How do you, personally, feel about the use of FW units in tabletop?

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**Rysaer**

I have no issue with them, I'd say I'm somewhere between Good and Indifferent.

It's more the LoW stuff that bothers me in 40k these days than anything else.

As for FW itself, the only ones I'm wary of are units still under 'Experimental' rules, I wouldn't refuse to play against them etc, I'd just like to be clear on what they are before we start.

I met with one of the R'Varna (probably wrong spelling) Riptides while playing against a friends Tau, I spent the early stages of the game thinking it was a normal riptide until it came into range, then he revealed what it was and presented the experimental rules (at that time.). I wasn't annoyed with it being experimental per say but I was quite miffed he hadn't even explained that it wasn't a standard riptide (even though the model was a standard riptide.).

**NauticalKendall**

koooaei wrote:
I don't mind FW itself. But 2 out of 2 people i've played using forgeworld have been rather TFG.

For example, 1 guy fielded a renegade artillery list with some super-heavy plasma-tank and a void-shield generator (stronghold assault, i guess) against my orks. I asked him to explain how his stuff works as i don't own neither stronghold assault, nor don't know the rules for renegades and he told me void-shields are av12 4 hp for units within 12' radius. I asked: "Any units?" And he told: "Yes, any units".

During deployment he placed a large fortress partially in ruins and partially in the woods even though it's against the rules - and deployed all his artillery behind it. I thought - no big deal, it's a friendly game after all.

Than the game went on and i rushed towards the void shields and happened to have a few units underneath it. Than he shot and i claimed av12 from void shields. He told me it ain't working like this. But i've asked him to read the rules for me 'out of the book' as i've come to a conclusion that void shields work on any unit underneath it based on what he had told me. He got pissed off and claimed it's complete nonscence and started bitching about it. In the meanwhile i've googled bout the void shields and found a discussion here on dakka where people also claimed void shields work on any model friend or foe. The guy went hulk and told me that everyone's stupid and that i should have my own books and so on. Got to end the game turn 2.

Another guy Fielded 2 riptides list in a 1250 casual match - i've specifically stated beforehand it's gona be an extremely casual fluffy game. 1 was a forgeworld riptide with experimental rules - the one with 2 blasts which he told were ap3. He backed them up with tetras, a buffmander he joined to a riptide (6-th edition) and got a crysis suit team + a min squad of firewarriors and a min squad of vespids (to go extremely casual, i guess). My list was: Tzeench Apostle with gift, Tzeench footslogging sorc with gift, 2 large units of cultists, 2 squads of 10 possessed with 2 gifts each and a squad of 1000 sons with gift in a rhino.

Apostle rolled crussader, possessed champ rolled shrowded, others rolled useless stuff. Sorc got endurance. So, i've joined up apostle, sorc and possessed with shrowded, buffed them with endurance and launched them on one flank. Second possessed squad rushed the other flank. He bunched up and poured fire. Eventually, he killed off everything but a squad of cultists that were hiding behind blos with a relic. And he started bitching about...basically everything. About how i roll invulnerable and fnp saves. About how daemon possessed are broken (!), about how sorc with force weapons and endurance is broken and so on, and so forth.

So, it's probably anecdotal evidence but i don't want to play against fw guyz anymore

Well that first bit I can certainly say that guy is definitely TFG.

But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Every novel(The Patient hunter details 3+ hunting lemon russes from the perspective of one, one of the stories in the Damocles Anthology features 2 or more ambushing White Scars)or background piece(R'Varnas FW description states 3 held off a hive fleet on their own) that involves the Riptide details how they travel in groups of two or more, or a cohort of crisis suits like the Apoc fortmation. So... Unfortunately for people who have a hard time with Riptides, R'Varnas, Y'vahras.

That's right, TripTide is fluffy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I actively encourage FW in my area. I love the models and it just adds to the fun. Just don't be a jerk about your list and I'm happy, but that could be without forgeworld too!

**The Imperial Answer**

NauticalKendall wrote:
That's right, TripTide is fluffy.

