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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:21:42
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Da Boss wrote:I think the Catholic Church essentially faces a marketing problem.
Comparing the Church to a business is common but always does more to obscure than to facilitate understanding. The issue is not a "marketing" but rather "communication." The Church is not trying to sell anything, or should not be. Rather, the Church is about preserving and proclaiming the authentic message of Christ. The trouble with homophobia is not that it "doesn't sell too good anymore" but rather that it is contrary to Christianity. Da Boss wrote:If it makes you feel any better, my anger at the failed political systems in the republic is even greater.
Well, my point is kind of that the whole thing is a single package. It's not a matter of picking and choosing, or shouldn't be in the interests of accuracy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:27:54
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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We'll derail the thread if we continue that discussion, though it's always a refreshing and interesting one, so I'll leave off here unless you want to PM me about it.
On the marketing thing though, whether it's marketing or communication is rather semantic, but fair enough- they are failing to communicate the message that being a Catholic is a good thing to be, and so they must adopt a new strategy to communicate, either by emphasising or dropping certain parts of the message.
I mean, as a lapsed catholic, I feel that the church is facing a crisis in the next decades especially with regard to the numbers in the priesthood. In my holidays I went back to my old University in Maynooth. The south campus there is one of the oldest educational institutions in the country, and it includes a seminary. The graduating class of each year are displayed on the walls of the corridors of the seminary in photographs, and it really is quite interesting and sobering to walk down those gorgeous hallways watching the class sizes dwindle away and the ethnic make up of the priests educated there change over time. The church is not recruiting enough priests to replace it's losses, and that is a big concern. I think it reflects a disconnect between the church's values, or how it communicates them, and the values of society in many countries.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:31:58
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Ahtman wrote:that the proclamation doesn't really change the issues that the gay community, Catholic or otherwise, has
I don't think the "gay community" (that is, a lobby demographic) is relevant. This is not a political matter, like state-recognized gay marriage. But I also disagree at a much deeper level for reasons I have already explained at length and which none of your posts deal with. Da Boss wrote:whether it's marketing or communication is rather semantic
You know that's not true. Are you marketing something to me with your posts or just trying to make your feelings and thoughts clear? As to the shortage of priests, that's really simple. Would you ever recommend to your son that he become a priest? I mean, obviously as a lapsed Catholic with all kinds of anger issues about our religion, you wouldn't. But I am on board and I still wouldn't. There are so many reasons why being a priest is a sad, lonely, thankless career. In the past, things were very different -- becoming a priest meant education, prestige, and not infrequently a comfortable living.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:37:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:36:47
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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There is no real change here. Homosexuals are allowed in the church, and as long as they don't act on their homosexuality, they won't be considered as sinners. That has been the party line since way back when I was growing up in the Church.
Wake me up when the 'as long as they don't act on it' part changes. That is the real issue.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:37:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:42:08
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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You are aware that everyone at mass is considered a sinner?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:45:23
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Sorry Manchu... couldn't help it.
My contribution to thread: Are we more upset that the Church is "like this" or when someone justifies policy matters (ie, SSM) because of their religion?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:47:42
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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@Manchu" Let me rephrase. A guy who doesn't commit a homosexual act and gives a good confession is not considered to be in a state of 'mortal sin'.
A guy who commits a homosexual act, gives a good confession except that he does not ask God for forgiveness for the homosexual act is considered to be in a state of 'mortal sin'.
Nothing new here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:48:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:48:27
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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If a Priest or any other Catholic is a practising homosexual, why not just lie about it? As long as they are considered chaste then it doesn't matter. Right? And please don't tell me that Catholics don't lie. That would just be embarrassing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:49:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:51:01
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Manchu: I will take your point on the marketing thing, though I still feel it is a small jump between communicating and marketing, but I guess marketing has connotations which might be insulting in this context.
On the priesthood, I mean, yeah I agree. I knew some seminarians from University, and I always wondered at their motivations and so on.
But the core issue I think they face, and what makes the priesthood so lonely and isolating is precisely that the church is out of step with broader society in the developed world on so many issues.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:53:11
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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By whom? There is no "confession punch card" you have to show before receiving. If your conscience is clean, there is no obstacle. Many do. It would be a very great change if they felt they did not have to. This Synod report is a step in that direction.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:54:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:55:46
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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We simply ask that you read the thread before posting.
