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If mass bike armies become the hot shiz, wouldn't that be a terrible army to bring to a tourney. The risk of a mirror matchup that would table all the bikes on the opposing side on turn 1 would be too great. The game would be a dice roll of who goes first.

I think that, realistically, the 30 bikes at 1500 to 1850 points range is pretty reasonable. Maybe fiddled up or down as the codex unfolds and we find out how much TROOPS with a S6 gun are actually needed so that you don't go overboard and limit the rest of your force's ability to deal with... AV 13+ and T 6+ with 2+ saves.

Cause that's pretty much all they aren't good at dealing with.

Maybe some Distort Flamer Wraiths to deal with opposing Bikes that could keep up with your Bikes. Maybe some dedicated AT to deal with that High AV. Something Plasmagun-like that would let you stack wounds on the toughest of MC's. And an HQ, to tie it all together.

810 pts for 30 Bikes. Add to this another 3 units to deal with those issues, and they probably overlap some [Fire Dragons are still pretty good at killing MC, for example.] So another 200 points per unit, plus 100 for an HQ sets you at just over 1500.

Maybe 5 units of 4 will work? That trims things down considerably, freeing up 270 points, which should be enough to field another "fix" unit for whatever the bikes can't handle. I'm guessing that 1/3 to 1/2 of your points will go towards EJB w/ ScLa. The rest fills in the very few gaps, to ensure you don't get gibbled by a Land Raider or something.

Serving your BA list up piecemeal to these things will result in catastrophe. None of the elements you listed have enough dakka to make the jetbikes sweat.

They have enough shots to almost completely destroy each wave as they come in.

How would all those bikes do against a centurion star with draigo and invisibility. I imagine the cent-star drops in the center of the board. Wipe out a squad of bikes and the split fire dude wrecks another.Then receive some snap shot hits that are take on the 2+ armor and look out sir around the unit. Repeat again the next turn. WK can't be the answer as they kill that too.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
How would all those bikes do against a centurion star with draigo and invisibility. I imagine the cent-star drops in the center of the board. Wipe out a squad of bikes and the split fire dude wrecks another.Then receive some snap shot hits that are take on the 2+ armor and look out sir around the unit. Repeat again the next turn. WK can't be the answer as they kill that too.

160 shots. 160/6 hit. 800/36 wound. 800/216 fails. So 3-4 wounds. Assuming no other shooting, rerolls, etc.

Or to put it more simply each live bike does 4/6 hits 20/36 wounds 20/216 fails. Each squad you don't kill puta a wound out.

Invis does suck. Unfortunately, the cent star can only kill 2 units max a turn and with draigo and invis get pretty spendy. If probably kill everything else first.

BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

 Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

fragcannons will hurt bikes. Alot.

2 templates at str6 rending. + a heavy flamer Str5 ap4. (coming at you twice)

the melta will take care of most AT, or, if its a wraith or sort, hurt it, The preds will be in range easily, pumping out a total of 6 str7 ap4 shots, and at worst, 9 str 5 ap4 shots not snap firing, if you can move 6" and shoot that jumps to 18 shots not snap firing.

The dreads don't have to live long, if they do it's icing. Or, let your infantry come in first, then drop the frags.

(Fragnaughts are extremely good for the points in pods)

1p80 points of Orkz 0uts oit 309+ shots at str4 I don't get it.

Bring on jet bike meta, better than AV meta

 Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

I think "drop pod lists" suck if you mean, lists that use all drop pods. However, a 6x4 table isn't that big, and you have to park your 30-40 jetbikes somewhere -- since it's about half your battle force, say you have half to 2/3 of your deployment zone to spread them out. If you have SOME drop pods, a few template/bast will earn you back more than parity in points.

Since someone brought up BA -- A BA assault squad with a drop pod is only 85 points. Pick your poison and get 3 special weapons for 20-45 points (ranging from flamer to plasma). You have two choices: spend up to 130 points and send 1 drop pod, 5 marines, and 3 templates -- I guarantee you they will jink with S7AP2 templates, and figure that you'll kill at least some of them, and leave them with snapshots only the next turn. Or, you can spend double that and try to clear enough of them out to make it worth your while. Also, the ASM and drop pod present 2 separate targets.

You can also upgrade the drop pod with 15 points to a deathwind launcher, which is nothing exciting, but might be enough to convince the Eldar player to blow a turn for a unit to kill your drop pod.

I'm not trying to figure out some cure-all; I'm just saying that 2-3 drop pods landing near 30 jetbikes bunched up is going to be a legit threat, and it won't cost you a ton in points.

I think the far more effective use of bike squads is smaller units, not spammed, some squads with base weapons (because hey, un-upgraded jetbikes still rock at 17 pts a piece), some with scatter lasers, and some with shuriken cannons. Use them smartly, where it makes sense, and it will make more of an impact than its cost.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:
1p80 points of Orkz 0uts oit 309+ shots at str4 I don't get it.

Bring on jet bike meta, better than AV meta

I was trying to say this, I think, either here or the news thread -- gimme bike spam over serpent spam any day! (or until I play it and am proven wrong hahaha)

 Jayden63 wrote:
Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

5 Sicarans and a Whirlwind Scorpius with Battle of Keylek and Prescience, all inside a Void Shield Generator. Invisible bikers with Smashfether to greet anyone who gets too close. Furioso Dreadnoughts with Fragcannon + Heavy Flamer in Drop Pods.

I simply cannot wait until a jetbike apologist faces 20+ of these. It. Will. Be. Hilarious!

I TOLD YOU SO! (excellent - now I just have to link this page in the future. 2 birds 1 stone).

