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What time does this launch today, if that's known?

 RiTides wrote:
What time does this launch today, if that's known?

19:00 GMT

 Bacms wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
What time does this launch today, if that's known?

19:00 GMT

Just enough time to recover from the mantic Kings of war KIckstarter and get the finger ready to F5 your way to glory on this one I guess

 Bacms wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Bacms wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!

This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.

It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.

Also, I don't see any arguments

Well it is baseless speculation when people start complaining that SG are lying until they release information saying one way or another. I have seen you doing this several times but I don't want to go down that route.

The 'lying' comments were about prior to this rebooted Kickstarter, and they've since pretty much outright admitted it anyway. Hard to argue with 'we've made our minis smaller' and showing them as the size the previously claimed they were. That means they lied the first time around, just like I suggested they were.

However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifiying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bacms wrote:

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
If we didnt have artemis who else would folk pick on. Takes the pressure off the rest of our "negative" comments.

If there is one race thats not doing it for me its the Harversters. Although one of the back stories from a commander unit (I think) appealed to me.

Definately though Riff first then Sayx.. Hopefully a pledge for figures only would be good.

True although I still think you should state on this thread as soon as possible that is a manager of another miniature company which are planning to launch a KS very soon. But anyway back to the game.

We're not, that would be a lie by someone in an FF Supporters group. We have been planning a KS publically for about a year now but it's not for a sci-fi game, it's not for 40mm miniatures and it's not happening soon, not even in the next 6 months I would guess.

The fact that I'm a manager of a miniaturescompany is well known, it's literally written everywhere I use this name and in the last FF thread people were openly asking me to contribute to the company thread elsewhere on Dakka, it's not a secret to be revealed like an old Sherlock Holmes mystery.

I feel you have gathered your information fom the wrong sources

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Bacms wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Bacms wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!

This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.

It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.

Also, I don't see any arguments

Well it is baseless speculation when people start complaining that SG are lying until they release information saying one way or another. I have seen you doing this several times but I don't want to go down that route.

The 'lying' comments were about prior to this rebooted Kickstarter, and they've since pretty much outright admitted it anyway. Hard to argue with 'we've made our minis smaller' and showing them as the size the previously claimed they were. That means they lied the first time around, just like I suggested they were.

However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifiying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.

Do you have any proof that the minis they would have shipped to the backers were not the scale they said it would be? Also your continuation of using 35mm and keep saying it is a lie does not help with clarity.
They never said their scale was 35mm if you check their previous KS page it is there pretty explicity stated:
"At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standard among brands selling kits of 54 or 75mm."

As someone who works on the miniature world you should know better than anyone what scale means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(ratio)
It is also funny that you said you would stop the complains about the scale as soon as they would post a photo with a model and a ruler next to it. But as soon as that was done you simply found more and more problems. Hopefully you will behave this time and stop sending messages to convince people to drop their pledges or even worst insult the ones who do things to support Fallen Frontiers.

 Bacms wrote:

Do you have any proof that the minis they would have shipped to the backers were not the scale they said it would be? Also your continuation of using 35mm and keep saying it is a lie does not help with clarity.

Why would I need proof of that, I never stated otherwise. I have no idea what people would get in the end, they could have gotten 35mm minis or 95mm minis for all I know, as it wasn't relevant to my complaint it wasn't brought up.
In the 'last' kickstarter they claimed that the minis they were showing were 35mm, repeatedly. That his since turned out to not be true. This is just a fact. I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but thats not really my problem.

 Bacms wrote:
They never said their scale was 35mm if you check their previous KS page it is there pretty explicity stated:
"At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standard among brands selling kits of 54 or 75mm."

That's what their KS page ended at, it is not what it stated before and during the first days of the KS. Again, this was all fairly well documented in the previous thread.

 Bacms wrote:
As someone who works on the miniature world you should know better than anyone what scale means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(ratio)
It is also funny that you said you would stop the complains about the scale as soon as they would post a photo with a model and a ruler next to it. But as soon as that was done you simply found more and more problems. Hopefully you will behave this time and stop sending messages to convince people to drop their pledges or even worst insult the ones who do things to support Fallen Frontiers.

As someone who works in the miniatures world I am very aware of the necessity to make your 'scale' or miniatures sizes transparent and answer any questions about such succinctly and correctly.