Not super hard.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:56:40
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Da Boss wrote:what makes the priesthood so lonely and isolating is precisely that the church is out of step with broader society in the developed world on so many issues
I disagree. I think it is partly a matter of a huge amount of ignorance and prejudice on the part of secular society, which we see some clear example even ITT. And I think the other part really comes down to terrible leadership by the bishops, who in the States are almost all canon lawyers/administrators rather than pastors.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:59:15
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote:By whom? There is no "confession punch card" you have to show before receiving. If your conscience is clean, there is no obstacle.
Well, what I am getting at is the guy who fully understands that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are mortal sins, doesn't agree, doesn't care, and does it anyway, and is not repentant.
Perhaps Catholicism has evolved to the point where said hypothetical homosexual is not considered to be in 'mortal sin', because he sincerely doesn't agree with the Church. I thought that was derided as 'Cafeteria Catholicism', but if there has been such an evolution, I view it as a positivie development.
P.S.I suppose I wouldn't be surprised, seeing as birth control is (or at least used to be) a mortal sin, but most Catholics view the position as laughable and practice birth control anyway, and there doesn't seem to be any major issue with this outisde the right wing of the Church.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 20:02:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 19:59:23
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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"Many do"...But doesn't that make you sad? As a clearly passionate Catholic, aren't you a little upset that some of your churches figure heads have to lie to others and themselves to stay a part of that religion?
That's a genuine question by the way. I'm not trying to wind anyone up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agreed, apologies for the gate crash....
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 20:02:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 20:01:50
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Does the prejudice from the public not stem from the church stance on homosexuality, contraception and women's issues in general though?
I will admit, there are lunatic hatemongers screaming that the pope is the antichrist and so on, but I think those people are a little easier for the priests to dismiss than half hearted catholics who feel like the church doesn't really match up with that they believe due to the liberalisation of society in recent years.
I guess the greatest shame about stuff like this is that it poisons the well for those activist priests (and nuns), people who have dedicated their entire lives to help the needy in a way that is rarely ever seen. Ireland's most tireless activist for the homeless is a catholic priest, and he is a great person who has completely given his life over to other people in a way that many in today's world find hard to comprehend. But the institution he belongs to sort of taints people's view on him, despite his work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 20:02:35
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote:what I am getting at is the guy who fully understands that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are mortal sins, doesn't agree, doesn't care, and does it anyway, and is not repentant
Sure that is very common. Replace "homosexual acts" with "use birth control" for example. As we learned in 2012, 90% of all Catholic women in the US use birth control. It really does pain me, if you want to know the truth. It pains me to see friends who are gay feel unwelcome at the sacraments especially at times in their life, for example, when they are rejected by loved ones, when they need their faith the most. That is exactly why I think this Synod report is so important. Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Boss wrote:Does the prejudice from the public not stem from the church stance on homosexuality, contraception and women's issues in general though?
I don't think so. Like all prejudice, it stems from ignorance. Da Boss wrote:But the institution he belongs to sort of taints people's view on him, despite his work.
Exactly why I asked if you had seen Calvary.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 20:06:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 20:17:31
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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It's on my to do list, and you just bumped it up several notches. I will see if I can find it anywhere in Dusseldorf. I was able to find the Guard, so perhaps I'll find Calvary too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 21:11:11
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Rome (CNN) -- Under furious assault from conservative Catholics, the Vatican backtracked Tuesday on its surprisingly positive assessment of gays and same-sex relationships.
In a report Monday, the Vatican had said that gays and lesbians have "gifts to offer" the Christian community and acknowledged that same-sex couples can give "precious support" to one other.
The statement, an interim report from a closely watched meeting of Catholic clergy here, was widely praised by liberals. It is believed to be the first time the Vatican has said anything positive about gay relationships.
One longtime Vatican journalist called the statement a "pastoral earthquake."
But many conservatives complained that the statement watered down church teaching and did not accurately reflect their discussions here, where nearly 200 Catholic leaders are meeting to debate pastoral approaches to modern family life.
Pope Francis indicates talk of inclusion Vatican: Church should welcome gays Vatican changing tone on homosexuality
One South African cardinal called Monday's statement, which also included positive language about unmarried couples who cohabitate, "irredeemable."
"The message has gone out that this is what the synod is saying, this is what the Catholic Church is saying," said Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier, referring to the special meeting of Catholic clergy gathered here through Saturday.
"It's not what we're saying at all."
In response to such reactions, the Vatican backtracked a bit Tuesday. In a statement, it said the report on gays and lesbians was a "working document," not the final word from Rome.
