts. It sounds like this is still the way to go?

And I heard wyches aren't great anymore, are they still worth taking? And are Reavers still as awesome as they were? It was my original plan to get another box of them.

The venoms certainly still have use. You can probably find a place for the single raider. The ravager will do alright until you can replace it.

No wyches are not worth taking.

Reavers changed, from one kind of awesome to another thing that may well also be awesome.

I don't actually have those venoms or the ravager, so having to replace them is no problem

Good to hear Reavers are still good though and, as for wyches, I can always convert them into sisters of slaughter for WHFB Dark Elves, so again, no problems. We usually play Battleforged in my group though, so I'd need another Troops choice. I could get another unit of Kabalites or, if it's better and, indeed, legal, simply split them up into two units of five?

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Dont Archons come with Plasma Grenades anyway? so all they really lost from the launcher was defensive grenades?

This is correct. Succubus' do too, which is why I think a Succubus with some Howling Banshees with an exarch w/ executioner could be a viable strat.

 Auswin wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Dont Archons come with Plasma Grenades anyway? so all they really lost from the launcher was defensive grenades?

This is correct. Succubus' do too, which is why I think a Succubus with some Howling Banshees with an exarch w/ executioner could be a viable strat.

Maybe a bit more legit, but you really could have done the same thing with a combat Autarch. I think the main problem is that S3 powerswords are the suck. Banshees are a unit that is meant to slay Power Armour, yet they only wound it on a 5+? So damn fail.

My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.

Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.

At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.

-Matt

Actually Hellions get 10 shots for the same points cost as 2x SplinterCannons Venoms, which are half the range of the Venom

That said, you probably could build a mass infantry list, but I don't see why you would, you would lose a lot of mobility

EDIT: Ninja'd

My bad, I thought they had carbines. Looks like only scourge get carbines now.
So you pay 80 points for 15 shots. Still not bad. 5.33 points per shot, making the firepower slightly cheaper than a venom.

The reason to go massed infantry is to neuter the effect of all tank killing firepower. It's a T3/T4 army. Anything designed to kill AV11 is wasteful.

 sfshilo wrote:
My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.

Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.

Pretty much this. It's why I'm such a huge advocate of running the formation. If you can get Warlord Trait No.2 then night-fighting is basically a lock, and sticking your skimmers in cover is giving them a jink save without the jink. Also it almost guarantees your WWPs will come in turn 2, then you can hit something with the animus vitae to jump-start the PFP.

I watched a game between DE and CSM today where 10 wyches held up Abaddon and 5 CSM termies on turns 5 and 6 because fearless and the invuln kept him stuck mid-board.

 sfshilo wrote:
My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.

Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.

Venom can't get the night shield (caps at 4+ jink), Raider can't get the flicker field (no 5++).
With the new costs, I'm liking the Raiders a lot more than the Venom. 3 Hullpoints at 3+ jink is going to hold up a whole lot better.
The troops seem underwhelming to me, so I'm thinking about using my 3 Venoms with 5 unupgraded warriors. It's a really cheap way to dump 66 poison shots on the table (330 points).

Man the guy I played today got EVERY rule wrong.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The troops seem underwhelming to me, so I'm thinking about using my 3 Venoms with 5 unupgraded warriors. It's a really cheap way to dump 66 poison shots on the table (330 points).

I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.

For those 330 pts you're looking at two raiders packed with Warriors and racks.

66 poison shots hitting on 3's = 22 wounds -- 8 unsaved wounds to MEQ

20 poison shots (at 24") hitting on 3's re-rolling = 9 wounds -- 3 unsaved wounds to MEQ
40 poison shots (rapid fire) hitting on 3's re-rolling = 18 wounds -- 7 unsaved to MEQ

Factor in the disintegrator cannons and you're looking at 4 unsaved at max, 8 unsaved at rapid fire. I think the extra survivability in the raider and more bodies is worth it.

