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What a fething emotional rollercoaster that was.

Holy hell.

I'm betting the bit that's likely now got the internets in an absolute clusterfethed uproar was meant to happen within Stannis' first PoV chapter in WoW...
A lot of people seem to forget that D&D know how the whole story if meant to unfold, due to GRRM being a lazy git who can't be bothered to finish writing the books before he (likely) keels over of extreme old age.

Still, what an amazing episode!
- Stannis once again proves how he's easily the absolute worst contender for the Iron Throne.
- Ominous Ollie?!
- The Dorne scenes were much better than they have been, and provided a couple lighter moments for what is easily the darkest episode yet of this series.
- Daznek's Pit was fething awesome! So glad to see Ser Jorah live through it, (for now - Iain Glen is not yet credited for the finale), though that was some handy plot armour that allowed him to survive.
- DROGON!!!

Can't wait to see/hear all the crap that's coming GoT's way over the next, likely forever either!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Idue to GRRM being a lazy git who can't be bothered to finish writing the books before he (likely) keels over of extreme old age.

You know he's only 66, which isn't that old...

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Idue to GRRM being a lazy git who can't be bothered to finish writing the books before he (likely) keels over of extreme old age.

You know he's only 66, which isn't that old...

And he's already taken well over 20 years to get the first 5 books done...

All of this season felt like they were trying to make Stannis a nice guy and Shireen was the reason... Unless Ser Davos is amazing and fixes Stannis, Ramsey's starting to look nicer and nicer.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Idue to GRRM being a lazy git who can't be bothered to finish writing the books before he (likely) keels over of extreme old age.

You know he's only 66, which isn't that old...

And he's already taken well over 20 years to get the first 5 books done...

The life expectancy is for men in the US is 78. The first book was published in 1996 and since then it has taken 19 years to write four more books, averaging one book every four years and nine months. At this rate, he should have the series complete in nine and a half years, making him almost 76 with two years left to spare.

He'll make it.

 Dr. What wrote:
All of this season felt like they were trying to make Stannis a nice guy and Shireen was the reason... Unless Ser Davos is amazing and fixes Stannis, Ramsey's starting to look nicer and nicer.

It was IMO much more in character for book Stannis, less so for show Stannis. This way it feels like it was a harder decision and like he sacrificed something of great value to him. But it edges toward being out of character. The show does this stuff...sometimes it's an improvement, and sometimes it's not.

FWIW, I feel like show Tyrion is also more likeable than book Tyrion...although I think book Tyrion's actions against Tywin make more sense because of the differences in the conversation between him and Jaime.

I wonder how much of this has evolved out of actors' chemistry with one another. For instance, Dinklage and Waldau seem to work well together, so the writers kept them more bosom buddies instead of fracturing their relationship dramatically like in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Idue to GRRM being a lazy git who can't be bothered to finish writing the books before he (likely) keels over of extreme old age.

You know he's only 66, which isn't that old...

And he's already taken well over 20 years to get the first 5 books done...

The life expectancy is for men in the US is 78. The first book was published in 1996 and since then it has taken 19 years to write four more books, averaging one book every four years and nine months. At this rate, he should have the series complete in nine and a half years, making him almost 76 with two years left to spare.

He'll make it.

I can only assume that average also correlates to average health. GRRM...is high risk.

My paternal instinict was going fething haywire that is all I am going to say.

When ever I hear a kid crying for help I just can't stand it. Even though Hypocritically i had a scene very similar to that.

But man I thought it was going to be stannis..... If only.....

Ugh man that was harsh but that last bit with dany was pretty interesting.

Well we found out who was going to die this season....

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Well...

Spoiler:

I did not see Stannis actually going through with it and frankly, I'm a little surprised he did... it was also heart-wrenching to watch that scene, more so than a lot of other gak I've seen on this show.

Dany and the dragon... awesome. Yeah, I knew it was going to happen, but I still get excited for some dragon action and it didn't disappoint one bit.

Also, I was smiling through all the Dorne scenes just because I know House Sigvatr is going to be facepalming all bummed out the entire time.

As a father and yes I know its a TV show............

So yeah I just read up and saw something interesting...

I thought that scene was particularly weak and unnecessary. It wasn't necessary for Stannis' character, it wasn't necessary for the story to be driven forwards, it really seemed like "oh look here's something maybe mildly shocking we can just throw into this episode since it is episode 9.'

Poor episode all up.

 motyak wrote:
I thought that scene was particularly weak and unnecessary. It wasn't necessary for Stannis' character, it wasn't necessary for the story to be driven forwards, it really seemed like "oh look here's something maybe mildly shocking we can just throw into this episode since it is episode 9.'

Poor episode all up.

Really?

I thought it was quite good. But not as good as the previous episode which was fantastic.

It shows how far Stannis will go to accomplish what he wants

 Jihadin wrote:
It shows how far Stannis will go to accomplish what he wants

Exactly. I mean its not really out of character. I mean he did kill his own brother.