I'm more worried about the effect on marines, since if you're tooling up specifically to kill hoards of T4 3+ save eldar jetbike units, then marines are going to have a mad time. It's OK for marines, 'cause they can field bikes as troops (for now), but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

We've got a rhino or nothing as a dedicated transport, and I'll tell you now, it takes 4 jetbikes with scatter lasers to kill a rhino, 5 if it's popped smoke. Another unit of 4 to cause a morale check by killing 3 guys (on top of the pinning check from being forcibly disembarked from the rhino). Granted Ld 9 is not terrible while the sarge is still alive, but it's still something that happens with annoying frequency. We have exactly 3 units that can't be brutally and mercilessly annihilated by Str 6 mithout at least forcing the jetbikes to move. Our schizo Land Raider, a Vindicator (with AV 11 sides) and a Predator (also with AV 11 sides). How the hell do you propose a chaos army to counter a basic eldar army of 1 windrider host (1x farseer, 1x warlock, 3x jetbikes, 1x viper) and either a pair of seers & warlocks and/or as many wraith units as you can fit into your points limit?

Saying that there's a counter and listing Necron stuff is all well and good, but the other broken army of 7th shouldn't be held up as the shining example of hope and balance.

I'm an eldar player and I'm excited about the codex and changes to the WK (provided he is pointed up enough) but I'm worried about these bikes and how unbalanced they are going to be. I run war walkers at the moment with scatters which cost 210 points for 6 scatters - the bikes will cost 162 for the same so unless they change the walkers the internal balance is way off.

I think I will be taking 3-5 units of bikes but I will probably keep them as stock objective grabbers unless I am facing some form of mega-cheese.

What I wanted in the codex was for the rubbish eldar units to be brought up to the level of the good ones but so far the leaked buffs are all for already good units. We will need to see next Saturday but the bikes are OTT.

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

 Runic wrote:

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

The better idea is not to to be a douche and play eldar spam scatter bikes in the first place.

Yep. But you will always have those people even in this game which requires you to interact and co-operate with others to for it to be sensible. Tournaments are a different thing entirely however.

Against the beforementioned people I just sigh, smile, and bring out the big guns.

Rippy wrote:The sky is fallin'

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
The sky is fallin'

That's because it is made of jetbikes.

Threw these together

 Runic wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

I actually meant CSM. If I ally in some hounds, screamers, heralds and grimoure, why would I need the CSM? Why wouldn't I just play mono daemons?

My local doesn't allow FW, so, yeah. No ultra cheese for me. I can run screamerstar, but much like I suspect the inevitable formations of 30+ bikes and points top up wraith units, it's not fun to play against, and it's not overly fun to play, so it only comes out against Tau or Eldar where my CSM don't have a hope in hell of even being on the table past turn 4. Even then, every time I add Daemons to my CSM, I can only think, "Why am I taking CSM to fill this role? The list would be much better with less CSM and more Daemons." until I get to the point where there are no CSM in the list at all.

 Talys wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

Of course. How do you think they have jump shoot jump right now?

Also: If they didn't have battle focus and relentless, they could not JSJ scatter lasers now.

Ahhh... OK so people are arguing the effectiveness of units with people that don't know the rules... got it.

 Runic wrote:
Yep. But you will always have those people even in this game which requires you to interact and co-operate with others to for it to be sensible. Tournaments are a different thing entirely however.

Against the beforementioned people I just sigh, smile, and bring out the big guns.

You do realize that this issue is a battle forged issue. If you don't have to follow a force chart you can spam heavy weapons and death-stars already. I can think of hundreds of unbound ways to crush 50 eldar jetbikes probably spending half the points but that's not how this game is played.

I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

Hell, just 6 squads of 3 would be cool. MSU with 12 S6 shots per for 81 points! 486 points and no issues with hiding the units or having to kill other MSUs with a turn of fire. Giving the same issue back as well "Oh, noes you killed my 81 points!" lol

What that guy says:

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

I couldn't care less of what new cheese people wil lbe bringing, because my opponent rarely go over board with that at my FLGS (some do, but more often then not, it's all in good fun).

The real problem I see with those Jetbike, is that it affect ANY friendly game. I'm not talking about someone spamming bikes on purpose. I'm talking about me and my friends playing games where the balance will already be screwed at the TROOP level. Where I live, we play 1 CADS with max 1 formation or 1 ally detachement, and we favorise 3-4 Troop because we think it favorise fun game. Well it won't be as fun to know that even before turn 1, the backbone of your army (the troops) can't match the power of their backbone, and by a long shot!

I have been giving my opinion on a lot of those ''imbalance'' thread. The key, IMHO, to balance, is to compare slot per slot between army, while enforcing strict rule on CADS/Ally and such.

 Drasius wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

I actually meant CSM. If I ally in some hounds, screamers, heralds and grimoure, why would I need the CSM? Why wouldn't I just play mono daemons?

My local doesn't allow FW, so, yeah. No ultra cheese for me. I can run screamerstar, but much like I suspect the inevitable formations of 30+ bikes and points top up wraith units, it's not fun to play against, and it's not overly fun to play, so it only comes out against Tau or Eldar where my CSM don't have a hope in hell of even being on the table past turn 4. Even then, every time I add Daemons to my CSM, I can only think, "Why am I taking CSM to fill this role? The list would be much better with less CSM and more Daemons." until I get to the point where there are no CSM in the list at all.

I'd say your group limiting options in a game that is already poorly balanced is then a big factor in how you can't counter the jetbikes. These days allowing Forgeworld is infact, better for people who need options to manage. The most broken units are in the normal codices, and that's that.

And I for one aren't saying they aren't overpowered, they obviously are. But they can still be crushed nonetheless, and that's fine for me.

Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

I would say 'cheap heavy weapon'.

A better comparison is if every tactical marine got a relentless heavy bolter or assault cannon for 10 points.