Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They did mention after the show that one purpose of the way the battle was filmed was to show that quite often skill had little to do with surviving a fight, and that simple luck was often the deciding factor between you getting killed or the bloke next to you.

It's luck of the arrow misses you, it's luck if the horses don't trample you, it's luck of the guy getting ready to chop you with an axe gets hit by another horse, it's luck that you don't get crushed.

The fight sequence around Jon was entertaining. Duck, dodge horse, chop that guy, ally kills guy about to kill you, help another guy and then an arrow kills him, duck again, stabbity stab...

 Asherian Command wrote:
but what fool would break formation? .

Does a blob count as a formation?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh no we actually SEE a battle for once.

Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.

I haven't watched the previous series but I am finding that a lot of the events in this one are so poorly crafted that they break immersion and that is not a mark of quality.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
but what fool would break formation? .

Does a blob count as a formation?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh no we actually SEE a battle for once.

Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.

I haven't watched the previous series but I am finding that a lot of the events in this one are so poorly crafted that they break immersion and that is not a mark of quality.

To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.

 Ustrello wrote:

To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.

Only in that there was an encirclement, how it came about was completely different and it didn't involve the Carthaginians being completely unengaged and allowed to march past the Romans.

Does a blob count as a formation?

Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.

*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*

If any unit or guy was outside of the shield wall, the phalanx auxiliaries and outside units would just mop them up, it would be far better to stay together than to separate and divide your force.

If the units scattered it would of been absolute defeat for them. Infact that is what happened to stannis, his forces ran away he had a strong center, but his outside forces (Behind his lines) all ran away, while the horsemen flanked them and dealt with the retreating forces.

If you are looking for a true pitch battle you will never see one in movies or TV that is accurately portrayed a 100% with actual Renaissance tactics or military tactics of the time.

I don't expect the people leading these armies to be Hannibal or Napolean or hell Charlemane or Richard the Lionheart or even Saladin or even the likes of Alexander the Great.

If this battle was true to the times, Jon would of just had an army of pikemen and crossbowmen against an army of crossbowmen and pikemen with auxillariy units sprinkled along the sides, horses were beginning to phase out near the end of the Middle Ages, we also don't have two amazing tacticians, Ramsay is not hannibal, nor is jon a Richard the Lionheart. (Though as commanders they are similar to those two)

With the encirclement basically happening in real life as well. It happens commanders get over confident and push all their forces in the center, its a rookie mistake and it will cost you the battle and most likely your life. I do think they did a good job of representing it. But lets not forget that very few movies or books (the game of thrones books are infamous for having terrible military strategy written all over them). It is unfair to judge the show as such, because its source material is well, worse at it.

recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.

Its not just a perfect recreation its basically an reenactment. The Roman Horsemen and Calvary were bloody infamous for getting slaughtered in the first few minutes of a battle its why more infantry units survived to become generals than a horsemen. Because 1 horsemen are easier to take down, 2. a warhorse didn't exist at the time, 3. they were usually scouts and were thus lightly equipped, 4, they carried spears and short swords (Not very good for striking down at an opponent)

Jon is completely right, if history is anything to go by. The battle would of been won if they had stuck to their strategy, and enclosed around them and had suffociated ramsay's forces.

But Ramsay played his games with him and he fell straight into it.

I hope we see jon learn from this and not become more of a fool like his brother did. And become "oh look at me break my vow and win every battle and essentially lose every political battle and be dishonorable."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.

Only in that there was an encirclement, how it came about was completely different and it didn't involve the Carthaginians being completely unengaged and allowed to march past the Romans.

They chased off the roman Calvary and then circled from behind, a force of 12,000 against a few roman legions, the fact that they slowly encircled them happened in pitch battle halfway through it was a full encirclement, and only a few managed to escape and they did not engage most ran for it because they knew it was a lost cause. Especially with Carthage's Elite Calvary harassing them all over the place.


Either way jons forces would of been screwed if they moved back, they didn't know that Ramasy sent everyone, they would think "Oh he probably still has his archer units behind ready to pick them off if we cross over the wall. Plus they had no true commander organizing the efforts going on. It was a mismash of wildfolk being taken advantage of by the Bolton superior training.

No matter how you look at it, it wasn't terrible military strategy on ramasy's part apart from shooting at his own men. He encircled the army and took advantage of them bunching up and decided to completely encircle them because their commander was unable to allow the flanks to not be exposed.

He was, supposedly, the last giant right ?

The battle was a mess - but honestly the depiction of it as a confused and extremely brutal mess matches quite a lot of historical descriptions - its nothing like pushing a few carefully ranked units round a nice flat terrain less table where everyone can see and be seen.

On one side we have a competent general who has planned for his enemy and knows how to use psychological tricks to help him win.