I also did not state what you claimed, I am unlikely to stop asking them to call a miniature 35mm because they posted a photo of a 'completely different miniature' that is 35mm to the eyes only and then stated that the one I have always meant was in fact taller. I have no need to ask them any more how big the other minis were because they have openly admitted they were larger and therefore not 35mm in any way i.e. I, and plenty of others, were correct and that they won't be using them in the new kickstarter anyway.

And, of course, I have not sent anyone any messages trying to get them to drop their pledges, another lie. You seem to be racking them up so far.

If you would like this KS to succeed it's probably best not to fill up threads about it with lies and implied insults about other users who are talking about it. As can be seen from the last kickstarter 'and' the closed thread here it simply doesn't work that way. I have asked fairly basic questions about it and my comments about this reboot have been considerably more positive than last time 'because' they have been more upfront with answers. Not as upfront as I personally would like but nothing like last time where they seemed to have 8 different answers for every question. Conversely their supporters, like yourself, have been overwhelmingly negative towards anyone asking such questions. Guess which one does more damage to a product?

Okay, I'm going to be reining in this thread. I will leave the above posts because I had not yet posted this warning, but from here on out:

If you want to see all the discussion associated with the last thread, please simply go read that thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/597844.page

We will not be rehashing all of that discussion here. In this thread, please limit discussion to the current campaign. Accusations of lying, or otherwise "stirring up" people in this thread, will simply not be tolerated. Posts of this nature will be edited or deleted. Every company deserves the right to stand or fall on its own merits, and this thread will be for discussing the current campaign only.

If you want to have more general discussions about the company, or general business practices in the miniatures industry, etc please start a separate thread in Dakka Discussions.

I think this note should be very clear, but PM me with any questions... and this will be enforced in this thread from this point forward.

 Artemis Black wrote:
personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.

Just out of curiosity, may i ask why?

At this point, it is probably best to wait the remaining 2 hours until the reboot launches so we can actually see what this campaign will offer, and how it will be presented.

If you can't wait, the previously linked to closed thread has a lot of that detail in it - but again, it is about the canceled Kickstarter and what's in there may or may not hold true here.

Point taken. Looking forward to see what they have in store for this new KS. Are we there yet?

 OnePageAnon wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.

Just out of curiosity, may i ask why?

I'll answer this succinctly due to the big red warning above you, longer discussion can be found in the previous thread.

So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.

This is not just a negative either. It will avoid disgruntled customers. Painters don't care so much about size so that group is fine, but gamers have scenery to use and other minis they may want to match with. Being as clear as possible is always best for your own product.

So far we've only seen the two ruler shots, the above complaint may fade into obscurity if the campaign launch sees a bunch more etc. Couple hours to go yet

 Artemis Black wrote:
I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest.

I am pretty sure they confirmed that 2 out of 4 races are 35mm to the eye, namely the sayx and the harvesters. I also find it very strange that you "wouldn't describe a games scale to the eyes", when that is the de facto standard in the wargaming industry.

There is actually a very good reason why miniatures are measured from the sole to the eyes; from wikipedia: "Often known as "to-the-eye" scale, this method of measurement allows wargamers to judge the comparative height of a miniature without having to estimate the actual height of the head which is usually often covered in some sort of military headgear.".

You can read more on this subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_%28gaming%29#To-The-Eye_Measurements_and_Scales.

Let's not fall into that discussion again. But yes measurements to the eye are pretty standard and even Artemis company uses it: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=hayden-%28b%29-%28resin%29~hfd028b&category=miniatures~%2Aresin-figures%2A

Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.

 OnePageAnon wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest.

I am pretty sure they confirmed that 2 out of 4 races are 35mm to the eye, namely the sayx and the harvesters. I also find it very strange that you "wouldn't describe a games scale to the eyes", when that is the de facto standard in the wargaming industry.

There is actually a very good reason why miniatures are measured from the sole to the eyes; from wikipedia: "Often known as "to-the-eye" scale, this method of measurement allows wargamers to judge the comparative height of a miniature without having to estimate the actual height of the head which is usually often covered in some sort of military headgear.".

You can read more on this subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_%28gaming%29#To-The-Eye_Measurements_and_Scales.

