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2015/06/17 16:56:06
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Remind me who Nissa Nissa is?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/17 17:03:41
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I don't think anyone not familiar with the theory behind it knows what it's about. It's not a spoiler anyway, the entire thing is just a theory at this point.
Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Remind me who Nissa Nissa is?
That is still without a doubt the dumbest scene in all of game of thrones.OH no our iron armor and swords can't deal with three dogs!!!!
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/06/17 17:27:54
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
In fairness, they're pretty big dogs lol. And having to fight 3 dogs as well as Ramsay and his men could be a messy fight. Plus Ironborn are pirates- why stay and get butchered when you can leg it and have a chance at survival?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I think the Bronn and Sand Snake "You want hot pussy" scene is a strong contender for most stupid scene.
Isn't it "bad pussy?" Most Sand Snakes moments are pretty silly - worst fighters in the show - Sam could kill 'em Plus - they do make the stupidst plans
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Of course Jon Snow isn't GFG. And pointing out that the show is different from the books just strengthens the case for his return. KH brings viewers. In the meantime, HBO has something they can market. "Will he return or won't he?"
Regarding KH's involvement/lack of involvement with season 6, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM...
Spoiler:
...has JS warg just before his death, and for the character to spend most of TWOW separated body (now healed by Melisandre) and soul in a Search for Spock-styled scenario. That would torture readers, so it seems like a strong possibility, knowing GRRM.
Regarding the role of JS in the story, I think it might be important to remember that GRRM doesn't like to roll with the obvious or genre standard in these books.
Spoiler:
And having him return as THE HERO, riding in on a dragon with his Valyrian sword to defeat the 'evil' Others would qualify on both counts IMO. I'm not sure if Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are even the same person, or if either will be exactly what's expected.
For one thing, it seems to me that at a basic level JS in the R+L=J scenario doesn't represent fire (/R'hllor/Targ/Valyrian) so much as a balance between fire and ice. He therefore doesn't seem to make for a great champion of R'hllor like Azor Ahai is expected to be.
Of course, the prophecy may be incomplete or misunderstood, just as I tend to think that the real nature of the Wall, the Night's Watch, the relationship between ice and fire, etc. has been forgotten with time in the stories. I think JS's parentage and destiny is the key (keystone?) mystery in the story, but not one of the ultimate mysteries.
gorgon wrote: Of course Jon Snow isn't GFG. And pointing out that the show is different from the books just strengthens the case for his return. KH brings viewers. In the meantime, HBO has something they can market. "Will he return or won't he?"
Regarding KH's involvement/lack of involvement with season 6, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM...
Spoiler:
...has JS warg just before his death, and for the character to spend most of TWOW separated body (now healed by Melisandre) and soul in a Search for Spock-styled scenario. That would torture readers, so it seems like a strong possibility, knowing GRRM.
Regarding the role of JS in the story, I think it might be important to remember that GRRM doesn't like to roll with the obvious or genre standard in these books.
Spoiler:
And having him return as THE HERO, riding in on a dragon with his Valyrian sword to defeat the 'evil' Others would qualify on both counts IMO. I'm not sure if Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are even the same person, or if either will be exactly what's expected.
For one thing, it seems to me that at a basic level JS in the R+L=J scenario doesn't represent fire (/R'hllor/Targ/Valyrian) so much as a balance between fire and ice. He therefore doesn't seem to make for a great champion of R'hllor like Azor Ahai is expected to be.
Of course, the prophecy may be incomplete or misunderstood, just as I tend to think that the real nature of the Wall, the Night's Watch, the relationship between ice and fire, etc. has been forgotten with time in the stories. I think JS's parentage and destiny is the key (keystone?) mystery in the story, but not one of the ultimate mysteries.
It's very curious to consider the many ways that Jon may play out.
Spoiler:
Warging is pretty obvious, but his soul may also be saved by deus ex foliage with Bran sucking his soul across the world, and regrowing him a tree body- or imbuing Cold Hands with his spirit, if he's technically dead. For that matter.... Jon Snow being cast over the wall and becoming another rogue Wight, and perhaps raising his own army of good ice zombies with Cold Hands would be a strange journey.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
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2015/06/22 20:22:43
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
I've to Jon up there with the Browncoats if he is truly gone
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2015/06/22 20:49:06
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the whole 'Melisandre will Revive Him' thing is maybe TOO obvious and GRRM doesn't like to do the obvious.
