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 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?

As per the last codex, they do not have the Hit and Run special rule.

So we can tarpit them, and eliminate their high folume of fire. There is only so much room on a table for 30+ jet bikes to hide out of charge range, while mainaining line of site, to make use of their scatter lasers.

I don't even have to change my current army lists to counter that.

 adamsouza wrote:
We have different opinions on what is expensive then.
10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33

$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.

How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?

Well, let's go back to MSRP for a sec. 10 boxes - $410 MSRP. With scatter lasers, which everyone is talking about, you're going to be at 810 points. I dunno what other boxes you mean, so let me leave those alone.

If you were to play 3 imperial knights you'd pay $420 MSRP for 1,125 points. To play the BA Angel's Fury formation at 1,080 points, you need $380 MSRP for 3 Storm Ravens and 30 tactical marines (You'll probably need to buy or make use some bits for specials too, since you don't want 1 plasma 1 melta 1 flamer). So yes, there's a premium, but it's not exactly towering.

And yeah, your "typical" armies aren't going to have 30 jetbikes OR 30 30 SM bikes. Transporting 30 jetbikes is also an issue.

 Talys wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
We have different opinions on what is expensive then.
10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33

$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.

How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?

Well, let's go back to MSRP for a sec. 10 boxes - $410 MSRP. With scatter lasers, which everyone is talking about, you're going to be at 810 points. I dunno what other boxes you mean, so let me leave those alone.

If you were to play 3 imperial knights you'd pay $420 MSRP for 1,125 points. To play the BA Angel's Fury formation at 1,080 points, you need $380 MSRP for 3 Storm Ravens and 30 tactical marines. So yes, there's a premium, but it's not exactly towering.

And yeah, your "typical" armies aren't going to have 30 jetbikes OR 30 30 SM bikes. Transporting 30 jetbikes is also an issue.

By the sound of things transporting or buying them won't be an issue. You can just say that you'll be bringing 30+ scatriders, no-one will agree to play you and you can go home content in your martial prowess and without having to spend any money on models.

 plastictrees wrote:


By the sound of things transporting or buying them won't be an issue. You can just say that you'll be bringing 30+ scatriders, no-one will agree to play you and you can go home content in your martial prowess and without having to spend any money on models.

Hahahaha... who knew 40k was such an easy game to win. You just made it much easier for WAAC players!

 adamsouza wrote:
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.

Then your experience is some bizarre alternate world that has nothing to do with the real one. $4-500 for 1000 points is about $0.50 per point. Compare that to a squad of basic guardsmen at $0.60 per point (don't forget you have to buy the HWT), or a Rhino at $1.00 per point, and the jetbikes are a pretty reasonable deal. The only way the jetbikes are way beyond the price of an average army is if the "average army" is ebay salvage with awful paint and half the pieces broken.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?

As per the last codex, they do not have the Hit and Run special rule.

So we can tarpit them, and eliminate their high folume of fire. There is only so much room on a table for 30+ jet bikes to hide out of charge range, while mainaining line of site, to make use of their scatter lasers.

I don't even have to change my current army lists to counter that.

Perhaps this gives me a reason to field Hormagaunts or Jeanstealers instead of using dakka-nids like I usually do. The problem is probably going to be catching them. GW did say that the new bikes would be the fastest unit in 40k, right?

 Peregrine wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.

Then your experience is some bizarre alternate world that has nothing to do with the real one. $4-500 for 1000 points is about $0.50 per point. Compare that to a squad of basic guardsmen at $0.60 per point (don't forget you have to buy the HWT), or a Rhino at $1.00 per point, and the jetbikes are a pretty reasonable deal. The only way the jetbikes are way beyond the price of an average army is if the "average army" is ebay salvage with awful paint and half the pieces broken.

Yeah, I think people are forgetting just how expensive building a 40k army is!

Farseer skyrunner 33.00

The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.

I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?

Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.

Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry

 adamsouza wrote:
Farseer skyrunner 33.00

The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.

I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?

Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.

Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry

Scarab farm would crumble to Scatriders.

 adamsouza wrote:
At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?

It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them

Resourcefull people could use different models as proxy like the Deadzone enforcer jetbikes

 krodarklorr wrote:
Scarab farm would crumble to Scatriders.