For a unit whose codex profile mentions production of it is slow due to scarcity of resources, the riptide and variants sure seem to show up a lot in the lore.

**LordBlades**

The Imperial Answer wrote:
NauticalKendall wrote:
That's right, TripTide is fluffy.

For a unit whose codex profile mentions production of it is slow due to scarcity of resources, the riptide and variants sure seem to show up a lot in the lore.

So do space marines. Whole chapters of them even though there's supposedly less of them than there are planets in the Imperium.

If you have a few elite units you don't spread them thin to the point each is a drop in the ocean. You concentrate them where they can make an impact. And it's these times and places most of the lore is about.

**Disciple of Fate**

I own some FW stuff and IA13 for my CSM+IG. So Im ok with FW being used, it already was used way before I got some FW stuff. But my local GW is against its use and so are some/slight majority of players.

The amount of LoW's in the form of Knights used that are acceptable just boggles my mind if almost all FW is not.

**Xenomancers**

I prefer not to pay 2-3x more for the same units and ship from the UK. Though I most certainly will be buying a forge world Avatar just because it's BA. However it's going to use the standard rules for an Avatar. I'm totally okay with people using FW in an Apocalypse game - or including 1 model as a super heavy or something in a friendly. When you start running predator variants and land raider variants that are obviously better than the ones I'm using from a legit codex it gets pretty annoying. I guess I should have answered indifferent because I'm not against their use in friendly games. I really think they should be excluded from all competitive environments.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Arun wrote:
Okay so to clarify things I do not play pickup games.

As for my friends circle:

Given the open ended mess that 7th edition is, when wanting to play a battle we usually clarify things the following way:

1 FoC for main army (no need to tell what army youre bringing)
upto 1 allied detachment (no need to tell which allies youre bringing)
FW units only after telling the opponent what you'll be bringing and if he is ok with it
Formations: the amount of formations you will be bringing should be disclosed prior to the battle

These are pretty standard rules to go by and they work. They give people who make TAC list a chance to build appropriately and it makes the game more fun for everyone. Ahead of time if someone wants to use a titan or something OP I'll just mention that I have a war-hound titan and usually they say nah....lets just play a standard game.

**morgoth**

ForgeWorld is fine.

I played against a HH army once though, and I must say I was surprised by the kind of stuff they have access to.

Like, the whole army had infiltrate and something else, it looked like the kind of ability I'd kill a few people for.

**gwarsh41**

I own a decent chunk of FW stuff, as the editions have moved forward and new books come out, a lot has balanced itself out. Some units are just not what they used to be, while others shine a bit more. None of them are auto take anymore though.

**Melcavuk**

I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.

So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.

**Xenomancers**

If your argument is is FW is okay because wave serpents you have lost this argument.

**Blacksails**

Xenomancers wrote:
If your argument is is FW is okay because wave serpents you have lost this argument.

If your argument is FW is bad because there are some balance issues in FW products, then you've lost this argument.

**morgoth**

Melcavuk wrote:
I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.

So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.

Well.

One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.

Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.

Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.

Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.

**Melcavuk**

morgoth wrote:
Melcavuk wrote:
I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.

So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.

Well.

One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.

Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.

Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.

Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.

Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.

**Kangodo**

Melcavuk wrote:
Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.

I had that too at the start.
Until people actually read the FW units for Necrons, which are funny but 'meh'.
The only thing they found really strong was the Sentry Pylon, until they heard how much points I had to pay for those.

**morgoth**

Melcavuk wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Melcavuk wrote:
I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.

So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.

Well.

One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.

Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.

Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.

Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.

Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.

Wrong. There's a thick line between the worst of 40K and the worst of FW. There is stuff in FW that makes WaveSerpents, Riptides and WraithKnights look like banshees.

**Kangodo**

Name them.

**Vaktathi**

Xenomancers wrote:
If your argument is is FW is okay because wave serpents you have lost this argument.

The number of overcapable things from FW is far fewer than the number of overcapable stuff from GW, and by far the most abuseable things in the game are from GW, not FW. FW is not going to harm balance.