Unless doing the obvious here because people expect him to not do the obvious is enough of a swerve to satisfy his inner evil?
Granted, I've been thinking this will be happening since 2011, so maybe it...er...yeah, I don't know.
I'll admit to being bummed if Jon is gone for good.
Its only "obvious" because readers put the clues and hints together over two decades to form the R+L=J theory and plastered it all over the internet. It wasn't obvious back in the 90's.
Melisandre reviving Jon is something that GRRM would have planned/sketched out years ago. Hes on record as saying he doesn't read, respond to, or adapt his storylines, with regards to fan theories and feedback. He's not going to rewrite his material to spite readers by not doing the obvious, or doing the obvious because we expect him not to do the obvious, just because some people guessed future plot details correctly. He's going to stick to the plan, come hell or high water.
My guess is, Melisandre WILL revive Jon, perhaps by sacrificing herself. Every sacrifice she's made so far has been of innocents - people sacrificed against their will. IIRC, the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the Azor Ahai legend was a willing sacrifice (theres no mention of her resisting AFAIK). Perhaps thats what it takes to satisfy R'hllor - a willing, selfless sacrifice. When Thoros of Myr refused to revive...
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart , Beric Dondarrion gave up his own life to do it (Kiss of Life or something - he transferred the magic sustaining him to Stoneheart).
Which would explain why all Melisandre's previous human sacrifices failed to achieve her aims.
Its been heavily foreshadowed that R+L=J, and that Jon will return in some form. But it sure as hell won't be as Jon Snow. When people are resurrected by R'hllor, its said to eat away at their soul - they lose a part of them every time (Beric Dondarrion). If Jon returns, it won't be as the hero we've known. He'll be a much darker character, a champion of Fire (R'hllor), not a Hero. And as we've seen with Melisandre, the servants of R'hllor aren't exactly the good guys either.
Ice and Fire. Neither side is truly good or evil.
Kill the boy, and let the Man be born.
-Master Aemon Targaryen.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Nights Watch vow.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 20:52:44
2015/06/22 23:00:46
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the whole 'Melisandre will Revive Him' thing is maybe TOO obvious and GRRM doesn't like to do the obvious.
Unless doing the obvious here because people expect him to not do the obvious is enough of a swerve to satisfy his inner evil?
Granted, I've been thinking this will be happening since 2011, so maybe it...er...yeah, I don't know.
I'll admit to being bummed if Jon is gone for good.
Its only "obvious" because readers put the clues and hints together over two decades to form the R+L=J theory and plastered it all over the internet. It wasn't obvious back in the 90's.
Melisandre reviving Jon is something that GRRM would have planned/sketched out years ago. Hes on record as saying he doesn't read, respond to, or adapt his storylines, with regards to fan theories and feedback. He's not going to rewrite his material to spite readers by not doing the obvious, or doing the obvious because we expect him not to do the obvious, just because some people guessed future plot details correctly. He's going to stick to the plan, come hell or high water.
My guess is, Melisandre WILL revive Jon, perhaps by sacrificing herself. Every sacrifice she's made so far has been of innocents - people sacrificed against their will. IIRC, the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the Azor Ahai legend was a willing sacrifice (theres no mention of her resisting AFAIK). Perhaps thats what it takes to satisfy R'hllor - a willing, selfless sacrifice. When Thoros of Myr refused to revive...
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart , Beric Dondarrion gave up his own life to do it (Kiss of Life or something - he transferred the magic sustaining him to Stoneheart).
Which would explain why all Melisandre's previous human sacrifices failed to achieve her aims.
Its been heavily foreshadowed that R+L=J, and that Jon will return in some form. But it sure as hell won't be as Jon Snow. When people are resurrected by R'hllor, its said to eat away at their soul - they lose a part of them every time (Beric Dondarrion). If Jon returns, it won't be as the hero we've known. He'll be a much darker character, a champion of Fire (R'hllor), not a Hero. And as we've seen with Melisandre, the servants of R'hllor aren't exactly the good guys either.