I wouldn't because it's not the defacto standard, especially not in the modern industry, there hasn't been a defacto standard in years. Normally miniature companies who sell larger minis use to the eyes and miniature companies who sell smaller minis use the actual height. There's obviously a marketing reason for that Generally though everyone who uses the mythical '28mm scale' or '30mm scale' or something similar can be mixed. When someone uses 35mm, in my opinion, they are trying to slide into the top end of that group as if someone asks you how tall a Space Marine miniature is the answer you, or most people, would give is 33mm. That''s very close to 35mm and you might think they'd look similar to one another, but of course this game starts at 38mm and climbs from there, which is not close at all. Hence I wouldn't ever call it a 35mm game, I'd have to continuously add 'to the eyes' to avoid confusion and point out 'but this race are 40/45/whatever. use a 40mm tag and the majority of that confusion goes away. The Sayx (and possible Harvesters) are close enough to count, the other races are already that and peopel know they won't mix with their existing GW/Infinity/Etc. minis and that they may need bigger scenery.

I can also tell you that in 20 years no customer has ever asked me what height a mini is to the eyes, they always ask how tall. Which in the English language means to the top of your head. That's what I always give them and never once have I received a complaint saying I had given them an incorrect measurement.

As for the Harvester, yes they have said they will be scaled the same as the Sayx which is why I went out of my way to point out we haven't seen one yet. If we do see one and it measures 35mm to the eyes then yes, 2 of the 4 races will be that, the other 2 will be still be 40-50mm. Considering the massive amounts of random information given previously, and an incorrect scale comparison photo given this time around (the red Ares pic) I wasn't prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. Others might as is their prerogative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bacms wrote:
Let's not fall into that discussion again. But yes measurements to the eye are pretty standard and even Artemis company uses it: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=hayden-%28b%29-%28resin%29~hfd028b&category=miniatures~%2Aresin-figures%2A

We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.

 Bacms wrote:
Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.

We have seen the newer Ares powersuit next to a ruler, so I'm afraid that's incorrect.

 Artemis Black wrote:

So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.

You seem to be the only one making this particular complaint.

I thought it pretty obvious (and normal) why they used those figures: They are the base human (essentially). I don't believe I've ever seen any other wargame company (including Hasslefree) use a figure other than an human as their baseline.

I find it odd that you find it odd...

The other misinformation (intentional or not) was an issue though.

Looking forward to the campaign start.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.

You seem to be the only one making this particular complaint.

I thought it pretty obvious (and normal) why they used those figures: They are the base human (essentially). I don't believe I've ever seen any other wargame company (including Hasslefree) use a figure other than an human as their baseline.

I find it odd that you find it odd...

The other misinformation (intentional or not) was an issue though.

Looking forward to the campaign start.

~Eric

(I am currently the only one making this complaint in this thread, I may not be after the launch but last time around you can see for yourself elsewhere that I was far from it).

I guess my issue with this particular one is that in most games the Humans aren't the short people. In most wargames humans 'are' the defualt race and multiple other races are the same height with very few being obviously taller. It's hardly a major complaint, I was specifically asked why I would't call them 35mm and that's why. It's pushing it if all the races were the same height as the Sayx but when 50% of yoru core box set is 40mm or taller (Those Riff Berserkers seem like theyd' be closer to 50mm if they stood up) it's odd to not only call your game the shorter of the races but also make it seem even smaler by using a 'to the eyes' measurement. If I was a passing customer who didn't do a lot of research and just saw '35mm game' I don't think I'd be too stupid to assume they may match ok with companies like Infinity or GW where minis are regularly 33mm+ 'tall'.

Whether or not these minis will match with minis and scenery you may already own is obviously an issue that will matter to a lot of potential pledgers, mostly gamers. Putting the most clear information possible about the size out there is therefore advantageous. I seem to have drawn ire from some cheerleaders for what, to me, seems like pretty solid business advice.

 Artemis Black wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bacms wrote:
Let's not fall into that discussion again. But yes measurements to the eye are pretty standard and even Artemis company uses it: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=hayden-%28b%29-%28resin%29~hfd028b&category=miniatures~%2Aresin-figures%2A

We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.

In that case you may need to change a few more as for example this one or his one which does not have any type of special hair

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Bacms wrote:
Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.

We have seen the newer Ares powersuit next to a ruler, so I'm afraid that's incorrect.

Sorry somehow I missed that one as I don't remember seeing it on the official page I stand corrected in that case.

 Bacms wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bacms wrote:
Let's not fall into that discussion again. But yes measurements to the eye are pretty standard and even Artemis company uses it: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=hayden-%28b%29-%28resin%29~hfd028b&category=miniatures~%2Aresin-figures%2A

We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.

In that case you may need to change a few more as for example this one or his one which does not have any type of special hair

Ta, I will. As stated above though, they go quite clearly out of their way to make sure that the customer understands it is 'to the eye'. You may find more, if you wanna go through the whole site and save me a job you are more than welcome Probably just PM me though.

