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 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.

I'm a bit nervous about trying it against some dreadknights with the gatling force weapon. There'd be no feel no pain rolls, so just relying on the toughness and 3+ armor save to keep them alive. Having them all in one unit is what makes me especially nervous about it as I've lost numerous daemon princes to the same weapon but at least there the damage wasn't able to roll over to other models.

I don't usually see Dreadknights with the gat-silencer, but they do all show up with force weapons. Hitting on 4+ and instant killing on 2+ is a problem. Dreadknight has the speed to get the charge off, and does a ton of damage for his cost. A single dread knight isn't likely to finish off the whole unit, but two of them is a big threat.
IMO, you have to have some Ichor Injectors just for threats like these. Suddenly you're wounding on 2+ instead of threes and threatening with instant death of your own.

To be fair though, If I was tailoring for Grey Knights, I'd take a boat load of Crucibles and webways. S6 auto hit, on multiple units, and no save of any kind. Sounds good to me.

Yeah, if a dreadknight is standoffish, even with a ton of shots, needing to hit 2/3, wound 1/6, and then fail a save 1/3. One dead talos per 27 shots. The gattling psilencers have 12 shots?, so every other turn you lose a talos. The Talos can nearly down a dreadknight every other turn as well with shooting. Neither one of those is that effective.

I still think a great combo army is going to be Iyanden and The Coven Formation.

The entire army could actually be fearless. Plus with 2 to 3 Spirit Seers w/ Psychic Scream , Invisibility, Shrouding all things that greatly benefit Grotesques, Talos etc..

Then you have the fact that you have Wraith Guard with D Scythes and you have a ton of HQ to take.

Unfortunately the Coven cannot as far as I can see cannot be taken as a Ally codex.

While you cant take the allied detachment with the cover you can certainly take them as allies in their won coven detachment.

People get the Allies detachment mixed up with the allies rules all the time.

Allies detachment can only be taken when you take a combined arms detachment and then gets the OS rule and the smaller force org chart.

Allies (the rules) tell us how the detachments respond to each other when deployed in an army.

You can take as many detachments as you like

Formations are a type of detachment as well

I made this rules thread because I think RAW it actually works this way that multiple formations from the Coven book actually have their Freakish Spectacle stack.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622354.page#7339810

Also, here's why I think Iyanden is the best ally with Coven.

First because of the Above, You honestly just need the Dark Artisan and a Grotesque Squad then you can drop in and Psychic Shriek everything around you at -2 Leadership.

More if you have Terrify.

The thing is for 355 to 375 points you can get a Spirit Seer and a Haemy in a squad of 3-5 Grotesques that can deep strike or just take them stock save the points by a Raider, blast on the board / deep strike etc..

This is incredibly powerful.

First off.

It's turn 3 for the Grotesques. If you are on the bottom of the Turn when your opponent does go to shoot at you. You are going to have It will not die .

The other thing is that the Iyanden Spirit Seers get access to Runes of Battle

Everything on Runes of Battle is something you'd want on a Grotesque squad.

Do not get Conceal/Reveal however you can just roll up and go pick 1 from Telepathy to gain the Primaris of Psychic Scream then roll on Battle to get smething.

1. Gain a Wound back, Grotesques are multi wounds, plus you have It will not die. Or you get the template which BTW you Deepstrike with no scatter.

2. The Malediction side of this is awesome , with the LD negative from the Coven detachment the unit is at -4. Psychic Scream will destroy a unit or you know Phantom Grenade Launchers ( except Marines, but it would actually straight up kill a Flying Daemon Prince, with the launchers).

3. Enhance + or Drain, uh Grotesques have Iniative 4 , this boosts that to a 5, and WS of 5 or do the opposite and drain WS and Ini, now that this happens before shooting then you can do this to a Marine squad then shoot at them with the Shadow Weaver.

4. Protect/ Jinx , -1 Armour save, where Grotesques do not have access to Ap weaponry excepting Scissory hands , you could also actually give them a 5+ save.

