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No. Space Marines use Godwin bolters. SoB use Godwin deaz.

Exactly. And there is more that contributes to the feasibility as a weapon - not just weight. Not just recoil.
Maximum ammo capacity is a big deciding factor. Dimensions are a big factor. It's simply not ergonomic to use a weapon as a "child" with 1.8m average size compared to an "adult" in massive armor and at least triple bodymass with ~ 2.2m average size

 Ashiraya wrote:
I've always argued that SM bolters have higher firepower than human bolters.

We have numerous mentions of SM bolters being too big for normal humans to lift unaided, and if you are going to bother with making supersoldiers that are great platforms for heavier weapons then giving them heavier weapons is probably a good idea.

Human and Astartes bolters have the same ammunition and caliber(confirmed fact), but the weapons are different in other respects.

Obviously, the grips and triggers will be differently sized. The marine bolter can also have extra subsystems and other add-ons the human versions can't. The Marine bolter will also actually have less recoil due to its increased weight, which also makes it useful as a bludgeoning weapon.

The increased mass will also make the bolter more rugged. Marines are probably pretty hard on their weaponry, so they need to be durable. When you can bend steel with your bare hands your gun needs to be large to take the punishment.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the problem is that you assume a bigger gun means a more powerful gun. As they use the same bolts as far as we know they will do the same damage per shot. SM bolters will probably have different mechanical operations (they may fire faster, or have bigger mags), but they will still do the same damage per shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Keep wrote:
well good luck wielding a 25kg weapon with the kick of a mule and prohibitively heavy ammo.

Actually, the design of bolts was to allow humans to use them, that's why they have the rocket propulsion (IIRC). They have a smaller kick than an actual .75 round, as that part is only to eject it from the gun to load a new one.

No, the key difference is that they can utilize longer rounds with more powder/fuel stuffed into the cartridge/shell than a normal human could tolerate without their shoulder being liquified. Like hypersonic special ammunition bolts. Damage with firearms is not linear, and is affected by modifiers such as width, length, velocity, mass, tip structure (hollow point, steel core, etc), and then there's the actual warhead, which could be anything from HEAT to a SABOT that relies on kinetic energy to penn instead of superheated streams of metal. 5.56x45mm Hollow Point is going to do terrible things to flesh yet fail to penetrate some body armor, while 5.56x45mm steel core is going to shred body armor but won't expand while penetrating tissue.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I've always argued that SM bolters have higher firepower than human bolters.

We have numerous mentions of SM bolters being too big for normal humans to lift unaided, and if you are going to bother with making supersoldiers that are great platforms for heavier weapons then giving them heavier weapons is probably a good idea.

Human and Astartes bolters have the same ammunition and caliber(confirmed fact), but the weapons are different in other respects.

Obviously, the grips and triggers will be differently sized. The marine bolter can also have extra subsystems and other add-ons the human versions can't. The Marine bolter will also actually have less recoil due to its increased weight, which also makes it useful as a bludgeoning weapon.

The increased mass will also make the bolter more rugged. Marines are probably pretty hard on their weaponry, so they need to be durable. When you can bend steel with your bare hands your gun needs to be large to take the punishment.

It still makes no sense to me. SM are big enough to carry around and fire these weapons



By hand. So if you make such an extremely sturdy firing platform extremely well suited to accurately wielding and firing weapons far more powerful than normal men can, why would they waste that and give them a gun Joey McRedshirt could use?

'Imperium is stupid' is not an option since Marines have walked around with those bolters since the Great Crusade, and rarity is not a concern either since Marines are rarer than almost all Imperial weapons anyway!

It'd be like outfitting a Tiger II turret with an MG42.

Same reason we hand out assault rifles to modern soldiers rather than hand everyone and their mother SAW's and whatnot.

No, that would only be odd if we first had gnome soldiers and then issued our normal soldiers the same weapons.

Space Marines are also custom-designed, purpose-built.

