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RacerX wrote: Just please everyone.
It can stop now...
The Wild Speculation I mean.
Needs to cease now.
No point anymore.
Some info was presented and it all needs to just stop.
Ok?
Thanks
Uh.. Racer someone pointed out to me that they had already seen the stuff I was pointing out and were still arguing anyway.. It's like trying to put out an oil fire with water.. Just let the sucker burn..
No no, please don't stop, watching you two desperately polishing those turds, slowly and steadily retreating to a new bulwark of feces each time one of your "wait & see, just calm down, wait & see, it can't be that bad" defences falls in the face of the reality that, yes, it is that bad; it's almost as entertaining as the slow-motion trainwreck of the AoS reveal itself.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Tank_Dweller wrote: I am kinda surprised there isn't more of a "modding" scene with Warhammer in all its carnations or maybe there is and I am oblivious to it. We need a website like steamworks where people can upload their mods and they can be rated and discussed so a real buzz can be created around them.
A result of the paradoxical condemnation of GW's rule writing ability and a fevered insistence to adhere to them as much as possible.
People just have to be shown that there is true value in them. We need good mods and we need Youtubers to publicise them and show them in action. There has never been a better time for the community to push for such things.
As always, it falls to the community to clean up GW;s mess. Glad I bailed out months ago.
From the top of my head, would this balance system work?
Give each war scrolls a points value, and then decide on how many war scrolls you want to use in a game. For example, you're having a 10 war scrolls game.
You must take a general - a hero or a lord character.
A hero costs 1 war scroll, a lord 2, and legendary characters (Nagash for example) cost 3 war scrolls. Wizards would probably be best costing 1 war scroll if they're only level 1 or 2.
Take 2 troops choices. Now, this is where it varies.
I would suggest working in 10s, as GW have said in the leaked rules, 100 models per side, should last an evening.
For example. 10 Chaos Warriors cost 2 war scrolls. 20 Empire Spearmen cost 1 war scroll. Forget about equipment. Let them chose what they want. The weapons themselves will have buffs/bonuses in the rules anyway. Two hand weapons extra attack, but weak defence. Spears good against cavalry etc You can double your Chaos warriors to 20 for the cost of 1 war scroll, for a total of 3 scrolls.
Double your empire guys to 40 for one more warscrolls.
Things like ogres should be 2 scrolls a unit. A unit being 5 ogres. Special choices, and Calvary, should be 2 scrolls, with five in a unit. Rare choices should cost 3.
Obviously, you'll have to determine what is common, special, and rare.
Using the above example, we get the following armies for a 10 scroll game
Chaos
20 chaos warriors = 3 scrolls
20 Chaos warriors = 3 scrolls
Hero of Khorne = 1 scrolls
Chariot = 1 scroll
5 Chaos Knights = 2 scrolls
Empire
40 spearmen = 2 scrolls
40 swordsmen = 2 scrolls
Empire Hero - 1 scroll
5 empire knights 2 scrolls
Cannon 2 scrolls
Level 2 fire wizard 1 scroll
Yeah, it's rough, but in previous editions, that made be a pretty fair match up. Chaos have the quality, Empire have the numbers.
Like I say, top of my head. Don't shoot me down for this.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Necros wrote: How about a "Scroll Point" system based on how the troops and stuff are done nowadays? Like...
Core = 1 Scroll, Special = 2 Scrolls, Rare & Heroes = 4, Lords = 8, Super Mega Tough thing = 16
Then you say I'm gonna play a "15 scroll game" or "20 scroll game" or whatevers?
Warscrolls for units that have been shown so far don't have a model limit for the unit. You and your opponent could bring the same number of scrolls but have a large different in number of models. Since the number of models is what can trigger certain victory conditions model count is more important than ever for balancing armies.
System is DOA. Expect a year before it's scrapped. Models are great. Condolences to people still invested in GW games.
And here, I thought the models were awful. Too cartoony, lacking any of the original, Fantasy aesthetic.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Or just ignore AoS exists and keep playing WFB. However, seeing as WFB wasn't selling any models either....
Keep going backwards until you find a system that works? 7th edition anyone with 8th ed books? 5th edition with 7th ed books? 3rd Ed with AoS units?! There has to be a combination in which WFB doesn't fail.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
Also text from mikhaila, they're serious about the no points thing:
Spoiler:
mikhaila wrote: So, i just got off the phone with one of the higher ups in GW US. Got a bit more perspective, discussed a project.
They are dead serious on the no points. It's something they say they deliberately did, and they aren't backing down from. No book coming, that's it.
So I'm starting a project to come up with a workable system for my stores to run leagues and tournaments with some sort of Army parity.
What I'm considering is taking each warscroll, and converting it into a a format similar to the original TitanLegion/SpaceMarine game. Each warscroll would now have a unit size and a points cost, plus a cost to add more increments to the unit. Points won't be like 8th edition, more similar to how Epic did it, or Privateer currently does it. I'll know more when i get the Warscrolls downloaded this weekend. 400 of them, by the way.