5. Quicken , Restrain,

Quicken is awesome , Deep Strike, you're not going to be shooting but also it gives a huge move bonus.

6. +1 ST. Yes.....


So yeah don't think of it as Oh My God 70 points!!! that's the cost of 2 Grotesques.

Take a Spirit Seer and join them to GROTESQUES...
amazing amount of abilities. They also make Wracks really awesome but why would you take a squad of Wracks when you can just have a bunch of mini death stars of 3 Grotesques an Aberation , Haemonoculus, and a Spirit Seer.

Oh and you can take 5 of them.

Using Iyanden you don't get conceal/reveal on spirit seers at all - they swap their primaris power for a wraith specific one

That's right I always forget that about them. Anyway they still get awesome things from that chart. The fact that they get a bonus from that chart and the Grotesques cause a -1 is amazing.If your playing someone and they don't have Fearless models (Riptide) and you roll up Terrify, that's boss.Then you get the fact that they can get +1 ST etc.. etc..

Spirit Seers really look like a win all around for pairing with Grotesques.

I thought I should point out, regardless of how basic it might seem, is that if you are going to use the Animus, put it on an Archon. That BS7 drastically increases the chance to hit. Yea, S4 makes it usually 50/50 but, BS7 AP2 is ok.

Of course it's best left behind in combined Eldar/DE forces. Animus gains / loses value with a higher / lower amount of DE bodies. Also, even pure DE don't benefit that much if you run lot of Beastpacks or Non-Transports (like Voidravens or Ravagers or whatever).

Armor of Misery + Shadowfield (I call it Shadowshield since I modeled my Archon with that Cronos spirit vortex as a shield) makes my Archon defensively powerful. The LD down effect doesn't really mean much to me since my meta is like 75% Marines or Daemons. I welcome input in that regard.

What would you think of Triple Talos? Ain't 360ish points a lot for 9 MEQ savez and 1 1/2 Venom's shots?

I'd say try out some of the Coven formations , the Dark Artisan one is particularly very cool.

If you are constantly facing Daemons the Artisan one is cool because it gives -1 LD.

Also, Daemons are not in fact immune to the Torment Grenade Launcher or the Phantom Grenade Launcer.

I'm thinking about adding a five man Wraithguard squad in a Raider to my lists, to let the Wraithcannons shore up my anti-vehicle game.

Has anyone tried the Dark Artisan formation? If so:

1) Did you make the Haemonculus the Warlord?
2) What upgrades (if any) did you purchase for each model?
3) How well did it perform in terms of durability and offensive output?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm looking to include it in an 1250 list

Its Amazeballs. Seriously.

Haemonoculus , Sump or Night Mare Doll or Visage for -5 INI, Fleshgauntlet, WWP

Sump gives the Haemonoculus RAMPAGE, so D3 additional attacks he'll probably be outnumbered. Flesh Gauntlet, is amazing. 4+ to wound , 6s are instant death.

Cronos

Talos w/ Ichor Injector , maybe a Heat Lance that's Twin linked.


360ish points.

Chronos with no upgrade seems semi useless, wouldnt giving him dome shooting be a good idea so that when you deepstrike in you do something?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Chronos with no upgrade seems semi useless, wouldnt giving him dome shooting be a good idea so that when you deepstrike in you do something?

He does have a Template weapon as stock, albeit is S3 Ap3. Was thinking Spirit Probe though for FnP (4+).

Thanks for the advice Hollismason!

Yeah but it's all one unit and neither of his weapons can harm a vehicle if you want to go the Heat Lance route with the Talos, if you don't then you could just take a Stock Splinter Cannon that comes with the Talos, then the ST3 , AP 3 thing I guess.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Chronos with no upgrade seems semi useless, wouldnt giving him dome shooting be a good idea so that when you deepstrike in you do something?