The Vatican also said that it wanted to welcome gays and lesbians in the church, but not create "the impression of a positive evaluation" of same-sex relationships, or, for that matter, of unmarried couples who live together.
But gay rights groups say that's precisely the impression the Vatican gave Monday when it said:
"Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community. Are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?"
Such statements seem to be in line with the more merciful approach the church has taken toward gays and lesbians under Pope Francis. In 2013, Francis famously said, "Who am I to judge" gay people?
On Monday morning, just before the Vatican released its positive report on gays, Francis preached that laws that do not lead people to Jesus are "dead," and that Christ did "strange things" such as hanging out with sinners and tax collectors.
The goal of the meeting here, officially called the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the Family, is to present proposals for a larger meeting to be held in October 2015.
Which means there's a long road ahead before any doctrinal or pastoral changes happen in the church.
In the meantime, conservative and liberal bishops have been fiercely jousting in the court of public opinion.
Cardinal Raymond Burke, an American and head of the Vatican's supreme court, said the report "lacks a solid foundation in the sacred Scriptures." Other conservatives called it a "betrayal."
Opinion: 3 ways the Catholic church should embrace gay rights
Liberal Catholics and gay activists, on the other hand, heralded Monday's statement and said that some conservative pushback was probably inevitable, given how hostile some corners of the church are to change.
"I actually don't think this is as much of a backtrack as we usually see!" said Marianne Duddy-Burke, head of the gay rights group Dignity USA.
"I think that response to this report was swift and intense, and I'm sure many bishops want to be sure people aren't reading more into it than is there," she continued. "However, it is undeniable that there has never been any Vatican document that made positive, respectful statements about same-sex relationships, so that is an undeniable breakthrough."
Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, echoed that sentiment.
"Regardless of the fact that this is a working document, it is still significant in that it reveals a strong current of affirmative attitudes at high levels in the church towards lesbians and gay people," he said.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 22:42:51
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think this is pretty much an obvious attempt by the RC church to get more people in the pews while trying not to lose the ones they have.
Nothing but PR. I think they will say and do whatever they have to get more people in, whether they really believe it or not.
GG
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/14 22:50:02
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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generalgrog wrote:I think they will say and do whatever they have to get more people in, whether they really believe it or not.
Ignorance and prejudice, as usual.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 01:16:18
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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This is an excellent summary from a Protestant perspective: A midpoint report from this month's Synod of Bishops reveals that Catholic leaders are considering more conciliatory language toward gays and lesbians, divorced and remarried Catholics, and couples who live together before getting married. Meeting with nearly 200 senior prelates and several dozen lay experts and observers at the Vatican, Pope Francis has deliberately engineered a lively discussion of issues concerning marriage and family life. This assembly, and a follow-up summit in 2015, will help shape the pontiff's legacy. Reporters and commentators are producing a flurry of analysis mostly centered on the question of whether the synod portends a change in substance or merely a change in tone. Such is the abiding question of Francis' papacy. Yet through these lively debates in Catholic life runs a theme that is as old as the Reformation: the role of individual conscience. The conflict between conscience and authority is the pre-eminent battle underlying the synod's debates. Even the dramatic turn from language such as "living in sin" and "intrinsically disordered" is a tacit nod to conscience over authority. If there is a common thread among issues as diverse as contraception, divorce, premarital sex and homosexuality, it may be the limits of the church's authority over Catholics' behavior and consciences. Protestant denominations vary in how much they have abandoned traditional teaching on these matters. Evangelicals have mostly accommodated birth control and divorce, but not premarital or gay sex. Mainline Protestants rarely enforce what weak prohibitions on premarital sex remain, and are more rapidly accepting gays and lesbians in the life and ministry of their churches. The Catholic church, of course, is against all these things. Built on a consistent ethic of life, strong demands for economic justice and a framework of natural law, the church's moral vision is, for many, more compelling than conservative Protestants' selective literalism. But even the church's significant authority is insufficient to bind its adherents' consciences to the fullness of its teaching. This conflict manifests vividly in debates over worthiness to receive Communion, which, as certain pro-choice Catholic politicians will attest, can seem more like carrots and sticks than bread and wine. The hallmark Protestant idea of priesthood of all believers allows the individual -- whose relationship with God is unmediated -- to determine his or her fitness to receive the sacrament. The Catholic church, meanwhile, retains a few layers of priestly and catechetical scrutiny. Last week at the synod, Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois of Paris worried that couples "do not believe that the use of contraceptive methods is a sin and therefore