Bolters are not a common weapon for IG. There is a huge difference. Heavy Bolters are made for everything, it's not hard to adapt one variant (such as a Leman Russ sponson) to accomodate a bipod and attach a two-man gunner/loader team. But bolters only come in one style, personal weapon, and for the stock IG such a weapon's value far outstrips its usefulness as most IG won't survive long enough to make the investment worthwhile.

Its the difference between the Russian army of WW2 outfitting their troops with top-of-the-line modern assault rifles (or what passed for ARs then) vs the bolt action rifle from WW1 with no ammo. The modern guns will be better, but the man carrying it won't live long enough for it to matter, and then the weapon is lost, captured or generally a waste of investment.


With the heavy bolter, its the case of the Russian army using WW1 machine guns. Archaic? Yes. But its effectiveness is much more, as even a WW1 gun allows a team to hold a chokepoint against a much strong force and put out a much higher K/D ratio than were they armed with those ARs, with less people dying on the Russian/IG (closest approximation) side and loads more dying on the German/Xenos/Heretic side.



Also, Wyzilla
: you comment about the type and core of the round. While not much is shown in detail the consistant detail is that the round penetrates the target (and is armour penetrating) and then explodes once inside. This implies there is some sort of sensor or mechanism that is activated when the tip strikes a target that ignites the explosives inside on a delayed fuse, to give time to penetrate first. This would also mean its likely to be a steel core round to provide the penetration as you say, but with the explosive doing the main damage to flesh instead of the hollow point on other rounds as you also mention.

...It still doesn't answer the question of why you'd invest so much in making a superstrong supersoldier with strength-enhancing armour and then not give him a gun with more firepower than what anyone could wield.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...It still doesn't answer the question of why you'd invest so much in making a superstrong supersoldier with strength-enhancing armour and then not give him a gun with more firepower than what anyone could wield.

...they do? What, are you thinking any old schmuck in the Guard with 6 weeks basic training could handle a bolter? Space Marines train 24/7, literally to become proficient with it. Its not feasible to equip everyone with Heavy Bolters. Why?
1) more expensive. Bigger gun, bigger ammo, higher rate of consumption of ammo, more cost.
2) Weight. Its not too mobile, even on a SM

Think of who in the IG actually get bolters. Senior officers. Commissioned. People with status and family connections and a lifespan longer than a goldfish. Who can afford to get Bolters and training with them.

Bolters be much stronger in fluff than in crunch as well. though considerably inconstant.

as well consider that AP5 goes straight through flak level armor. if we are to believe that that is equivalent to today flak/armored vests. than even that cant stop it.

On top of that. the SM are shock troops. designed to go in and feth up the HQ. most things they are probably going in to feth up are human insurrections. and other heresy type things.

Not sure what the numbers would be for chaos space marines though.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I've always argued that SM bolters have higher firepower than human bolters.

We have numerous mentions of SM bolters being too big for normal humans to lift unaided, and if you are going to bother with making supersoldiers that are great platforms for heavier weapons then giving them heavier weapons is probably a good idea.

Human and Astartes bolters have the same ammunition and caliber(confirmed fact), but the weapons are different in other respects.

Obviously, the grips and triggers will be differently sized. The marine bolter can also have extra subsystems and other add-ons the human versions can't. The Marine bolter will also actually have less recoil due to its increased weight, which also makes it useful as a bludgeoning weapon.

The increased mass will also make the bolter more rugged. Marines are probably pretty hard on their weaponry, so they need to be durable. When you can bend steel with your bare hands your gun needs to be large to take the punishment.

It still makes no sense to me. SM are big enough to carry around and fire these weapons

Spoiler:

By hand. So if you make such an extremely sturdy firing platform extremely well suited to accurately wielding and firing weapons far more powerful than normal men can, why would they waste that and give them a gun Joey McRedshirt could use?

'Imperium is stupid' is not an option since Marines have walked around with those bolters since the Great Crusade, and rarity is not a concern either since Marines are rarer than almost all Imperial weapons anyway!

It'd be like outfitting a Tiger II turret with an MG42.

You are ignoring the other limitations of the bolter. Namely its expense to operate and manufacture. Thats why only marines and SoB get it and not guardsmen.