No attempt to balance army vs army since anyone can literally take anything. ( I don't believe you even have to restrict yourself to a faction, things just might work better if you do. ) This actually makes the job easier. Just trying to put a number on relative power of a set number of models.
Example: Ogre bulls, 6 models in a unit, complete with command. 21 points.
Ogre bulls, 3 models, 9 points. May be added to an existing Ogre Bulls unit, or used as a seperate unit.
After initial work is done, i'd like to go back and start larger Warscrolls, similar to how epic had Warhost cards. Basically a core of an army that you added units to. In epic you chose a Warhost, added 2-6 support units, and an optional special unit.
Initial Idea only! I can't really get to work until Friday at Midnight. Might try to get basic points done by the next sunday for a tournament.
Won't be balanced or pretty, just better than nothing.
It's so bad, I just can't stop watching. Wow...
The thing is, with 40k there was a gigantic playerbase that was going to play whatever the new version was no matter what, and so things like detachments and the like are just taken on the chin to keep playing the game.
But with fantasy... I can't see them keeping very many current players with this reboot (is anyone really willing to put their models up on other model's bases?). So they'd be banking on a lot of new players starting out...
I'm sure some will, but will it be enough... some of the models look great, though, and I can see many people picking them up. But in every other system, the game drives sales... and I can't see people playing this game long...
No no, please don't stop, watching you two desperately polishing those turds, slowly and steadily retreating to a new bulwark of feces each time one of your "wait & see, just calm down, wait & see, it can't be that bad" defences falls in the face of the reality that, yes, it is that bad; it's almost as entertaining as the slow-motion trainwreck of the AoS reveal itself.
Wow.
You don't get irony do you?
I'm clearly in the "this thing is cooked" camp.
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
it also stands to reason that whatever else comes out has to be compatible with what we've already seen. There'd be no point to using AoS as a starter set to introduce players to the new game if the rest of the game was substantially different than AoS. Every WFB unit from 8ed is getting a warscroll so the basic foundation of AoS is also the basic foundation for the game going forward since everything will be using the same warscroll system. The mechanics of the game may end up with more depth than what's currently available in the AoS box since players won't be limited to the box contents but it can't be that different without turning the introduction game into some sort of horrible bait and switch con.
MLaw wrote: Yeah, I'm not defending anyone.. I've said repeatedly that I'm not writing this off yet because I haven't seen EVERYTHING. I don't think the 4 pages are all of the rules, I'm betting that's just the starter pamphlet. I have said that several times but it's like shouting in the wind..
I like the Chaos models. Mostly for Mordheim prospects (I've said this before too). The not-Space Marines.. meh. I think they would work for some other game systems so I'm not worried about them but they do look kinda wonky.
The model cap.. I think that could be addressed by scenarios. If not, TOs and house rules can pick up the pieces.
At the end of the day, if this sucks, yeah I'm walking away from it just like I did Deadzone, 40k, and I dunno how many other systems.
Except we've been told multiple times that no more rules are coming and this is it, so at this point yeah you are just shouting into the wind. It's been pointed out multiple times. And even if it is somehow magically fixed by scenarios, what if I don't want to play the scenarios?
I honestly dunno what to tell you here. I actually don't like the no-points system and being scenario locked.. My main point was this is very likely not all there is.
As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
RiTides wrote: The thing is, with 40k there was a gigantic playerbase that was going to play whatever the new version was no matter what, and so things like detachments and the like are just taken on the chin to keep playing the game.
But with fantasy... I can't see them keeping very many current players with this reboot (is anyone really willing to put their models up on other model's bases?). So they'd be banking on a lot of new players starting out...
I'm sure some will, but will it be enough... some of the models look great, though, and I can see many people picking them up. But in every other system, the game drives sales... and I can't see people playing this game long...
Yeah, I think a key thing that some people are having trouble with is that they're not the target audience for AoS, and have been deemed more-or-less irrelevant in GW's eyes.
I agree that it's a big risk, especially with how they've approached it, but apparently sales were such that it's worth the roll of the dice. Didn't Hastings lay this out for us a week or two ago?
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
Yeah, Mantic have already been on Facebook and other social media doing a fair bit of "wink wink nudge nudge" type stuff. Kinda funny considering how badly their most recent rules release was received..
Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
MLaw wrote: As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
Have you actually looked at the rules?
They're complete. Not as detailed as WHFB. Not even remotely... Everyone moves the same, flying just lets you move over other models. Challenges, morale, and all the other fiddly stuff is gone. Special rules are covered on the individual Warscrolls.
This is it. There are no more rules coming. WHFB has become Top Trumps with miniatures.
XT-1984 wrote: Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
Seriously even GW can't be that stupid to think that telling people these rules are it, when people clearly aren't happy with them, isn't going to turn people away from the game. Yeah they can fix it later, but the damage will have been done. First impressions and all that.
RacerX wrote: Really, though, Mantic is going to take full advantage of this no doubt.