You want the +1 to FNP. After that, it depends on what he's doing. I ran one in a normal list (not deep striking), and let me tell you, a T7 3+ save monster with 4+ FnP is really durable.
I just parked him on my back-field objective, and was fairly confident he'd still be there turn 2 when the rest of the army started to arrive.
He's really fun on a quad-gun, and with the 4+ cover on top of the 3+/4+FnP, he'll stick around.

In double CAD, I'd take 2, one on the comms, the other manning the gun. Everything else in reserve.
If the opponent closes in on the Cronos, you can deep strike near them and you're guys are coming into the fight with 4+ FnP.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah but it's all one unit and neither of his weapons can harm a vehicle if you want to go the Heat Lance route with the Talos, if you don't then you could just take a Stock Splinter Cannon that comes with the Talos, then the ST3 , AP 3 thing I guess.

Having taken a look, as the unit will consist of a talos and cronos, your only going to be able to shoot at one target. So the first thing to decide is whether your going to using them for anti-tank; by DSing them behind some vehicles or a nice parking lot, or if your going to be using them to kill infantry. Either way, I think its important to recognise that neither of these areas are where they excel (compared with other DE units who typically excel in certain areas). What they do bring however is a big fat threat.

If you go anti-tank (although i'd advise against, as i'll explain), then talos: heat lance or haywire with no CC upgrade, Cronos: spirit probe, as the vortex is a large blast Str 3. Personally I wouldn't really go this route, as it doesn't seem efficient to try and make the unit good at shooting tanks, especially with the haemy also in there.

Anti-infantry, Talos; keep the TL splinterpod, and change up a CC weapon for the inchor injector and not the TL shooter, then the Cronos can take the vortex or probe dependant on whether you are planning on having other DE units around or whether your more likely to be killing units alone.

However, that was an analysis based on the statement that you wanted them to be shooting when you DS'ed them, as personally im looking at their WS and BS at 3, and str at 7. To me, they aren't a unit your equipping to shoot, there a unit your equipping to assault with. So Talos: TL splinter, Ichor injector. Cronos: Probe; if even that. This way your equipped for what they are meant for; getting stuck in to some nice juicy infantry that you can hold in combat a few turns. As with the cronos if you equip it to shoot you cant take the injector, so your in combat with just CC weapons instead of a nasty fleshbane, ID on 6's. Also any turns spent locked in combat is further waste as you wont be shooting. As a bonus, at Str 7, they will be fine for assaulting vehicles anyway, so equipping them to shoot these is a little pointless.

Thats how I see em being most effective anyway, as its pretty minimal on the upgrades, but doesn't try to take them and make them efficient at something another unit in your army can do while not reducing what they are already efficient at doing.

Nightmare doll on the Haemonoculus w/ the Cronos is boss. He adds one to his feel no pain roll , so it's a 3+ basically sort of. It works with the Cronos 4+ because it's not giving a modifier he just adds to the roll.

If he is your warlord he gives reroll 1s to every Talos and Cronos within 12". I can't remember if Zealot confers to other models in the squad still but he has that eventually as well.

Hollismason wrote:


Nightmare doll on the Haemonoculus w/ the Cronos is boss. He adds one to his feel no pain roll , so it's a 3+ basically sort of. It works with the Cronos 4+ because it's not giving a modifier he just adds to the roll.

If he is your warlord he gives reroll 1s to every Talos and Cronos within 12". I can't remember if Zealot confers to other models in the squad still but he has that eventually as well.

OOOOH good spot, I hadn't considered the wording like that. So are you using the haemy to tank the wounds at the front? currently modelling up this formation myself, but have yet to run it.

A little while ago, an interesting article was posted on the Frontline Gaming website: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/10/24/spreading-the-pain-how-the-covens-supplement-helps-the-dark-eldar-codex. It talks about "combining" the PfP tables from the codex with that of the supplement. Because of the wording, a Haemonculus from the supplement still boosts a codex unit's PfP table and, while joined to the unit, at the same time uses its own table.