And sure, marines can carry Heavy Bolters around. So what? He isn't carrying it like soldiers today would carry a SAW, he's carrying it like the mini-guns in all those old 80s movies were carried. Its still not a light thing for the marine to carry. The fact he can brace it at all is a testament to his strength when normally it requires a tripod.

It would be like a human today carrying a mortar around and firing it from his back.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...It still doesn't answer the question of why you'd invest so much in making a superstrong supersoldier with strength-enhancing armour and then not give him a gun with more firepower than what anyone could wield.

...they do? What, are you thinking any old schmuck in the Guard with 6 weeks basic training could handle a bolter? Space Marines train 24/7, literally to become proficient with it. Its not feasible to equip everyone with Heavy Bolters. Why?
1) more expensive. Bigger gun, bigger ammo, higher rate of consumption of ammo, more cost.
2) Weight. Its not too mobile, even on a SM

Think of who in the IG actually get bolters. Senior officers. Commissioned. People with status and family connections and a lifespan longer than a goldfish. Who can afford to get Bolters and training with them.

No, it still doesn't make sense. You're just thinking from a 'who gets trusted with what' perspective. I said it's a gun anyone could wield, not that anyone does wield. The problem is that you're going to great pains to making your Space Marine ridiculuously strong and extremely suited to carrying more powerful weapons, without exploiting that investment. Your LMG may be a top-of-the line gun that's really expensive, but it's still a waste to put it in the turret of a Tiger II.

Cost is a non-issue. Making a Marine is a lot of time and money to begin with. Arming him properly is proportionately a minor concern.

As for weight, well, just arm him with some bolt weapon between a bolter and heavy bolter in size. Something heavy and powerful enough to warrant his massive strength and ability to keep much larger weapons stable, but still somewhat mobile.

A Space Marine is strong enough to rip sponsons off tanks and tear up walls. I think swinging a demi-heavy bolter would be a non-issue for him.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


You are ignoring the other limitations of the bolter. Namely its expense to operate and manufacture. Thats why only marines and SoB get it and not guardsmen.

And sure, marines can carry Heavy Bolters around. So what? He isn't carrying it like soldiers today would carry a SAW, he's carrying it like the mini-guns in all those old 80s movies were carried. Its still not a light thing for the marine to carry. The fact he can brace it at all is a testament to his strength when normally it requires a tripod.

It would be like a human today carrying a mortar around and firing it from his back.

It's not about the cost, it's about making proper use of the platform. Autocannons are huge and are dirt cheap enough to issue down to the chaff Guardsmen squads. Something larger than a Bolter to properly exploit the wielder's stability does not have to be much more expensive, not in the light of who is wielding it.

Heavy bolters can also be carried by normal men like Harker. Harker may be special, but he is explicitly carrying it like he'd carry a lasgun. That is obscene and far too much to handwave away due to him eating his spinach every day. And I doubt Harker's strength could match that of a Marine. So heavy bolters are not a problem.

Remember marines also have that huge backpack of ammo they're carrying. Harker isn't carrying any ammo at all besides that belt. Obviously he gets followed around by someone to feed him ammo.

How much is that backpack going to weigh, 30 kilograms?

That won't bog down a guy who can lift a car without problems.

Anyway, my argument is not to give them heavy bolters, but rather something between heavy bolters and bolters to properly exploit their stability and ability to carry more firepower without sacrificing accuracy.

Giving them more firepower (and both you and I know that Space Marines can carry bigger guns than normal humans without encumberance) would not be adverse to their shock troop role.

Why exactly do you think the Bolter is not a good choice?

Its the perfect size for them.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why exactly do you think the Bolter is not a good choice?

Its the perfect size for them.

1. Astartes bolters and human bolters allegedly have equal firepower.

2. Humans are perfectly able to use human bolters. They are seen both among inquisitorial acolytes and guard officers.

3. Space Marines are way way stronger and more stable than humans, allowing them to use bigger and more powerful guns without sacrificing stability, accuracy and mobility.