I'm not piling on, just so I'm clear. You seem like a solid guy in all of the conversations I've read with you in them.

I honestly can't think of any other game where the humans are the shortarses, so I don't have that example to give you. Humans, as a rule are extremely ego-centric. Using an human as a reference point, even in a game with more races who are taller, just makes sense to me. Guess that's where the disconnect is.

I know that you were far from the only one with issues about scale. I meant I don't recall seeing anyone else taking issue with using an human as the baseline for measurement.

Hope that makes what I'm saying clearer.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:
I'm not piling on, just so I'm clear. You seem like a solid guy in all of the conversations I've read with you in them.

I honestly can't think of any other game where the humans are the shortarses, so I don't have that example to give you. Humans, as a rule are extremely ego-centric. Using an human as a reference point, even in a game with more races who are taller, just makes sense to me. Guess that's where the disconnect is.

I know that you were far from the only one with issues about scale. I meant I don't recall seeing anyone else taking issue with using an human as the baseline for measurement.

Hope that makes what I'm saying clearer.

~Eric

No, it's fine. I even agree, it's tough to think of a game where humans weren't either the average race or at least taller than the other races (dwarf/goblin/halflings etc). So they had that as a problem to start with. The dual problem is that as well as humans being short they have gone for the shorter of the two methods of measuring thus making the (my?) problem doubly pronounced.

Seeing as some of my less-than-fans keep bringing up that I work for a company, here's an example using it. If someone asked us how tall our recent sci-fi troopers were I would answer them, accurately, '34mm' I 'might' say '34mm to the top of their helmet' if I was feeling particularly wordy. So now the they have that and they check out this new kickstarter with Sci-Fi troops they like, think they might get some Riff or whatever to fight our troopers and see that the game is '35mm scale'. When they actually get the Riff they would make our miniatures look like midgets and one of our companies is getting a return. Did either of us lie, no, not really, but 'm comfortable with saying that it wouldn't have been me who was the misleading one nor is it likely I'd get a complaint if the customer was the kind to make one.

This obviously applies to GW with their 33mm Space marines and Inifnity and Privateer and any other company from our scale range. FF are not in our scale range, at all. If they don't make that clear then, to me, it's notonly just daft but misleading enough to cause problems down the line.

Can we all then just agree that the best way to avoid confusion with the scale is to say to people that ScaleGames is using the Scale O where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot. And as such as far we know the human race is 35mm to the eye and 38mm to the top while Are is 40mm tall. As for the other two races we haven't received any information about the total height.

 Bacms wrote:
Can we all then just agree that the best way to avoid confusion with the scale is to say to people that ScaleGames is using the Scale O where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot. And as such as far we know the human race is 35mm to the eye and 38mm to the top while Are is 40mm tall. As for the other two races we haven't received any information about the total height.

That's the (rather stupid) information from last Kickstarter. If 7mm was 1ft then you just said that the Human race averages 5ft to the eye if the figures are 35mm to the eye.

They have since said this new KS will use 'american O scale', or 1:48. That is indeed ~35mm to the eye or 38mm tall for an average human.

And the problem with it is that the average gamer doesn't use scale modelling scales, they use 'mm'. And I have no problem at all with them describing their Sayx as 35mm to the ey, it's quite correct. We'll see what the FAQ on the new KS says in a little while.

It's live!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/298260359/fallen-frontiers-reboot?ref=nav_search

Should this have started by now?

Ah, there we go...

No minis-only pledge means I'm likely not to jump in on an early bird, but I'll be keeping an eye on it in case they add one later.

 RiTides wrote:
No minis-only pledge means I'm likely not to jump in on an early bird, but I'll be keeping an eye on it in case they add one later.

Dude if you want either the Riff or the Ares I would grab that gak in a heartbeat.

$100 is only ~£64 for 34 minis that are 40mm, resin andmultipart. You also get the rulebook, cards, card scenery, dice and some other doodads.

Removing the money for the rulebook and extras that's like £1.50 a miniature. That seems like insane pricing to me, grab it now!

Starter set looks like a great deal. The higher level pledges were better value for money last kickstarter, however I guess a lot of the details weren't finalised. Torn between 290 and extras, or going nuts.

I just did. Actually just jumped in and picked the first pledge as I was doing it from my Phone.

I'm in!

Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?

Id pledge for just the PDF game mats. As nice as it looks, I got Deadzone and Infinity. Dont need another minis game, but id throw money at the PDFs