As terrible as it was, I think Stannis made the less-terrible choice. He could either give Melisandre his daughter's life and she could deliver them (assuming that actually happens, but she does have precedent) or everybody could starve to death (if Ramsay didn't get them first).

I was really hoping that Ser Davos was just going to abduct her and take her to the Wall, but of all men, Ser Davos would certainly know the dangers of bringing a girl near the men of the night's watch.

And Brienne.... Unless she does something amazing in the next episode, what was the point of her staring at Wintefell for half the season? I guess they payed Christie too much and didn't want to lose her to Star Wars?

Also, what's left? The King's Landing walk to be up to date with Cersei, Jon's trip to the cellar to get some salt , and a bit more Sansa/Arya? Plus a quick shot of Dany? What's supposed to happen to Tyrion now (which is part of the reason why I think GRRM gave Tyrion such a long journey)?

I didn't really feel that this title was as relevant to the plotlines (outside of Dany's parts). I think the Mother's Mercy will be applied to Cersei and Arya's stories more than the others. Maybe Jon too, for showing too much of it.

 Dr. What wrote:
As terrible as it was, I think Stannis made the less-terrible choice. He could either give Melisandre his daughter's life and she could deliver them (assuming that actually happens, but she does have precedent) or everybody could starve to death (if Ramsay didn't get them first).

I was really hoping that Ser Davos was just going to abduct her and take her to the Wall, but of all men, Ser Davos would certainly know the dangers of bringing a girl near the men of the night's watch.

And Brienne.... Unless she does something amazing in the next episode, what was the point of her staring at Wintefell for half the season? I guess they payed Christie too much and didn't want to lose her to Star Wars?

Well thats where she was. So she wasn't there for most of the season.

Yeah I mean he could of made a worse decision. But I think.... He could of sacrificed himself. And said "Let shireen be queen."

 Dr. What wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Saw two pics leaked from tonight/tomorrow's episode. Major spoilers underneath the button!

Spoiler:

Looks like Dany is going to fly away on Drogon...

...and there's also a picture with a pyre, two of Stannis' knights, and Shireen... Hope it's Shireen getting taken off the pyre, rather than on - that'd suck hard.

Ah crap - thats rubbish

To me, this is the only mark against Tyrion and Dany meeting early. In the books, I they should meet after she's gotten a bit more control over her dragons/matured a bit more.

Spoiler:

Otherwise, this leaves Hizdar (if he lives) in control of the city and Tyrion is supposed to do what exactly?

Since Stannis isn't practically a drone on the show, I expect he won't hurt Shireen like Melisandre wants or if he does, it'll be a massive crisis of faith for him. Either way, he'll likely shove Melisandre off (or try to) and he's likely to get a very different story from the books (hopefully not as bad as Dorne).

Watching tonight - hopefully Dany will just fly about for a bit and remeber she's supoposed to be a Queen and not do the usual GRM crap

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah I mean he could of made a worse decision. But I think.... He could of sacrificed himself. And said "Let shireen be queen."

But why would he have?

I think everyone (including myself) is forgetting, largely due to the show tricking us into have sympathy for him, that Stannis is a religious fanatic. This is the same man that murdered his own kin and truly believes that he is the messiah of his religion. He knows what he did was 'wrong' but his religious convictions have made him believe that he must do it. Melisandre has proven time and time again to be powerful (and the only reason Stannis has made it as far as he has), so at this point he has revery reason to believe that what he's done was the correct choice.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah I mean he could of made a worse decision. But I think.... He could of sacrificed himself. And said "Let shireen be queen."

But why would he have?

I think everyone (including myself) is forgetting, largely due to the show tricking us into have sympathy for him, that Stannis is a religious fanatic. This is the same man that murdered his own kin and truly believes that he is the messiah of his religion. He knows what he did was 'wrong' but his religious convictions have made him believe that he must do it. Melisandre has proven time and time again to be powerful (and the only reason Stannis has made it as far as he has), so at this point he has revery reason to believe that what he's done was the correct choice.

Yeah I made that point quite some pages back but people seem to think he was a nice reasonable man rather than a ruthless fanatic and after all - as was said in history (by William Marshall's father) - he has the tools to make more children................

I think the show did a nice bit of making Stannis a more sympathetic character from when you meet him to now. Also adding in the story in this season about the great lengths he went through to save his daughter from the grey scale put his sacrifice into frame. That said this is a man who burns people alive for his religion and has already murdered his own brother. It just mostly happened 3 years ago so people tend to forget

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah I made that point quite some pages back but people seem to think he was a nice reasonable man rather than a ruthless fanatic and after all - as was said in history (by William Marshall's father) - he has the tools to make more children................

Yep, I snapped out of it last night after thinking about the episode for a while before I went to bed. The show has made it clear since Season 2 that he's a religious nutjob but then tricks everyone into having sympathy for him with things like him telling his daughter how he refused to send to live with the stone men and correcting grammar at the Wall. Those things tend to make people forget that he allowed the man that raised him to die, killed his own brother with a murderous shadow, and burned his relatives alive because they refused to convert to his new religion.