Besides, when you can take allies, multiple detachments, and formations (especially formations involving things like flying FMC's with objective secured jump infantry and recycling units), etc, Forgeworld is the least of your balance worries for any sort of competitive environment.

morgoth wrote:

Wrong. There's a thick line between the worst of 40K and the worst of FW. There is stuff in FW that makes WaveSerpents, Riptides and WraithKnights look like banshees.

Such as?

**Fafnir13**

I ask for details first. If it doesn't seem like too much of a cornucopia of unkillable special rules and fire power, I'm all for it. A lot of forge world stuff is just new and different, but there are some nasty/annoying ones out there.

**morgoth**

Such as....

Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.

Sicaran Battle Tank. The one tank to rule them all. It makes Wave Serpents look like a piece of crap.

Eldar Hornet. For 80 points you get AV11, Scout, Acute Senses, 24" flat out, dual pulse lasers and snap fire after flat out. It was wildly overcosted in the previous edition, and FW did the usual thing, they twisted the knobs a bit too hard.

In a previous edition: Eldar Lynx, for 320 points you could get a Pulsar and 6HP on Eldar Titan HoloFields.

Cerastus Knight Lancer: because IK aren't good enough yet despite their 62% win rate, here's a model you can't even dodge. Die already heretic scum. The emperor demands it.

**Melcavuk**

Void Shield Generator was GW, not FW.

Sicarian? 135 points, infernal relic so my chaos can only take one unless I take specific HQ's, not exactly world shattering with 6 rending shots that ignore Jink, hard counter to skimmers maybe but still.

Havent touched eldar FW nor have the books to hand to comment.

The lancer is a beast, but its a 400 point beast and can be countered.

**Sir Arun**

Transcendant C'tan, anyone?

**morgoth**

Melcavuk wrote:
Void Shield Generator was GW, not FW.

Sicarian? 135 points, infernal relic so my chaos can only take one unless I take specific HQ's, not exactly world shattering with 6 rending shots that ignore Jink, hard counter to skimmers maybe but still.

Havent touched eldar FW nor have the books to hand to comment.

The lancer is a beast, but its a 400 point beast and can be countered.

Still way better than anything GW.

135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.

And the Void Shield Gen is Stronghold/Apoc/FW territory tbh - even though that's now part of the standard GW line.

**MajorStoffer**

I play the Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade.

I think I've won about 15% of my games.

FW tends to give their army lists specific mechanics, which if built around can do well while also being fluffy. While I rarely win with my Korps, as my club has become uber-competitive, and standard guardsmen with tank and arty support simply can't compete, but I'm rarely stomped, and my victories are always narrow. No one bats an eye at them these days, and I use a superheavy as a standard part of my army, the Macharius battle tank.

FW makes some specifically powerful units, but their actual armies, played as a whole are rarely particularly strong versus GW prime offerings. Yes, the Sicaran is very good, as are Contemptor Dreadnoughts and Thudd Guns, but they all have codex equivalents which are equitable or better, and merely serve another niche and represent an unknown to players who, in my experience, thrive on knowing their opponent's list enough to play against it from memory, or will tailor against it. With casual or fluff players, no one has ever reacted poorly to even some of the more powerful FW units, like the Land Raider Achilles.

One thing that I think also helps is that people who fork over the cash for FW tend to lovingly paint them, and in my opinion, someone who clearly cares about their army beyond just smashing face, even if their list does smash face, I'm much less likely to be annoyed by them. Bare grey Eldar lists or 3 colour minimum/commission painted flavour of the month lists, now those get my ire up, FW or not.

FW is just one facet of GW, whom I'd say is on the whole better at producing reasonably balanced and fluffy rules within such a bloated mess as 40k's ruleset, but FW/GW is not the issue, in my opnion, that one should focus on, and rather if someone's a cheesy git abusing the best rules or combinations they can find.

**Vaktathi**

morgoth wrote:
Such as....

Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.

Not a Forgeworld unit.

Sicaran Battle Tank. The one tank to rule them all. It makes Wave Serpents look like a piece of crap.

