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sturguard wrote:


Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?

How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.


Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

Yes, the costing of the units makes all the difference in the world. Wraithknights are great because they are 240 points. If they get D weapons, but now cost 400+ points -- to bring them to the points level of Imperial Knights, who have cc D -- that's a whole other ball of wax.

Wraithguard are great because they are killy 160 points. Bump that to 260 points, and you just have units like terminators: every loss is too costly.

The bikes with Shuriken Cannons (or scatter lasers) look pretty solid, though.

In an ideal world, Eldar units would be the best in the game **but also the most expensive**

And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

Pretty sure you're on the wrong forum to make this point :p

For what it's worth I totally agree with you. 40k will always have broken combos, people are just getting even more upset this time because so many get upset about the wave serpent spam. Best thing to do is do your best to find a decent group of people who don't build WAAC lists and just get together to enjoy the game.

Looking at the list of options something struck me: I don’t see any units that have been dropped. There was some fear of the finecast only things being cut. But it looks like everyone is present and accounted for.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

But what you've been trying to do is make us believe this crap is somehow balanced. Which is laughable.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Pray tell how anyone could have wished for this?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

 Talys wrote:


Yes, the costing of the units makes all the difference in the world. Wraithknights are great because they are 240 points. If they get D weapons, but now cost 400+ points -- to bring them to the points level of Imperial Knights, who have cc D -- that's a whole other ball of wax.

You can't see the difference between an Imperial Knight--which has, as you pointed out a D strength CCW--and a Wraithknight, which is now a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature, with the ability to take twin ranged D weapons?

Or the fact that if you look, again, at the FOC I reposted you can fill up your Auxiliary slots(which you get something like 1-13 unlocked for every Guardian Battlehost you field) with lone Wraithknights OR a formation which includes a Wraithknight, 3 units of Wraithguard/Wraithblades, a Spiritseer, and a Wraithlord?

Wraithguard are great because they are killy 160 points. Bump that to 260 points, and you just have units like terminators: every loss is too costly.

The difference is that Terminators aren't in an army that can be Allied with open topped transports to start hosing templates out of them...

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Pray tell how anyone could have wished for this?

No no, they wished for a new Eldar book where they would be nerfed. GW answered your prayers with this....

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They have that three squads of Dire Avengers still. We can have Jetbike Spam and Serpent Spam and Wraithknights all in one list.

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

There are a ton of weapons that are far more impressive in the lore than Distortion weapons yet they aren't D-weaponry.

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

But since when did gw at all care about the fluff being represented in the game? Bolters are supposedly these mini rocket launchers that explode when they hit the target, or penetrate it. Yep s4 ap5 sounds good. Lol

Chad Warden wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:
Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

They completely removed demonic instability. that is huge bud.

They kept the same profiles and points costs and changed a few (very significant)special rules

The point being, if CSM are coming soon they will be exactly the same weapons, profiles and points costs as Daemonikin (so mediocre and nothing like on the power level of new Eldar).

Sadly, I agree with you. The Khorne book is cool and makes for a fun game, but in terms of competitive play, it's maybe mid tier. Maybe.

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They just wanted the Eldar players who have been beating their arses to be on the losing side for a change.

I could dig up some quotes from a few months ago, when I wrote here that the Eldar might not even be nerfed. I said that they might even get buffed. The replies I got were "Why on earth would GW buff something that's already overpowered". You guys have your answer now.

 Therion wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They just wanted the Eldar players who have been beating their arses to be on the losing side for a change.

I could dig up some quotes from a few months ago, when I wrote here that the Eldar might not even be nerfed. I said that they might even get buffed. The replies I got were "Why on earth would GW buff something that's already overpowered". You guys have your answer now.

LOL I was saying the same thing to some local players at a tournament a few weeks ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

I am not arguing that. I guess they figure they will sell players one Deathstrike kit vs many Wraithguard/Knight kits.

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Wraithknights are almost certainly LOW.

At current prices, I came up with this:

40 Jetbikes is 1080
7 Vauls with D is 385
WraithKnight is 240
Jetseer is 115
1820.

8 long range Ds and 160 S6 AP6 with 6 Ob Sec units and some psychic. How are you living past turn 2?

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Would probably do 6x5 Jetbikes and 2 Wraithknights, they surely must go up in cost. Farseers mandatory because Daemons just can't have a 2++ re-rollable, which is probably one of the best counters to mass S6 AND D weapons.