they tend not to speak of them in confession and so they receive Communion untroubled." Perhaps because married women might think it inappropriate to be questioned about contraception by a cadre of celibate men. Either way, confessors tend not to press the issue, and no one pulls married couples out of the Communion line. Few believe a solid majority of Catholic women or their husbands will burn in hell for using artificial contraceptives. In the case of cohabitating couples, there is little the church can do. Marriage preparation classes acknowledge its sinfulness, but priests and bishops cannot afford to turn away half of what is already a declining number of couples seeking marriage in the church. The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops advises that priests can point couples toward a holier union by "supporting the couple's plans for the future rather than chastising them for the past." Yet even for Catholics whose relationships put them in a perpetual state of mortal sin, individual conscience and church authority are often in fierce tension. In practice, LGBT Catholics often rely on their own consciences in determining whether they will go forward for Communion. In some locales, it is common enough for partnered gays and lesbians to receive Communion that it only makes news when they are turned away. Enforcement of sacramental exclusion tends to fall most frequently and publicly on divorced Catholics who have remarried without seeking an annulment. It seems uneven that perpetrators of heinous crimes -- including Catholic inmates on death row -- may receive Communion in prison (so long as they are not divorced and remarried) while civilly remarried Catholics are deemed unworthy to receive Communion for the rest of their lives regardless of how decently and ethically they live. While homosexuality and remarriage are grabbing headlines, it is actually contraception that may be most relevant. Acceptance of contraception was decisive, with most Catholics' attitudes barely running behind Protestants'. It largely explains the slow-but-sure Christian elevation of conscience over authority. As a Protestant, I can live in the tension between wishing for compassion toward LGBT people and grace for remarried Catholics on the one hand, and an abiding sympathy for the Catholic church's comprehensive moral vision on the other. The Catholic church is a humane bulwark against a destructively permissive and pornographic culture where everything is commodified and nothing is sacred. To that end, perhaps it would be better if more Catholics submitted to church teaching. But on some level, I remain grateful that Rome has no authority over my conscience. The trouble for the church is that a lot of Catholics think like I do.
http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/conscience-vs-authority-pope-francis-synod-family
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 01:16:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 08:10:22
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Manchu wrote: generalgrog wrote:I think they will say and do whatever they have to get more people in, whether they really believe it or not.
Ignorance and prejudice, as usual.
Religious institutions in the West have been suffering decline in membership (both active and passive) for quite some time now. There have been a number of splits of various religious groups for genuine differences in attitudes towards various groups and interpretations of the bible (and/or religious texts of choice).
Suggesting that some of these splits or changes in attitude had more to do with retaining membership numbers isn't exactly a stretch - especially when the noises coming from the group in question appear to be restatements of prior policy which have little to no practical (or indeed any) impact upon changing practice or core beliefs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 08:53:33
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Colonel
This Is Where the Fish Lives
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SilverMK2 wrote: Manchu wrote: generalgrog wrote:I think they will say and do whatever they have to get more people in, whether they really believe it or not.
Ignorance and prejudice, as usual.
Religious institutions in the West have been suffering decline in membership (both active and passive) for quite some time now. There have been a number of splits of various religious groups for genuine differences in attitudes towards various groups and interpretations of the bible (and/or religious texts of choice).
Suggesting that some of these splits or changes in attitude had more to do with retaining membership numbers isn't exactly a stretch - especially when the noises coming from the group in question appear to be restatements of prior policy which have little to no practical (or indeed any) impact upon changing practice or core beliefs.
Fair point.
Except that the Roman Catholic Church has 1.2 billion members worldwide, so I don't think they are really hurting for members, especially considering that their numbers have grown at a steady pace in recent years.
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d-usa wrote:"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 11:00:33
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Nothing but PR. I think they will say and do whatever they have to get more people in, whether they really believe it or not.
GG
If that were true wouldn't they be offering competitions to win a prize cruise to Jamaica or something?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 13:07:36
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Of which quite a number are passive members, and not in the West. And worldwide membership numbers will increase even if the proportion of religious people decreases so long as population growth is higher than the decline in people claiming membership. Numbers for membership to religious organisations are always prone to quite large errors and are often disputed, especially in countries with less than fantastic record keeping, such as the majority of South America, Africa and parts of Asia - all of which (apparently  ) boast strong RC populations.