Ice and Fire. Neither side is truly good or evil.
Kill the boy, and let the Man be born.
-Master Aemon Targaryen.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Nights Watch vow.
Couldn't of said it any better!
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/06/22 23:44:26
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 23:46:14
gorgon wrote: R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
There is always something that has to be sacrificed. Such is magic.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/06/23 00:43:35
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
I think GRRM takes as long as he does to write books because he has to change everything once someone on the internet figures out where he is headed with a character of his. IMO he enjoys nobody knowing what he is up to.
We should start the rumor that he intends to die before finishing all the books. Maybe he will, you know, finish them.
A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
2015/06/23 05:48:53
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
gorgon wrote: R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
I think there'll definitely be the temptation for revenge at least. Being betrayed and murdered by your "brothers", then resurrected by a vicious God of Fire and Shadow demons, must play on your psyche. It'd be like falling to the Dark Side - can Jon resist and retain his identity? My guess is no - that part of him is dead and gone, the boy the man of the Nights Watch has been killed. Jon will have to take on a new identity, let the Man be born R+L=J.
2015/06/23 06:10:48
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
In short, it's the theory that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark had a child that Eddard Stark promised to protect, named Jon Snow.
Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, one of which was The Prince Who Was Promised, which he tried to fulfill with Lyanna Stark (whether she was willing or not still has not been determined).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, some of the casting calls (which should be revealed for sure at Comic Con in a few weeks)
Spoiler:
Euron Greyjoy (Possibly Victarion, but I doubt it)
Randyll Tarly + Family
Seption Meribald (Gravedigger!?), possibly showing up for the trial with 7 septons? Or is Brienne getting back on track?
Some Red Priestesses (Asshai? Finally?)
3 boys (could be another Maggie the Frog style flashback). One who is playing a boy 7 or 8 and is clever and seems too big for his age. Big and tall, but not fat. A 12 year old with brown hair, blue eyes, and a northern accent that can spar with a wooden sword. And a 7 year old with a narrow face, green eyes, a northern accent, and can spar with a wooden sword. (Young Jon, Rob, and Theon? Or Ned, Brandon, and Robert?)
2 new Dothraki
A new band of people, with a leader named Lachlan. They've turned on the people whose land they've sworn to protect. There's Bauer, a powerless servant whose numb to the horrors of what he does. They all have northern English accents. Not the Brotherhood without Banners? Or just a cover up, as they could be building to make Lady Stoneheart matter more. I doubt it's the Brave Companions either.
A legendary fighter in his 30s/40s who is a great fighter and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a famous sword (i.e. Valyrian. Definitely flashback material. Arthur Dayne/Dawn? This could fit very well with Ned Stark/Howlen Reed and the Tower of Joy.
And some more people from Northern Ireland (Northerners for the show):
Two Lords for different castles, one of which is a huge man (Smalljon Umber?) and the other is supposed to be ruthless, calculating, and frightening that rules a vassal household with a castle stronghold (White Harbor? Which would make for White Harbor/The Last Hearth stuff. Or the Karhold or Deepwood Motte?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 06:57:43
2015/06/23 08:30:22
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
I dunno, I mean the whole Jon = Azor Ahai thing makes sense to me.
But I've also had thoughts about the Nights Watch actually being more like UN Peacekeepers in a demilitarised zone, rather than Roman Centurions on Hadrians Wall.
I've also had thoughts of there being a Champion of Fire (Dany) and a Champion of Ice (Jon, maybe?) then them marrying in a peace accord.
Spoiler:
Which is backed up by some separate stories in the book
I've also thought about possibility of there being some sort of "Babylon 5" style ending, with someone representing just plain normal humans saying the equivalent to: "get the hell out of our galaxy"
2015/06/23 12:07:12
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
Lets keep in mind that there are and likely will be growing differences between the books and the show.
The Show will simply not be allowed to be massively indulgent, bringing in dozens of new characters of dubious import and interest and ingoring the main plot in favour of wondering vaguely from palce ot place - thats one of its strengths at the moment..