Turn 1 I have scarabs tarpitting them, up to charge distance into their deployment zone, with 4+RP, adding 10 bases per turn to the unit. Spyders are not impressed with S6 AP6, and scarabs stats are so low the S6 doesn't matter as well. Plus I have the wraiths which a couple months ago were they "sky is falling" unit that was supposed to break the game, as well as Tomb Blades, andother "Sky is falling unit" who ignore the windriders jink saves. Not to mention that most of my army is rocking 4+/3+ saves with 4+ RP which reduces the casualties from the windriders not tied up in assualt.

Seriously, is there some selective Dakka memory disorder where people forget how "impossible" to kill the necrons allegedly are ?

Jetbikes are easy to counter. If there's 40 of them that's units of 10/7, that big of a footprint makes them vulnerable to multi-assult which is particularly bad considering they're LD8. Although clearly they're biggest weakness is AP2/3 weapons and AV13.

With Marines you've got Cent star, bike grav, Relic whirlwind that ignores cover, Sicarian etc.

Nids have Mawlocs and lictors, which in this instance would works wonders against a clumped up bike army.

Chaos/Daemons has hounds, D. Princes and helldrakes.

Tau has farsight, sky rays and tides.

So if you're really having problems with them you have a large selection of codexs you can ally with. Also if you get them to jink, their shooting ablility goes right down.

Saying that I wouldnt expect to see more than 21 of them in any given army. Not spamming them makes them 1000% more effective.

 iddy00711 wrote:
Jetbikes are easy to counter. If there's 40 of them that's units of 10/7, that big of a footprint makes them vulnerable to multi-assult which is particularly bad considering they're LD8. Although clearly they're biggest weakness is AP2/3 weapons and AV13.

With Marines you've got Cent star, bike grav, Relic whirlwind that ignores cover, Sicarian etc.

Nids have Mawlocs and lictors, which in this instance would works wonders against a clumped up bike army.

Chaos/Daemons has hounds, D. Princes and helldrakes.

Tau has farsight, sky rays and tides.

So if you're really having problems with them you have a large selection of codexs you can ally with. Also if you get them to jink, their shooting ablility goes right down.

Saying that I wouldnt expect to see more than 21 of them in any given army. Not spamming them makes them 1000% more effective.

Also the fact that each model has 4 shots a piece, when you start killing them their amount of shots goes down exponentially

I would gladly invest in that many jetbikes if it got enough players to realize that there are better games at cheaper costs; I'd fall on that sword...

But seriously, I like Eldar and had 20 Jetbikes I ordered from eBay prior to selling off all my armies for other games. I could easily huck an army I'm not currently playing, get back a mountain of jetbikes, and go to town.

It's just the issue stated here. I'd either roll over people or no one would want to play me. The people left playing 40k are the "hook, line and sinker" crowd Forging Narratives and going full on scrub mode. They want it to be to be "PvE" when it's a "PvP" game.

And I might be removed from 7E, but folks trivializing "it's easy to counter jetbikes" fail the reasoning test of only 60% of that army is jetbikes. The rest is likely D Strength weaponry, grav tanks, or gargantuan creatures. Being able to apply your weaponry at full strength would actively require the Eldar player to play really, really bad. Stealing a Warmachine term, but when you're "in the dojo", or doing list building based on scenarios in your head, you have to assume both players are equally good. And a top level player with 160 S6 shots that can hit nearly any point on the table first turn and that's only 60% of his fire power... Yea, no. That's bad.

And remember, 50% of the time, you're eating that first turn with no remorse. You can literally park that army on the back board edge of your deployment zone (save "Football" deployment) and be super safe from most volume of attacks. Or just put some of the stuff in reserve if that's still a thing.

And the few answers folks are saying are either rare, not in the core rules, banned at events, are just not good for TAC. When you're hoping CSM showed up with three helldrakes (you know, those flyers that super nerfed again and will have a hard time flaming bikes after the first assault and likely to be shot in the butt), things are getting pretty dire.

Sorry to "SO SRZ BZNSS." I'll go back to cheese puns.

 adamsouza wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Scarab farm would crumble to Scatriders.