Membership is a tricky issue - I am a member of quite a few organisations that I signed up to at one time but never actually cancelled my membership. Some of them I signed up to when I was a teenager and I have not even thought of in 10-15 years. Even through census data, people will claim membership to a religious group even if they have not attended their place of worship for years.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 13:33:04
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Even putting aside the incredibly insulting idea that my religion teaches whatever is most appealing to the lowest common denominator as if they were selling a product -- you do understand that is insulting right? I really wonder -- the idea that the Church would issue this kind of statement to 'fill the pews' is particularly moronic. Not only are there many Catholics in the US and Europe who absolutely do NOT welcome this kind of language, but there is also deep and abiding opposition to the issues (all of them, not just the part about gays) in places like Africa and South America. You know, where most Catholics live.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 13:34:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 13:55:18
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Manchu wrote:Even putting aside the incredibly insulting idea that my religion teaches whatever is most appealing to the lowest common denominator as if they were selling a product -- you do understand that is insulting right?
As insulting as suggesting that a person is going to hell, is sinful, unnatural and is not loved by their god because of who they love?
I really wonder -- the idea that the Church would issue this kind of statement to 'fill the pews' is particularly moronic.
The West is fairly socially liberal, for the most part. Coupled with declining membership (either relative or absolute), it does make sense that a religious group may make the kind of noises the Catholic Church has been making recently. You yourself have noted that you are happy with the way things are heading, as are tens of thousands of otherwise progressive Catholics, people of associated faith, and the non-affiliated. Even those who are typically not on the side of religion are "down with the new pope".
Although I was pointing out potential arguments for the argument, rather than making it myself.
From a PR point of view in the West, the RCC are getting a lot of good press for what is, at most, ( IMO), a very minor lip service to actually changing.
Not only are there many Catholics in the US and Europe who absolutely do NOT welcome this kind of language, but there is also deep and abiding opposition to the issues (all of them, not just the part about gays) in places like Africa and South America. You know, where most Catholics live.
And they will continue to carry on doing what they want to do, exactly as they have been doing, regardless of what is said. Again, as you yourself mentioned, people use religion as a tool to justify or lay blame for what has happened, while happily ignoring the part that tells them they should not have been doing the thing which caused that thing to happen.
And I believe you will recall me stating that I don't expect anything to change?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 14:12:58
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I guess first up, it really would help if you learned about the religion you are so passionate about hating. Knowledge does tend to get in the way of hatred, of course. And I'm kind of staggered by the logic of your rationalizations: something you don't know about and refuse to learn more about offends you so that makes it okay to post offensive things about it? As to all this business about PR -- did you even bother to read my post? Most Catholics live in cultures where progressive attitudes toward every single one of these issues (divorce, cohabitation, civil union, and homosexual relationships) are very unpopular. Finally, church attendance in the US and Europe has not decline because the Church has not kept up with the sea change in attitudes toward homosexuals that has occurred in the last ten years. For one thing, the decline started more than a decade ago. For another thing, such a significant change in social behavior (1950s mass attendance compared to today) cannot be explained by ahistorical reference to a single political issue. In short, this report is not going to make anyone who has stopped going to Sunday mass or who has never attended suddenly start going. But how can I be surprised that all bets are off concerning logic and reason? I mean, here's the structure of the thread so far: A: this is just lip service B: no it is not because X, Y, and Z reasons C: this is just lip service B: again, no, here are the reasons why it is not A: this is clearly just lip service
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 14:14:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 14:24:02
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Manchu wrote:Even putting aside the incredibly insulting idea that my religion teaches whatever is most appealing to the lowest common denominator as if they were selling a product -- you do understand that is insulting right? I really wonder -- the idea that the Church would issue this kind of statement to 'fill the pews' is particularly moronic. Not only are there many Catholics in the US and Europe who absolutely do NOT welcome this kind of language, but there is also deep and abiding opposition to the issues (all of them, not just the part about gays) in places like Africa and South America. You know, where most Catholics live.
I have to agree here. It's quite insulting.
But its nothing I, sadly, haven't become accustomed to, particularly from aggressive areas of atheism (and yes, I know this doesn't account for all atheists).
Automatically Appended Next Post: SilverMK2 wrote:
As insulting as suggesting that a person is going to hell, is sinful, unnatural and is not loved by their god because of who they love?
It has absolutely nothing to do with love. Never has. Never will.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 14:24:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 14:27:04
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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cincydooley wrote:As insulting as suggesting that a person is going to hell, is sinful, unnatural and is not loved by their god because of who they love?
It has absolutely nothing to do with love. Never has. Never will.
Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that homosexuals are incapable of falling in love with people of the same sex, or something else?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 14:27:30
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