He's essentially the Jim Jones of Westeros.

I found myself on the verge of giggling with glee at the dragon part.

I never really liked Stannis.. His daugher and his 2nd in command guy were the only ones I liked on his whole side. Hopefully he'll get killed by white walkers mere minutes before john snow gets there to save him.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah I made that point quite some pages back but people seem to think he was a nice reasonable man rather than a ruthless fanatic and after all - as was said in history (by William Marshall's father) - he has the tools to make more children................

Yep, I snapped out of it last night after thinking about the episode for a while before I went to bed. The show has made it clear since Season 2 that he's a religious nutjob but then tricks everyone into having sympathy for him with things like him telling his daughter how he refused to send to live with the stone men and correcting grammar at the Wall. Those things tend to make people forget that he allowed the man that raised him to die, killed his own brother with a murderous shadow, and burned his relatives alive because they refused to convert to his new religion.

He's essentially the Jim Jones of Westeros.

People forget that Stannis is an incredibly rigid and stubborn individual who will never admit that he's wrong. Combine that with pure ambition and a healthy dose of religion, and it's perfectly in character for him to do what he did.

IIRC, in the books, didn't he also burn his nephew, (another of Robert's bastards), who was his ward at Dragonstone & good friend of his daughter?

As I think it was said in the books, Stannis is iron...strong but brittle. Robert was the steel in that family.

But I dunno...if someone wants to say that it was out of character for show Stannis, I won't argue with them. They definitely downplayed his messiah complex in recent seasons and (greatly) built him up as a family man.

If I had to criticize the show writers, it'd be that sometimes the characterizations wander a little in the interest of creating bigger drama and shocking water cooler conversation moments. But I do understand that it's TV, and this is a mild criticism.

 gorgon wrote:
As I think it was said in the books, Stannis is iron...strong but brittle. Robert was the steel in that family.

But I dunno...if someone wants to say that it was out of character for show Stannis, I won't argue with them. They definitely downplayed his messiah complex in recent seasons and (greatly) built him up as a family man.

If I had to criticize the show writers, it'd be that sometimes the characterizations wander a little in the interest of creating bigger drama and shocking water cooler conversation moments. But I do understand that it's TV, and this is a mild criticism.

Spoiler:

So do we get the pleasure of watching Daenerys die of greyscale now?

No because she didn't touch his greyscale affliction directly.

also

See all of Stannis last night was just wrong, and against how things go in the book.

For start, Shireen, Selyse and Mel weren't present for the march to Winterfell. Then we get to the part where he tells his men that they will have to pray harder, cause he isn't gonna burn anyone to clear the blizzard. And then there is the part where he tells one of his Knights to go get sellswords and if they hear that he has died they are to come back and put Shireen on the Iron Throne or die trying.

I know they said that she'd get burned in the books, but that would likely be Mel and Selyse going behind Stannis' back.

All in all last night's episode was rubbish, more needless character changes.

Also being a Stannis fan is suffering.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
See all of Stannis last night was just wrong, and against how things go in the book.

For start, Shireen, Selyse and Mel weren't present for the march to Winterfell. Then we get to the part where he tells his men that they will have to pray harder, cause he isn't gonna burn anyone to clear the blizzard. And then there is the part where he tells one of his Knights to go get sellswords and if they hear that he has died they are to come back and put Shireen on the Iron Throne or die trying.

I know they said that she'd get burned in the books, but that would likely be Mel and Selyse going behind Stannis' back.

All in all last night's episode was rubbish, more needless character changes.

Also being a Stannis fan is suffering.

My thoughts exactly.

Meanwhile the Dany fans are screaming in delight, because omgwtfbbq dragons!!1

Getting real tired of your forced "shocking", D&D.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
See all of Stannis last night was just wrong, and against how things go in the book.

Good.

If you haven't noticed, most of this season has been against how things go in the book. That's a good thing. The show is surpassing the books, imo. Considering GRRM may only finish the books sometime in the next life, I'm okay with that.

Some of the changes are not good, particularly last night's changes.

I understand the need to show him as a man that will do what he needs to in order to win, but having him kill his own daughter because I need the blizzard to stop is not a good way to go about it. Plus having him go with a method closer to the book would build the story better, rather than what they now have.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Some of the changes are not good, particularly last night's changes.

I understand the need to show him as a man that will do what he needs to in order to win, but having him kill his own daughter because I need the blizzard to stop is not a good way to go about it. Plus having him go with a method closer to the book would build the story better, rather than what they now have.

I disagree. I think these storylines are much better than the books.

Dany's storyline is much bitter.

So is Tyrions, Stannis's is much better, Theons, Jon's and every single character's storyline (minus dorne's That storyline was pretty bad).

I thought overall this was a better episode than the rest of the season (minus episode 8, which was fantastic)