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rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.

The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.

You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.

The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.

You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.

Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.

 FlingitNow wrote:

To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.

No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.

Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?

Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.

Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.

@rigeld2 Quote please.

Gravmyr wrote:
@rigeld2 Quote please.

For... ? Quoting what you're replying to, or being specific in requests, is polite.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.

The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.

You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.

Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.

LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.

If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.

The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.

You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.

Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.

LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.

If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.

OK, question then.

I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
We have rules for weapons with profiles. Can you give me rules quotes for psychic powers and resolution of them that have a profile?

We have rules for shooting attacks with profiles. Witchfires are explicitly shooting attacks.

Which rules are you using can you quote that? Now you need to have one that does not use weapon profiles just profiles as stated above.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the type is mentioned and no number follows the number is assumed to be 1, per the rules above. A shooting attack with zero shots is not a vaild option. Please show me an example of that.

The underlined is not actually in any of the rules above.
And I'd love for you to show me the profile that says Psychic Shriek is an Assault type weapon.

You can't resolve witchfire for zero shots. The notion is absurd. Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots. You are inventing a notion of shooting attacks with zero shots to get Psychic Shriek to work.

Except you can. I've shown you how. Psychic Shriek has zero shots. Any witchfire without a profile has zero shots. I'm inventing nothing, I'm showing you - RAW (that means without inventing things like a profile) - how Psychic Shriek works.
If you have to invent rules (as you have, repeatedly) it can't be a RAW standpoint.

LOL, you have to show some other example besides Psychic Shriek. You simply cannot resolve a shooting attack with zero shots. the sequence does not make sense for zero shots.

If Psychic Shriek is your only case for a zero shot shooting attack, then you have no outside support for a notion of a zero shot shooting attack, and are making up rules and justification where there is simply a missing profile.

OK, question then.

I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?

Gravmyr wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
We have rules for weapons with profiles. Can you give me rules quotes for psychic powers and resolution of them that have a profile?

We have rules for shooting attacks with profiles. Witchfires are explicitly shooting attacks.

Which rules are you using can you quote that? Now you need to have one that does not use weapon profiles just profiles as stated above.

So we know the following rules (steps 1-7) cover shooting attacks.

We know that Witchfires are explicitly shooting attacks.

Do you need more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?

Spoiler:

Gets Hot
Some weapons are fuelled by unstable power sources and risk overheating with each
shot – often to the detriment of the wielder.
When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the
firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) –
this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a
Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle
instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit.

Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question.

What weapon are you shooting?

Gravmyr wrote:
What weapon are you shooting?

That last one is the most solid - "as with other shooting weapons" means that witchfires are shooting weapons.

So please, support your argument with actual rules - that Witchfires are not weapons and that witchfires with profiles can't use the shooting rules to resolve.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.

No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.

Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?

Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.

Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.

Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
We have rules for weapons with profiles. Can you give me rules quotes for psychic powers and resolution of them that have a profile?

We have rules for shooting attacks with profiles. Witchfires are explicitly shooting attacks.

Which rules are you using can you quote that? Now you need to have one that does not use weapon profiles just profiles as stated above.

Spoiler:

Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

So we know the following rules (steps 1-7) cover shooting attacks.

Spoiler:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks.

We know that Witchfires are explicitly shooting attacks.

Do you need more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
I have a squad of Tac Marines, one with a flamer, one with a plasma cannon. They target a vehicle that is 30" away (pretty sure that is in range for a plasma cannon). The bearer rolls a 1 for Gets Hot. What happens now, since we are part way through the Shooting Attack?

Spoiler:

Gets Hot
Some weapons are fuelled by unstable power sources and risk overheating with each
shot – often to the detriment of the wielder.
When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the
firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken) –
this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a
Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle
instead rolls a D6 for each roll of a 1 to hit. On a roll of a 1, 2 or 3 it suffers a glancing hit.

Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question.

My answer is to apply the gets hot rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

To resolve it you have to add "Instead of a roll to wound . . ." so that you get past step 5 for successful hits in step 4.

No that is making rules up. As we can't resolve steps 4 or 5 what happens does the game stop or do we carry on playing? We're talking RaW here not your made up rules.

Another question that must have the SAME answer is: If I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle does the game stop because I can't resolve the -1T or do we carry on playing?

Then Psychic Shriek fizzles. Since there is missing info, it does not resolve RAW by itself. My solution is the minimal required.

Sure cast enfeeble on a vehicle. Since it doesn't have a T characteristic to modify then nothing happens. It fizzles.

Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?

It has no effect.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?

I think it's in the 4th edition Ork codex, under Weirdboy powers.

col_impact wrote:
My answer is to apply the gets hot rule.

Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My answer is to apply the gets hot rule.

Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?

You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My answer is to apply the gets hot rule.

Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?

You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?

You quoted the wrong rule. You should've quoted this (since the question was about a plasma cannon):

I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
My answer is to apply the gets hot rule.

Which then leads to a shooting attack with 0 shots. Do you agree?

You roll a 1. The Roll To Hit auto-fails. You apply the Gets Hot Rule. It does not count as a hit on your target unit. Where do you get a shooting attack with 0 shots out of that?

You quoted the wrong rule. You should've quoted this (since the question was about a plasma cannon):

Spoiler:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.

I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.

Blasts and Templates have their own rules for getting through the shooting sequence per their entries in the BRB. Psychic shriek is not a blast or template. Moreover, your example doesn't work. The shot is not fired.

rigeld2 wrote:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.

I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.

That's not a shooting attack with zero shots, that's a failed shooting attack. If it had ZERO shots you would roll no dice for get's hot.

 adamsouza wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.

I underlined the rule that makes it a Shooting Attack with zero shots.

Spoiler:

That's not a shooting attack with zero shots, that's a failed shooting attack. If it had ZERO shots you would roll no dice for get's hot.

It's a Shooting Attack. With a single shot. Agreed?
The underlined rule explicitly says the shot is not fired. Agreed?
So we have a Shooting Attack where the only shot wasn't fired. Agreed?
So it's Shooting Attack with zero shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Blasts and Templates have their own rules for getting through the shooting sequence per their entries in the BRB. Psychic shriek is not a blast or template. Moreover, your example doesn't work. The shot is not fired.

The only difference is the lack of a roll To Hit (they scatter instead).
No, Psychic Shriek isn't a Blast or Template - but that's not what you asked for. You asked for, and I'll quote, "Provide me with any example of any shooting attack that has zero shots"
Job done. Now, can you provide any actual rules supporting your argument? I mean - all I've done is post rules supporting mine and all you've done is call the idea "absurd" which, as we both know, means nothing.

You guys are going to have to prove in the rules that zero shot shooting attacks exist.

This is some fiction you are making up to avoid doing what witchfire is telling you to do.

If there are legitimate zero shot shooting attacks I am sure you can find examples. Something.

The idea of zero shot shooting attacks is absurd and a perfect example of rules lawyering at its worst.

As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.

Gravmyr wrote:
As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.

Except that's not what that rule actually says. Feel free to quote it and prove me wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
You guys are going to have to prove in the rules that zero shot shooting attacks exist.

I just did. Can you prove it wrong?

In addition - how many shots does Psychic Shriek have? Quote a rule defining that. The burden is actually on you to prove that shooting attacks must contain a number of shots.

If it's not multiple it's singular.

BRB pg 40 wrote:Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.

BRB pg 32 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we will explain in more detail later.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does psychic shriek state to fires more than one shot?

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
As you so kindly spelled out witchfire powers are weapons which then means that you use the rules in the weapon section telling you the number of shots that are fired, pg 40. Single shot.

Except that's not what that rule actually says. Feel free to quote it and prove me wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
You guys are going to have to prove in the rules that zero shot shooting attacks exist.

I just did. Can you prove it wrong?

In addition - how many shots does Psychic Shriek have? Quote a rule defining that. The burden is actually on you to prove that shooting attacks must contain a number of shots.

LOL, that's not a zero shot shooting attack. The Gets Hot aborts the shot. It does not continue on to its target.

I provided rules that indicate one is assumed unless "multiple" is specified. Further there are no weapon profiles that say "Assault 0" or "Heavy 0". If a profile says just "Heavy" then "Heavy (1)" is implied per the rules.

I am sure if zero shot shooting attacks are a thing and not some fiction you are cooking up then you should have no trouble finding a weapon profile with something like Ordinance 0.

Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?

It has no effect.

You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.

Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Where do I find RaW definition of fizzles? Please answer the question does the game stop or continue?

It has no effect.

You do know you've just agreed with my interpretation right? You've just stated that unresolvable action = no effect. Which is what we've been saying all along.

Glad you're finally on board. Your concession is accepted.

Yup, feel free to cast psychic shriek and have it do absolutely nothing.

###

rigeld2 wrote:

It's a Shooting Attack. With a single shot. Agreed?
The underlined rule explicitly says the shot is not fired. Agreed?
So we have a Shooting Attack where the only shot wasn't fired. Agreed?
So it's Shooting Attack with zero shots.

I have a gun with a single bullet.
I put it in my pocket without discharging it.
No one would call that a Zero Shot shooting attack.

I have a gun with a single bullet.
It jams while attempting to discharging it.
No one would call that a Zero Shot shooting attack.

A failed attemtp to fire indeed, but not a zero shot shooting attack.