The one that, before any upgrades, costs as much as a kitted wave serpent or a Trilas predator, is a tracked tank with no Jink capability, has a shorter range than a Wave Serpent with its S7 weapon, has no transport capacity, doesn't have a shield that downgrades Pen's to Glances on a 2+, and only ignores Jink saves with its S7 shots and not all cover? The one that needs specific, typically sub-optimal, HQ choices to be able to take more than 1 in an army?

Eldar Hornet. For 80 points you get AV11, Scout, Acute Senses, 24" flat out, dual pulse lasers and snap fire after flat out. It was wildly overcosted in the previous edition, and FW did the usual thing, they twisted the knobs a bit too hard.

AV11 and 2 hull points. It might be a little cheap, I'd have knocked Acute Senses off, but hardly a paragon of overpowered insanity. If it wants to live, it's only ever going to be snap-firing.

In a previous edition: Eldar Lynx, for 320 points you could get a Pulsar and 6HP on Eldar Titan HoloFields.

Back in 5th edition, 4 years ago, when it wasn't something you could take in a normal game but rather only Apocalypse, and was hardly anything near the paragon of broken Apocalypse things even then.

Cerastus Knight Lancer: because IK aren't good enough yet despite their 62% win rate, here's a model you can't even dodge. Die already heretic scum. The emperor demands it.

A variant that costs notably more than the others, is limited in the numbers you can take, and has far shorter ranged, and lower strength, firepower than the other variants?

morgoth wrote:

135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.

How is it *not*? Wave Serpent can put out similar strength firepower, at longer ranges, with a similar number of shots (sometimes less, sometimes more), and typically twin linked (with ubiquitous scatterlaser), and ignore *all* cover with the shield cannon (not just the Jink portion), and it's a dedicated transport, not a heavy support unit.

**Melcavuk**

I was of the understanding that the void shield generator appeared in Stronghold Assault (GW) and was made by GW, without any forgeworld interference there?

Sicarian is 6 Str 7 shots (twinlinked) with rending that ignore jink, so yeah they hit on average with 5 but lets assume all 6, I dont know what the front armour of a waveserpent is but I'd assume 12, so one pen and one glance. The pen cant blow it up because of the mighty AP of 4. 3 Hull points so on average 2 turns of solid shooting the wave serpent to kill it. I'm really struggling to see how this 135 point non-transport tank taking 1/3 the game to destroy a 130 point dedicated transport is OP.

**Kangodo**

What the hell is wrong with the Sicaran Battle Tank?
And yes, the Void Shield Generator is a GW model with GW rules.

Sir Arun wrote:
Transcendant C'tan, anyone?

Just like this one, GW-model with GW-rules.

No wonder people think FW is overpowered when they think all the OP Games Workshop stuff is from them

**The Imperial Answer**

Whats wrong with the Transcendent C'tan again ?

**Frozen Ocean**

NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?

morgoth wrote:
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.

Actually, it is. Meanwhile, "ignores jink" does not mean all skimmers immediately explode if they take a turn on the same table as the Sicarian.

morgoth wrote:And the Void Shield Gen is Stronghold/Apoc/FW territory tbh - even though that's now part of the standard GW line.

Stronghold Assault, and consequently the Void Shield Generator, was GW from the beginning. It's also not really that impressive.

**AnomanderRake**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?

"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.

morgoth wrote:
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.

Actually, it is. Meanwhile, "ignores jink" does not mean all skimmers immediately explode if they take a turn on the same table as the Sicarian.

The expected value of a round of shooting from a Sicarian against an AV12 vehicle is about 1.75 hull points. Good, particularly brutal against AV10 skimmers (averaging 3.5 hull points there), but it doesn't invalidate anything.

**Blacksails**

Just remember who you're debating the relative strength of Wave Serpents vs. Sicarans with.

That being said, Morgoth's examples are woefully lacking, both in quality of the examples, and quantity of examples.

To that end, I think we can all soundly agree (except Morgoth) that FW products are no more overpowered than core GW studio stuff.