On the other we have a few groups of warriors who don't know or trust each other led by a guy who's good with his sword and inspirational but has zero idea of tactics or commanding large bodies of men. There is no command structure in Jon's "army" - people just do what they think is right - that's one of the various reasons he keeps loosing (plus lack of actual men!)

Sansa is the only one who seems to get it before the battle- she knows her brother is gone, that Ramsey actually knows what he is doing and Jon simply doesn't. Her being side-lined in the conference makes sense to those involved, what they would think does she have to contribute beyond being the figurehead for the Stark revival.

Some medieval kings did take advice from their wives, even in matters of war - Edward I was given a treatise on Roman ways of war by his beloved first wife who seldom left his side - even on campaign, but it was seldom done in councils of war as far as I can tell.

Ramsey does make a few mistakes - he had no need to send his cavalry in - just slaughtered the opposite cavalry with his bowmen as they charged after the lone idiot waving his sword about. But he likes people dying so I guess it fitted - reminded me of the bit in Braveheart when Edward I tells his archers to fire on the melee. Setting aside the total and complete inaccuracy of that film which makes GOT look like a documentary - it was a cool bit.

Also his scouts missed a large cavalry force moving up from the South! Opps.

Not sure why people are unhappy about the "feminist" angle - we have good and bad women, success and failure - isn't that how it should be?

Republic Roman Cavalry was indeed relatively weak - both in numbers and quality - they relied later on auxiliaries which did improve as the Empire came into force.

If any of the new Stark Allies in the minor Houses survived - they should question the competency of JS as a commander given that he basically threw his whole army away. However I get the impression no one expected to win except maybe the wildlings

To be fair, Jon Snow didn't actually throw his army away. They had some kind of plan before the battle. He just had a lapse of weakness that drove him to do something stupid. It was ultimately Davos that gave the order to send the calvary in to save Jon (which is what led to the army being destroyed).

While it makes some sense (in the show's world) to do so, because if Jon Snow dies, then his 'army' also probably would crumble immediately, but I think Jon was perfectly willing to sacrifice himself at a chance to save Rickon...he just obviously didn't have time to think through what that action would mean.

Anyway, no matter how much of his army got slaughtered, there is no doubt that the tale of this battle that would spread across the land was not only did an outnumbered force take on the Bolton army and destroy it, they also managed to do it despite the Bolton force was occupying a fortress (Winterfell).

That the Knights of the Vale were who really saved day and that Ramsay's arrogance is what led to him deciding to take the fight outside the walls would likely not really 'make the headlines' IMHO.

Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.

He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.

Like his father, Jon is a good man and consequently a terrible general, heart over head.

in contrast Sansa is now (like Dany) becoming a leader where you have to make unpleasent choices and live with them.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.

He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.

Remember when on GoT characters actually got punished for fething up, it's what makes the end of season 1 so hard hitting & solidified the show as not your run of the mill fantasy show
The Red Wedding was another example of fetthing up gets you fethed up

But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-06-21/did-you-spot-this-clever-series-three-callback-in-the-latest-game-of-thrones

huh, oh yeah.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.

He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.

Remember when on GoT characters actually got punished for fething up, it's what makes the end of season 1 so hard hitting & solidified the show as not your run of the mill fantasy show
The Red Wedding was another example of fetthing up gets you fethed up

But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place

The story is supposed to be working towards closure here. That means some characters are going to get plot armor. Otherwise everyone is going to keep dying, and we're going to finish the story with a handful of characters who have had two chapters/scenes about them.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place

Lol wut?

John has no Plot Armour, Johns dead next episode. Either because of Sansa or because Littlefinger will not suffer someone who MIGHT have a chance of messing up his plans. Littlefinger already made it clear he wants to be Warden of the North. He asked that from Cersei last time they spoke. He helped Sansa and already warned her about John earlier this season so the seed is already there.

The thing about this show is that they don't have much time to get all the plot points out so everything that seems casually dropped in the show is important. Same thing in regards to Tyrion name dropping the Wildfire buried under Kings landing last episode (most likely Cersei will "burn them all" as she is so happy to keep mentioning.

There is no plot armour, only "There death at this point is not sufficiently devastating enough to do now."

Jon's not dying next episode. As far as Sansa knows he's the only family she has left. He also understood her anger and grief enough to let her get her revenge on Ramsay. Also Jon has made it clear he has zero interest in ruling Winterfel or the North. His endgame is to prepare the realm for what's coming. And having Sansa (his sister) be in charge of the north to help support him while he does what he has to is way easier than getting bogged down ruling.

And Sansa, even though she used to treat him like poop, knows her brother is a man of his word where Littlefinger sold her to be raped and tortured.

But I'm liking that the story might actually be over in 1-2 more seasons at most. I feel like 8 seasons is likely perfect. Or even an extended 15 episode season 7 might be enough at the speed they are going. Especially once more and more characters start to end up together like Tyrion/Dany and Sansa/Jon.