Ergo

4. Space Marines do not properly use their capacity to use bigger guns, wasting a major use for their superhuman strength. In fact, that capacity is sacrificed to make all non-relevant parts of the gun larger, making it more tough for melee use... except that should never be a priority, especially not since they are all carrying combat blades and/or chainswords if melee becomes prudent!

Why do they have to max out their strength with their basic firearm? Why not give them a weapon they'd have way more control over, giving them unparalleled accuracy?

They don't have to max out their strength. Even if the bolter was the limit of what they could use with 'unparallelled accuracy' (which it isn't - they are pretty damn accurate with lascannons too), it's still horribly inefficient to give them bolters that are 5% gun and 95% junk to make them sturdier as melee weapons.

Not only could they easily use bigger weapons with great accuracy, they should also use weapons that are more gun, less melee weapon, and let their standard issue melee weapons do that job instead.

They are not Orks.

I'm not sure what weapon you'd give them though.

And the SM did have a better weapon, volkalite weapons. But they couldn't supply enough of them to the legions.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Human and Astartes bolters have the same ammunition and caliber(confirmed fact), but the weapons are different in other respects.

Where does it say that they have the same ammunition ? Caliber, i've seen that some bolters are 0.75, but ammo i can not recall. It's also fact that there exist other bolter then "THE bolter caliber" and "THE heavy bolter caliber"

Why do they have to max out their strength with their basic firearm? Why not give them a weapon they'd have way more control over, giving them unparalleled accuracy?

because unparalleled accuracy does not allow them to penetrate through thicker armor?
"Sir, my gaze does not penetrate steel plate!" ... "just gaze harder!"

Helps for Scions.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm not sure what weapon you'd give them though.

And the SM did have a better weapon, volkalite weapons. But they couldn't supply enough of them to the legions.

The Space Marines no longer rampantly grow in number like they used to. Volkite is lost tech so it's a no-go, but otherwise it's the kind of thing that would be ideal.

Marines don't give a gak about the tech-heresy of inventions, so building a demi-heavy bolter should be simple enough.

Where does it say that bolters don't all use the same ammo? Where is the myth of different calibers coming from?

The only stated caliber of bolters and bolt pistols(and stormbolters) is .75 cal. Until you have a canon source saying there are other calibers all normal bolt weapons(except heavy bolters) are .75 cal.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They don't have to max out their strength. Even if the bolter was the limit of what they could use with 'unparallelled accuracy' (which it isn't - they are pretty damn accurate with lascannons too), it's still horribly inefficient to give them bolters that are 5% gun and 95% junk to make them sturdier as melee weapons.

Not only could they easily use bigger weapons with great accuracy, they should also use weapons that are more gun, less melee weapon, and let their standard issue melee weapons do that job instead.

They are not Orks.

If you look at older schematics of bolters, you'll see that there is actually a lot of stuff inside there. Its not just ablative material. There are targeting, self-repair, unjamming, and multiple other mechanisms in a bolter.

 Grey Templar wrote:


If you look at older schematics of bolters, you'll see that there is actually a lot of stuff inside there. Its not just ablative material. There are targeting, self-repair, unjamming, and multiple other mechanisms in a bolter.

Neuro connected sights, Finger print sensors to keep baddies from using the gun ala that one scene from Judge dread, targeting computers and such as well IIRC

Also a handy ammo counter. And as I recall it also had a maintenance kit.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also a handy ammo counter. And as I recall it also had a maintenance kit.

Id be surprised if it didnt have snack dispensers too.

 Desubot wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also a handy ammo counter. And as I recall it also had a maintenance kit.

Id be surprised if it didnt have snack dispensers too.

Nah, thats in the ass end of the power armor

So they sacrifice firepower space in a big gun for that?

I can see an ammo counter as being handy and all, but I'd argue a shot that kills the enemy still makes a greater difference.

The bolter is a perfectly acceptable weapon. Just because its lackluster in the game doesn't mean its bad in the fluff. Game =/= fluff.

In Deathwatch the bolter is pretty damn good. It actually does more damage on average to soft targets than a Plasma gun does(2D10+5 vs 1D10+9). It just has a better Pen value. Bolters also roll an additional D10 for damage and drop the lowest because they have the Tearing rule.