Combinding these has some interesting results. For example, in turn 4, a codex unit of Incubi joined by a supplement Haemonculus with Syrup has: Fleet, Night Vision, Feel no Pain (5+), Furious Charge, Fear, Fearless, It Will Not Die (Haemonculus only) and Zealot. Has anyone tried this kind of setup yet?

 Mandor wrote:
A little while ago, an interesting article was posted on the Frontline Gaming website: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/10/24/spreading-the-pain-how-the-covens-supplement-helps-the-dark-eldar-codex. It talks about "combining" the PfP tables from the codex with that of the supplement. Because of the wording, a Haemonculus from the supplement still boosts a codex unit's PfP table and, while joined to the unit, at the same time uses its own table.

Combinding these has some interesting results. For example, in turn 4, a codex unit of Incubi joined by a supplement Haemonculus with Syrup has: Fleet, Night Vision, Feel no Pain (5+), Furious Charge, Fear, Fearless, It Will Not Die (Haemonculus only) and Zealot. Has anyone tried this kind of setup yet?

Could be useful for shooting styled lists, as the suppliment allows a nasty 2-8 HQ's I believe, so you could put a suppliment haemy in with trueborn, or with large kabalite blobs sat on objectives. Then you'd have your haemy at the front tanking the shots with his FNP and IWND, not to mention the warriors would then become fearless as the game goes on. Although not a huge fan of the idea of tanking shots, it is a possibility. But depends how much you think the unit is gona be under fire. Could be extremely useful for a dark lance unit of trueborn, as i'd imagine they'd recieve a warm welcome most games.

I know we were avoiding the allies discussion, but can we revisit the issue now that the new codex has dropped? It seems like there's some new ground to go over now.

Well Eldar is the obvious choice, but I think out of all of it, the Iyanden supplement gives the Coven supplement the biggest bonus.Why?Because of the wording of their special rule Freakish Spectacle, it stacks with other units from different detachments that have Freakish Spectacle.So throw in a few Spirit Seers for Psychic Scream and two or more formations for a total of -3 to all units around it or more.

It's completely possible with the units and detachment listed to actually have -3 or more to a LD.

Not to shabby.

Especially when you consider that Iyanden Spirit Seers are basically souped up Warlocks that can get Psychic Shriek.

Here try and beat this up when it deep strikes into your Deployment Zone


7 Grotesques
Haemonoculus from Coven w/ Sump, WWP , Flesh Gauntlet ( He can come from a Formation specifically the Grotesquirie )
Spirit Seer

3 Grotesques in a Falcon ( Yes, they can!)


Haemonoculus
Talos
Cronos ( gives +1 Feel No Pain to Grotesques near him)



Congrats on Turn 2 all that's going to show up in your deployment zone give everything around it -2 LD and then start Psychic Shrieking.

It can even get more disgusting when you consider that you can fit 4 Grotesques and 2 Spirit Seers in 1 Raider.

So you could have


7 Grotesques
Haemonoculus w/ Webway Portal, Flesh Gauntlet, Night Mare Doll or Sump
2 Spirit Seers

4 Grotesques
2 Spirit Seers
Raider

Haemonoculus w/
Talos
Cronos

Place each unit near the Cronos for +1 FNP, roll on Telepathy to get Invisibility or just take Psychic Shriek, then roll the rest on Battle , so you can give units +1 Armour Save and all the other crazy Malediction that come in Battle that add a crap load of power to your Grotesques.

All of which can land in your oppenents deployment zone and give -2 LD, more if you took a Ally of Dark Eldar an a Archon with Armour of Misery or Archangel of Pain if you just want to be a dick. So that everyone is unhappy.

If you landed in a Tyranid army or near it with the Archangel of Pain and 2 Formations of Coven you'd give everything -4 LD, then they'd all have to take a LD check at -4. It can actually get even higher as Battle gives you a chance to get a Malediction thats -3, and the guy comes with a Psychic Shriek. So yes, please take a LD check on -7 or more on 3D6 ignore Armour and Cover.

Want to see a Chaos Daemon player Cry, give him -2 LD then hit him with a Torment Grenade Launcher. What, no you don't get armour or your 2+ Jink.