Well if Sansa doesn't do it I can't see Littlefinger not doing it. He wants to be warden of the North, he's said as much. He also wants Catelyn...but since he can't have her he wants Sansa instead. Sansa is heir of Winterfell so marrying her to cement the Alliance between the North and the Vale makes him Warden of the North.

The only thing messing that up is Jon, and if the Tower of Joy reveal is what we all think it is then marrying Sansa won't get him Winterfell, so he has to go. So I totally see Jon going down. Like was mentioned by Melisandre last episode, maybe he's only here to do this one thing before the Lord of Light no longer needs him.

.. I cannot see that ending well for Littlefinger.

but YMMV.

Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.

Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.

Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.

Yeah but it got to the point where the pile of bodies looked about 10ft+ high which is just ridiculous, at some point people would be going around the piles of bodies instead of climbing atop them

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.

Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.

Yeah but it got to the point where the pile of bodies looked about 10ft+ high which is just ridiculous, at some point people would be going around the piles of bodies instead of climbing atop them

Well I imagine that the Bolton archers were directly targeting anyone trying to climb over or go around the barrier, deterring any advance and encouraging the Stark soldiers to stay behind for cover.

Definitely ridiculous, but slightly less ridiculous if you assume that the Boltons did that deliberately rather than it happening purely by accident.

 Asherian Command wrote:

*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*

Separated from whom? Jon's army were in what is technically known as a 'heap', they could easily have broken through the relatively thin line before the Boltons established themselves and their pikemen.

Or of course they could simply have had the pikemen envelop the melee in the centre without resorting to the towering piles of corpses and then having everybody idily standing around watching their doom approach. Even my wife thought that it was daft and she has no interest nor knowledge of military history.

There doesn't seem to have been much thought put into it and that seems to be a recurring theme.

I think the idea was that by the time the Bolton infantry advanced the remaining Stark forces were knackered. bruised and bloody and simply saw a wall of the enemy advancing on them

They did not know what to do - they had not fought anything like it and had no leadership or command to tell them - Jon was in a blood haze, Davos was nowhere to be seen, the House leaders were not apparently on the field or had been killed by the mad charge at superior numbers to save Jon from his own gross stupidity.

So as happens in real battles, they froze, unsure of what to do. They thought (rightly) the battle was lost. Few people will fight to the death.

Finally the wildling leader started getting them to attack but it was far too late.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Well if Sansa doesn't do it I can't see Littlefinger not doing it. He wants to be warden of the North, he's said as much. He also wants Catelyn...but since he can't have her he wants Sansa instead. Sansa is heir of Winterfell so marrying her to cement the Alliance between the North and the Vale makes him Warden of the North.

The only thing messing that up is Jon, and if the Tower of Joy reveal is what we all think it is then marrying Sansa won't get him Winterfell, so he has to go. So I totally see Jon going down. Like was mentioned by Melisandre last episode, maybe he's only here to do this one thing before the Lord of Light no longer needs him.

Am I missing something?

1) I'm not sure what the Tower of Joy has to do with it.

2) Even if the Tower of Joy had some bearing on things,



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*

Separated from whom? Jon's army were in what is technically known as a 'heap', they could easily have broken through the relatively thin line before the Boltons established themselves and their pikemen.

Or of course they could simply have had the pikemen envelop the melee in the centre without resorting to the towering piles of corpses and then having everybody idily standing around watching their doom approach. Even my wife thought that it was daft and she has no interest nor knowledge of military history.

There doesn't seem to have been much thought put into it and that seems to be a recurring theme.

While I thought there were some headscratching moments in this ep, none of it really compared to the Arya stuff from the previous two eps. There was some truly dumb writing involved with that.

Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.

Absolutely. The way he tried to brush away the speartips was kind of... eh. I mean, why not just use a treetrunk as a club? Hed have made short work of everything in mere seconds, possibly saving the entire army by giving them a way to break out... instead, he just... stood there. -__-

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.

Absolutely. The way he tried to brush away the speartips was kind of... eh. I mean, why not just use a treetrunk as a club? Hed have made short work of everything in mere seconds, possibly saving the entire army by giving them a way to break out... instead, he just... stood there. -__-

At the very least he should have snatched a pike away and used it to poke back at the Bolton soldiers. Imagine the reach he would have.

I think this tactical blunder on the part of the Giant is less an issue of being silly and more a CG budget issue. Having a guy in a suit perform in front of a green screen and superimpose it with live actors is one thing. Actually having the Green screen Giant interact with them in a significant way probably went way over cost. Hence no "thumping with Club" or "Stuff in pants" action Warhammer players may have hoped for.

Just because everyone was thinking it when it happened:

I honestly wasn't, but that's friggen hilarious.