Turn 1 I have scarabs tarpitting them, up to charge distance into their deployment zone, with 4+RP, adding 10 bases per turn to the unit. Spyders are not impressed with S6 AP6, and scarabs stats are so low the S6 doesn't matter as well. Plus I have the wraiths which a couple months ago were they "sky is falling" unit that was supposed to break the game, as well as Tomb Blades, andother "Sky is falling unit" who ignore the windriders jink saves. Not to mention that most of my army is rocking 4+/3+ saves with 4+ RP which reduces the casualties from the windriders not tied up in assualt.

Seriously, is there some selective Dakka memory disorder where people forget how "impossible" to kill the necrons allegedly are ?

Presumably it would be the mentioned mass ranged D weapons they can still fit in. As we both know D weapons hilariously delete both your spyders and wraiths with you having zero chance to stop it.

Its the whole picture as it appears that seems to be the greater issue.

Me I run mech necrons where D weapons would absolutely smash me in short order. As a 2-6 removes my shields and 6 likely just plain removes the vehicle. D weapons ignore RP so really I left with no defense against the possible mass D weapons.

I suspect most armies are on the same footing as it looks right now.

Maybe you guys can move the arguing to a discussion thread and we can try to keep this as news and rumors.

My whole point was

1. You can spend 500-600 points on a hard counter to 1080 points

2. Jetbikes can be played against like normal bikes and if youre smart enough/ have the right tools you can wipe them out by turn 4. (O and add barrage weapons to the list)



@fishboy sorry mate.

 adamsouza wrote:
Farseer skyrunner 33.00

The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.

I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?

Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.

Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry

To be fair, I also listed Angelo's Fury. And the old wraithknight, at 240 points is more money per point. Thing is, most effective 40k armies are likely to be $700+.

You are right, on the other front, of course: if you bring super annoying units, nobody will play with you.

We don't yet have word on whether the Wraithknight will be limited right, as in become a LOW and therefore 1 per army?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We don't yet have word on whether the Wraithknight will be limited right, as in become a LOW and therefore 1 per army?

LoWs aren't one per army, and the new detachment lets you take 12, so there's that...

Ok so it costs as much as an entire army in order to spam bikes...are the average players you all generally play against spending that much with each codex release? I'm sorry that is not a valid point for most cases.

 Fishboy wrote:
Maybe you guys can move the arguing to a discussion thread and we can try to keep this as news and rumors.

For the love of god please do. There is already a thread for Eldar "discussion" right here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/644688.page

Ok, so just watched the vid ith the WD in it.

Wow. just wow.

I mean..what planet were the designers on.

I honestly and sincerely feel for the Eldar players. I stopped play my crons when the 6th ed codex came out, and I even caught a lot of flak for my tau (regardless of me only ever fielding 1 riptide, and having NO allies..). Now this for the eldar.

Several of my friends just had to drop eldar with the last dex, as no one wanted to play them, or they just were not "fun".

Sure, some folks who are not desperate to win with plastic soldiers might be able to gimp their own lists, so as to not steam roll people...but that's not a lot of fun either.

I was hoping they would get a new book, that was strong, but not OP, with good internal and external balance.

So far, this does not even remotely appear to be the case.

The "match ups' in the WD with the WK against various forces is just ...pathetic. Are the gw game designers so short sighted they even needed to do the battles? All of the outcomes they describe are pretty much incredibly predictable.

The ctan and tyranid ones are the most ....sad.

I'm finally about to finish painting my 1000 point jetbike heavy army--18 windriders (6 cannons) and 4 Shining Spears. Does this mean no one will want to play against me anymore?! I don't even own any extra scatter lasers I swear.

Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

Gents you all should of seen the jetbikes coming. Remember a little while ago when tomb blades upgrades got way cheaper and every model could take a special weapon? Remember in May when Windrider Jetbikes got the same treatment - the durability of tomb blades.

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

I had mentioned before that Onager Icarus Array is awesome. Highly accurate, ignores cover, great range, and 4++ in squad of 3. And skyfire for every shot, too. It fills a lot of Imperium holes IMO.

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.

Was thinking this.

The only reliable counter to the bikes that comes to mind is barrage weapons. A couple of wyverns out of LoS will at least make an eldar player think a little bit as he hoses down your army with scatter lasers.

Or say the new plasma turret terrain piece that went on sale recently and sold out almost as quickly?

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.

True, they are not fliers, but with the Ad Mech rules Onagers can snap fire at BS of 2. That's not insignificant.