Want to see Riptides lose their gak and run shrieking from the Battlefield with -4 LD checks?

That's not even counting if you take Phantom Grenade Launchers or Torment Grenade Launchers.

Oh you think that Incubi are bad ass with a Haemonoculus from the coven Detachment add a Spirit seer rolling on Battle with them.

Enjoy a Squad that can get 2+ Armour , Feel No Pain, Fearless, Furious Charge, Fear.

Iyanden Spiritseers are basically steroids for the Dark Eldar army. Every Single Spell Helps The Entire Army.

This

Haemonoculus w/ WWP , Syrup, Fleshgauntlet ( From the Coven Detachment)
7 Incubi w/ Klaivex
2 Spirit Seers

Is 400 Points.

Comes stock with Fearless, Feel No Pain 5+, Causes Fear, Gives -1 LD to Everything around it. Then you start rolling on the Runes of Battle , 2 or more times.

Want to charge someone and give them -4 to their LD against a Fear check? Runes of Battle.

Want to run D6 +3 ? Runes of Battle

Want to have a 2+ Save and Feel No Pain 5+? Runes of Battle

Want to be able to charge someone with ST6 AP2 ? Runes of Battle ( Furious charge, Klaive)

Want to give back a wound to a guy who can already get 1 back from It will not die? Runes of Battle

What scale ranking are all the Coven formations?

Currently using Scalpel Squadron as it's a cheap way to get two Venoms into my army (located here ) but I am thinking about what other formations to use in 1250, aside the Big Nasty Carnival of Pain..

A full Carnival runs above 2000 pts, unfortunately.

Most of the others fit nicely together in smaller games.

Use a Dark Artisan, you will not be disappointed, plus he can be your warlord. Give him the nightmare doll and a fleshgauntlet then just have fun.

I see alot of players trying GrotStar, has anyone tried using ReaverStar? Take 12 Reaver bikes, give them 4 cluster caltrops, stick 2 Farseers in there and you have a deathstar that has Hit/Run, Fearless, and likely Invis(You could decide to roll on Runes of Fate as well, as getting Doom would do wonders for HoW).

Has anyone playtested that yet?

jathomas2013 wrote:
I see alot of players trying GrotStar, has anyone tried using ReaverStar? Take 12 Reaver bikes, give them 4 cluster caltrops, stick 2 Farseers in there and you have a deathstar that has Hit/Run, Fearless, and likely Invis(You could decide to roll on Runes of Fate as well, as getting Doom would do wonders for HoW).

Has anyone playtested that yet?

What I'm running now. Charged a unit of T-wolf Calvary, next turn got charged by a second Calvary unit. Neutered the first, survived the second with 1-2 left. HnR out to let the rest of the army mop up from there and go around nabbing objectives.

It's not rol- your-face-on-the-board-easy like SeerStar was, but I'd say point for point it's actually better. Where SeerStar's claim to fame was being impossible to kill and good in HtH, these guys come with decent survivability stock and a lot more offensive power. Being as you're still keeping the bulk of the defensive powers with your farseers, it's a fantastic unit.

What are people running Grotbomb or whatever you want to call it with?

I thought this would be ridiculous...

Formation

Grotesquirie

10 x Grots w/ Abberation w/

Haemonoculus w/ Nightmare Doll, Flesh Gauntlet

3 x Grots w/ Falcon as a Transport ( Falcons halfway decent vehicle)

Eldar Ally

Karandras


But I can never remember whether Karandras ability of Infiltrate works on squads he joins or whatever.

 Ascalam wrote:
A full Carnival runs above 2000 pts, unfortunately.

Most of the others fit nicely together in smaller games.

Between 2k and 2500 with a skeleton crew. Over 3k once you kit them out to be viable.

But I can never remember whether Karandras ability of Infiltrate works on squads he joins or whatever.

It's just generic infiltrate, so as long as you play that ICs confer it to their unit it's fine. Most people do, so shouldn't be an issue.