Also, it should be noted that jinking a Venom destroys your kill potential to 2 wounds, compared to 2.7 at max and 4.7 at rapid fire in raiders with racks.

 Auswin wrote:

I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.

Snip math.
Good point. For the same cost, you get the same 6 hullpoints, but with a 3+ jink, and no loss of poison effectiveness while jinking.
The question then becomes, what do you use a venom for?
Point for point, the Raider is more effective at bringing poison hits, and more durable as a transport.
With the stock venom being the same cost, it's hard to justify it for even a small squad of blasterborne.
The only advantage seems to be the smaller footprint, if you're deep striking or hiding.
Time to convert them to vypers?

Maybe I'll use the smaller venoms for Incubi delivery, where being able to hide is more important.

I use Venoms for Incubi delivery and Blasterborn -- but also note that Scourges aren't bulky. Sticking them in a venom gives more mobility than jumping, a fire platform and an extra thin piece of armor. Heat Lances can be used out of DS, haywire for further away

They're also good for DSing without a WWP. Still a risk, but you can't reasonably do that with a raider because of the footprint.

Venoms shoot at 36.... huge advantage over raider squads. Also, scourge cant embark.

 Auswin wrote:
I use Venoms for Incubi delivery and Blasterborn -- but also note that Scourges aren't bulky. Sticking them in a venom gives more mobility than jumping...

Page 80 of the basic rule book under transport: Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jetpack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
Page 65 of the basic rule book: Speical rules: Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.
Page 91 of the Dark Eldar codex: Unit Type, Jump Infantry.
Page 86 and 87 (Dark Eldar) lists the Raider and Venom, neither specifically states that they can carry Jump Infantry.
No, they cannot ride in Raiders or Venoms.



On the other hand... Jump Infantry can embark in a building (page 110).

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Venoms shoot at 36.... huge advantage over raider squads. Also, scourge cant embark.

This. Also you want to drop MSU squads on objectives out of sight, venoms allow you to do this while giving you a very high output offensive tool. Raider squads are fantastic but usually are an all your eggs in one basket trick.

I advocate for a mix of both. 2 raider boats with racks and 2-4 venoms depending on the size of the game. I will note that I will no longer arm my basic warriors with blasters. I just isn't worth the cost for the odd pot shot.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I will note that I will no longer arm my basic warriors with blasters. I just isn't worth the cost for the odd pot shot.

Especially given the cheap cost of Shredders. They're a highly undervalued weapon. Maybe not a lock against MEQ, but it's a horde killer and more often than not you're doing 3-5 wounds with it.

well good things I told my gf to keep her de force small and use warriors in raiders. I think wyches may have a use, gf used them as a clean up unit, after the raiders and warriors had dropped transports and weaken units with poison, the wyches would come and just decimate them. (haven't gotten the codex yet). what is the codex formation? was that stated yet?
beside the dropping Vect, no more AP2 for Archons, and no haywire for wyches(but do think they had a boost to dodge to work in the assault phase not just CC) I kind of like some of the things I am hearing, at least its not totally invalidating her force all together (like I said she usually skirted around the board taking shots and never really engaging unless it was needed.)
I sure don't want to play more money into an army that I wanted to keep small and keep her interested in playing without her losing all the time. AND, their seems to also be a use for the mandrakes (her first models she bought by herself), those models are pretty sweet. Another question what do you guys think would be the best load out for her archons besides WWP?

 Auswin wrote:
You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.

Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.

In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.

Exactly my thought.
A Kabal is the most versatile DE strike force.
Covens are a bit more specialize since they bring less long range weapons to bear.
Wych Cult is more cc oriented which is bad news in a shooty edition.

Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?

 lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.

Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.

A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.

HoW is against the side you ram, not necessarily back armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Auswin wrote:

The Voidraven is very, very good

Used the same strategy each game. Fly in, supersonic off the board dropping the bomb, come back in the next turn and shoot. It earned back its points every game.