The show has to pay its actors so it will stick with the main cast and their plots.
Jon Snow may or may not return ( I hope not) but it will be more dependant on his costs, popularity and any actual importance in the main plot than if he is referenced in the books. It may be that legions of female fans will not watch (I doubt it) but if so then that might be a reason to bring him back....
From the shows perspective - some of its main selling points are:
Its willingness to kill main cast - rare and something GRM undermined by his Lady Stone heart and similar - which is another reason why i dont think they will bring him back
Strong female characters like Dany - keeping her strong through the recent series was a major chnage and improvement on what GRM inflicted on her character Dances. Its also what the audiance expect and want to see.
and thats important GRM seems to be disinterested in the fans views but a TV show can't be.......it may not always please them but they increasingly tned ot keep a clsoe eye on what is beign said......
the "Babylon 5 ending" would be interesting -
On Lady Stone heart - after her rather cool arrival did he ever do anything with that character?? If the show brought her in - it would require lots of plot change as they would need her to do something - something the author shied away from.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Who has died on the show that's not dead in the books? Selmy and that's about it. The show has dropped a lot of characters that will just cause problems later on (*cough Aegon *cough), but it'd have been worse if we had Jeyne Poole (Jon got shifted to Hardhome, Sansa needed something, and the Lannisters didn't need to trade Arya) or Selmy (Tyrion shows up? Selmy would want him dead).
GRRM and D&D know very well that they can't kill Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, or Jon without everything hitting the fan.
2015/06/23 13:40:22
Subject: Re:Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
See, I'm completely down with the theory that the Night's Watch was created as a *neutral* force to guard the Wall from both directions...a wall that the Others created. It's a massive magical wall of ice, right? And IIRC, originally *both* sides of the wall were fortified. Which is a very telling point IMO.
But over thousands of years, they've forgotten all of this. The truth has become garbled legends that can't be trusted. And I suspect that the Night's King legend may be one of those garbled truths. So perhaps like the B5 scenario, this may be something that they have to *understand* their way out of.
In the books...
Spoiler:
...we have the vision of the blue rose at the Wall. The blue rose clearly suggests Lyanna, and ultimately probably JS in the R+L=J scenario. But I've wondered if that vision suggests Jon's current presence at the Wall, or his future and destiny. I can definitely imagine a conclusion that puts an immortal JS at the Wall as a new Night's King to forever keep the peace between the two realms.
Then again, maybe it'll end up as a simple, straight-line good/evil story that leaves the bigger questions completely unanswered. With GRRM in charge, who the hell knows?
Ultimately I think
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart and Coldhands
are probably dead-end stories in GRRM's mind, which is why the show writers were so quick to cut them. I miss Coldhands, because there are such interesting possibilities about his true identity. But I also recognize that he may be the equivalent of the missing primarchs in 40K...a snippet to add depth and mystery that lacks a true conclusion or answer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 13:41:02
Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Remind me who Nissa Nissa is?
That is still without a doubt the dumbest scene in all of game of thrones.OH no our iron armor and swords can't deal with three dogs!!!!
Or why they just didn't, you know, kill Ramsey before he opens the cage. Or just knock Theon out.
I thought the Iron Born were known for their harsh pragmatism.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2015/06/24 13:19:29
Subject: Game of Thrones Season 5 - Hyped! [SPOILERS]
gorgon wrote: Ramsey becoming a super magical ninja isn't one of the strong points of the TV series.
Guess one person's "cool" is another persons "silly" I have seen him being eveil, getting stuck into fighting but no "ninja" abilities -do you mean getting close enought to Stanis camp full of frozen, ill equiped and half starved men to burn bits and pieces and drive horses off - that was pretty realistic I felt...........Ask Napolean and Hitler about campaigning in the winter.....
Ramsey being a decent bad guy is one of my many favs and why its better than the books - great acting as well by him and Theon.
In the world they live in the Boltons may be very important in defending the North - maybe much more so than the dead bastard of a dead family
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 14:19:57
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
- also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Legion: Dark Angels 
~1660