If there is any sense left in GW the Knight must cost more with the D/Gargantuan buffs.

 pretre wrote:
Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take up to 360 in a single Craftworld Warhost detachment by taking 12 Aspect Host formations, actually.

I have serious doubts that if the Wraithknight becomes LoW GMC, he'll remain at 240. Dunno what they'll put him at, but that seems a bit cheap for something like that.

 Redemption wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take up to 360 in a single Craftworld Warhost detachment by taking 12 Aspect Host formations, actually.

True. Although why you would when you can get Bikes instead...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
I have serious doubts that if the Wraithknight becomes LoW GMC, he'll remain at 240. Dunno what they'll put him at, but that seems a bit cheap for something like that.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even without the knight though, just take 40 jetbikes, a seer and as many Vaul's Batteries as you can fit.

You win.

Nocturnus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

I am not arguing that. I guess they figure they will sell players one Deathstrike kit vs many Wraithguard/Knight kits.

Prior to this new Codex, you could take the same number of Deathstrikes as Wraithknights.

Both were Heavy Support, and one choice per slot, meaning that a CAD could take 3.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Would probably do 6x5 Jetbikes and 2 Wraithknights, they surely must go up in cost. Farseers mandatory because Daemons just can't have a 2++ re-rollable, which is probably one of the best counters to mass S6 AND D weapons.

just spit ballin' at the current costs your almost certian to see a similar list to either of ours and PRETRE's at a major tourney... 10 jetbikes 40 shots 36" range!!!!

In all honesty, I would be surprised if Jetbike spam will be in any of the top lists. I don't see that happening regardless of what people are saying here.

(1) Jetbikes have a very large footprint, (2) they are relatively unwieldy, (3) large units are hard to hide which means they can and will be taking return fire, and (4) jetbikes are especially vulnerable to combat. In short, Jetbikes are not that hard to take out and lacking the survivability of the serpent ensures this and balances it out. I know, I've been playing off and on with a Saim-Hann style list:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/03/sprue-posse-mini-gt-battle-reports-part.html.

To be honest, Guardian Jetbikes/Wind Riders were always rather lack-luster in any capacity other than objective grabbing but were still fun to play. Now, at least they offer some offensive punch.

Likewise, Wraithguard need proper maneuvering to get into position to do damage and once locked down in combat, absent anything with hit and run (like Baharoth), are as good as useless for the rest of the game. D-Scythes are the only thing I really think are ridiculous if they become D weapons. Web Way portals are good too but those can be mitigated by proper positioning and use of "bubble wrap".

Overall, we have to wait and see how everything plays out with the dex and I personally hope distort =/= destroyer as it would make my 60 Wraithguard sad regarding ITC events (though I guess I can always take Wraithblades as they have served me well).

Anyway, I find all this doom and gloom and "eldar are OP" complaining amusing but also sad. Just because Eldar have strong options does not mean everyone will be taking them or has to take them. Don't want to play against Eldar because Eldar? Get over it... If someone wants to field something like I did here, http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/06/this-one-is-for-you-charlie-altioc.html one should hardly find cause to complain... Now yes, there will be players that field nothing but X where X is the perceived super unit but that is generally pretty rare unless you go to any really big tournaments.

Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

You can't play to the mission if you're dead.

Maybe I'm a little less optimistic, but if people can take 40 SL Bikes, they will.

I'm still hoping the codex brings sanity (who said I wasn't an optimist?).

Given the detachment description, I think the evidence available points toward the Wraith Knight being elevated to Gargantuan Creature status without the accompanying Lord of War designation. There is also, I think, evidence to support this idea in that if GW wants to sell a lot of Wraith Knights, every 'legal' list would need to have access to more than one. I already own 3 myself (TFG!), so why would I buy another if every list I write will be limited to just one?

The Imperial Knight, with its 'Super Heavy But Not Lord of War' designation set the precedent for this.

Yah pretre everyone was getting so worked up over the bikes and wraithguard/Knight. Meanwhile I was thinking about my 9 vaul batteries that I've been waiting to do something beside shadow weavers with. On the whole this whole process has taken the typical path. Everyone freaks out over one thing and misses something else that is going to be insane, or not. I'll wait till we see what happens when the codex comes out to make my decision.