Does it have a special rule that allows him to leave the board in the same turn it arrives ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, if I read correctly, Reavers dish out a crazy number of S6 Rending attacks.

Would a Reaverstar be possible ?
Maxxed reaver unit, two jetseers, archons with windriders MSU running behind for buffs, moving to LOS in the assault phase shenanigans ?

mercury14 wrote:
Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?

Well, in former edition I've thrown my Archon vs anything.
Never unsupported (Wyches) and with an agonizer.
Now the world has changed.

Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.

Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:

4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?

Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?

I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.

I could see them as a mobile shardcarbine volley unit.

Maybe a unit with shardcarbines and four cannons, for crowd control

 sfshilo wrote:
My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.

Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.

but none of DE skimmers have a 5++ and 3+ jink

they get one or the other


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Auswin wrote:

I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.

Snip math.
Good point. For the same cost, you get the same 6 hullpoints, but with a 3+ jink, and no loss of poison effectiveness while jinking.
The question then becomes, what do you use a venom for?
Point for point, the Raider is more effective at bringing poison hits, and more durable as a transport.
With the stock venom being the same cost, it's hard to justify it for even a small squad of blasterborne.
The only advantage seems to be the smaller footprint, if you're deep striking or hiding.

A raider with 3+ jink and splinter racks costs 85, 20 points more than a venom with 2 cannons.

So do scourges seem to be one of the standout units of the new codex?

And how do wracks fare? As they've got a new kit, I'm kinda presuming they'll be pretty good...

 The Shadow wrote:
So do scourges seem to be one of the standout units of the new codex?

And how do wracks fare? As they've got a new kit, I'm kinda presuming they'll be pretty good...

Scourges are finally pretty darn good with their point drop and ability to take 4 heavy/special weapons. Basically devistators, that can fly and deep strike. on the other side T3 4+ save.


Wracks are virtually identical to how they were, although they got a new gun in the kit. PFP is different, the codex chart doesnt start giving them anything until Turn 4 and 5. The coven chart gives them a lot of stuff awesome starting on turn 2. Of course they cannot benefit from EW or IWND, so the later stuff is wasted on them.

Weaponwise, the liquifier got worse, the hexrifles a little better.
The new wrack is pretty awesome, nice range and will do some damage to single wounded good save models. Kind of a waste against guardsmen and doesnt work on multiwounded models.

mercury14 wrote:
Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?

The husk blade was awesome for killing riptides, dreadknights, tyranofex, mega nobs, oblits... pick most books and their was a vital unit that it hard countered. Heck it could even chop down commonly taken characters like necron overlords/destroyer lords and mephiston. The loss of AP2 is defintely a big deal as now he is only good killing MEQ which the book doesn't need help with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 turgon868 wrote:
Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.

Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:

4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?

Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?

I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.

For alternate AT I'd take reavers. They are the same cost, similar durability but more importantly they have eldar jetbikes which lets them jump to within 9" with heatlances then jump back 2d6 and with skilled rider they can hop into terrain without danger. So if I want anything other then shardcarbines of haywire blasters I will turn to reavers.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 turgon868 wrote:
Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.

Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:

4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?

Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?

I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.

For alternate AT I'd take reavers. They are the same cost, similar durability but more importantly they have eldar jetbikes which lets them jump to within 9" with heatlances then jump back 2d6 and with skilled rider they can hop into terrain without danger. So if I want anything other then shardcarbines of haywire blasters I will turn to reavers.

Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?

I am not sure I'd run reavers with any special weapons since I'd just want them to jink every turn. I am interested to see how effective the caltrops end up being though.

 turgon868 wrote:
Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?

Nope, it also gives move through cover.

morgoth wrote:

 turgon868 wrote:
Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?

Nope, it also gives move through cover.

Incorrect. You gain +1 jink and autopass difficult tests.
It's pretty awesome really.

Yeah that is good. Looking forward to fielding my reavers.