They already have army lists to welcome your existing forces into their game.
That does 90% of the work FOR you!
All you need to do is minor tweak and you are golden.
If they were SMART (and they ARE - Hi Ronnie you bugger!), they will continue to update rules as GW releases new stuff.
If I were Mantic, I would introduce an entire new supplement introducing all the Warhammer races! Provide something in the background that lets players cling to some of the backstory that they like while inculcating them into the Mantic world.
The problem with that is Mantic sucks. They can stay over there in the land of Kickstarter restic trash-landia.
Ninja'ed me on that one. Talk about turd products.
Perhaps.
But for those who want mass battles, without a dogs dinner of factions/races all mingled together and some cohesion... and are alive and supported?
Well, the list of options is short.
And the post was not about promoting Mantic at all.
I never said it was great.
The post was about how they will/can/should take clear advantage of GW throwing themselves off a cliff!
Yeah, Mantic have already been on Facebook and other social media doing a fair bit of "wink wink nudge nudge" type stuff. Kinda funny considering how badly their most recent rules release was received..
They have a 2nd edition coming? Or is that bad as well?
I don't know anything on the quality of any of it. Just know they are mostly all ex-GW who know the miniature gaming business.
From South Street to Baltimore.
Been there, done that.
XT-1984 wrote: Of course the GW rep said these are all the rules, its his job to sell them and at this present moment in time he is right.
GW always keep future releases secret so we spend our money now rather than wait for what we really want to be released.
The main rules will be no different.
Besides, if this really is the disaster some people here are making it out to be, how hard do you think it will be to fix a ruleset that is entirely free and online, far easier than any previous edition.
Judging by GW's own language, it'll be very hard to fix
It's a 4 page rulebook, but already, they've been talking about complex situations and rolling a D6 to fix them
If they can't cope with 4 pages, then a 300 page hardback rulebook, is way out of their league.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Apples and oranges though. Kings of War and Deadzone are such different beasts, so its hard to let a judgement of one rule-set inform another. Especially when Dreadball in between was a very excellent game, especially with a touch of team rebalancing.
I'm of the camp that has really been loving KoW, but as I have no real history with WHFB, I don't know what I am "missing" I suppose. At the very least, its 2nd edition is hella balanced. If the rules aren't crunchy enough for a given player, so be it, but if it has problems they definitely aren't the same ones Age of Sigmar is showing off. :-p
A collosal, terrible, flaming, buring, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spaying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
Best description of Age of Sorrow so far. I laugh out loud with every shade of laughter sth like 3 times per page on average
It's only now that I see how easily they could have bought me despite my eternal nostalgia for whfb and those lovely little regiments on those lovely little squares (cries) - a good trimmed down ruleset, some grimdark artwork, fluff making sense and the magic of warhammer name would make me subconsciously drink the koolaid in no time. But this, this is so pathetic that it makes the initial, "fear mongering" rumors sound like good news.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Dryaktylus wrote: So the Slayers don't find their salvation in a honourable death against mighty foes but in hoarding gold? Well, it's dwarven style too, but...
...
Damn, at first glance I read "backstabbing anal sneak assaults" in the Grot part.
MLaw wrote: As for being told multiple times that there are no more rules coming.. I don't buy it or I wouldn't be saying anything. Perhaps I'm in denial that a game system would be cocky enough to try to contain itself to such a limted number of pages (no offense to the one-page guys). The section on movement, chariots, special rules, flying, characters, challenges, morale.. all of that stuff cannot possibly be contained in 4 pages unless those are some huge mother-flppin pages.
Have you actually looked at the rules?
They're complete. Not as detailed as WHFB. Not even remotely... Everyone moves the same, flying just lets you move over other models. Challenges, morale, and all the other fiddly stuff is gone. Special rules are covered on the individual Warscrolls.
This is it. There are no more rules coming. WHFB has become Top Trumps with miniatures.
Maybe.. but if you've ever bought anything by any other company.. the rules with the starter are dumbed way down. This could be GW trying what M:TG did with their Portals set.. I dunno. I'm probably in denial because if this "is" all she-wrote then yeah.. it's a disaster. I also remember GW misleading, with-holding, or flat out lying about several things in the past to drive sales. Hold off on this, move that.. etc. Frankly, if they're going to continue their business model of milking customers by releasing a crapload of books.. it makes sense. Release a dumbed down beginners rule set.. then release advanced rules, appendices, expanded magic, etc etc.. like the old TSR books.
That said.. I do highly support the idea of playing previous editions of WHFB if this isn't what you like. I tried 6th ed 40k and hate it.. so I play older editions. I like Mordheim which isn't around anymore.. so I play that.. I only own the first printing of the Warmachine rulebook so that's what I play from PP. I'm not a big fan of feeling locked into something I don't like. I don't think it's unreasonable to make sure I don't like this though before I decide that I don't. Dr Seuss wrote a book on that.
Renegades - 
~4100
~1660
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
