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Just sayin', but OP is in fact the writer of the Craftworld Eldar codex. His avatar betrays him .

The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.

Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?

This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

WayneTheGame wrote:
The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.

Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?

This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

Couldn't agree more, if anyone is being "TFG" its those who would refuse to play an army because they claim its OP (aka they are to scared to face it, barring a few bad matchups). Let them not want to play Eldar players, chances are they will be the ones hurting to find games.

WayneTheGame wrote:
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

It literally is segregation. I saw someone in another thread suggest "Eldar-only" tournaments, where Eldar players go to play against each other, and everyone else plays in normal events where Eldar are naturally not allowed.

Gamgee: Hey Eldar player! We don't take kindly to your types around here.
Desubot: Now Gamgee, he ain't hurtin' nobody.
Gamgee: No! I wanna know something from Mr. Eldar player here. If you players are going to get broken units from Games Workshop and Forgeworld, how come you get upset when we call you out for imba?

WayneTheGame wrote:
The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.

Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?

This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

You do have a point. I am not in the ban all Eldar player camp or punish players. However, in regard to segregation isn't that what is going to happen anyway? I am have been a big supporter of only play who you want idea. Even in light of some of the crazier GW changes in the past few years nearly everything has been at least acceptable except for maybe the Revenant Titan. However, this one is really over the top. This new book is basically a buff for nearly every unit across the board for next to no penalty in cost or price for a book that was already very powerful even without WS spam. It falls way outside of the norm of what GW has been putting out. The main problem here is that GW doesn't communicate at all with their player base other than saying "everything is so cool guys buy all our games and toys". There is no statement of "hey we are taking the game in this direction, we are buffing armies for X reason here is the first one".

If you have an Ork army what are you supposed to do against Eldar bike spam that goes through your armor and murders units a turn? What about DE or BA who just came out and are nowhere near the Eldar power level? Those players are basically forced to shelf their armies for at least 2 years (when there next book gets released) if faced with something like Eldar, Decurion, and what ever comes down the pipe next.

The other side, is if you are an Eldar player no one is going to want to play your army outside your own circle of friends. It is already hard enough to find opponents at stores, with these changes a lot of players are either going to steer clear of you or rage quit the game.

Honestly, if I played Eldar I probably wouldn't buy the book right away and wait to see what happens.

GW Rules Writers: Boss, we did something very bad.
GW Boss: Did you buff Wave Serpents?
GW Rules Writers: No.
GW Boss: Did you buff the rest of the Codex?
GW Ruled Writers: Yes.
GW Boss: But you nerfed Wave Serpents?
GW Rules Writers: Uh-huh
GW Boss: All right then.

Not gonna happen. That book is going to be super bought. Its all part of the "git guud" strategy we keep hearing.

I knew a guy that used to refer to purchasing unnecessary 40k stuff as riding the dragon (if you see this...hi lol). Can they not buy the 7th book and have people except the 6th? Yes but then that money isn't going to spend itself.


Lol did you buy a bunch of serpents to adapt?
Do you now have to spend several hundred to get new stuff to adapt?
Why do you keep putting up with it?

I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.

 Rippy wrote:

kb305 wrote:
lol gw loves to troll the nerds. theyre probably reading this right now and laughing about it while saying "whatever, you'll still buy it"

When your post shows your age.
NO, no company would do this.

And I mean c'mon, that implies that GW actually takes notice of anything their customers say

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

kb305 wrote:
lol gw loves to troll the nerds. theyre probably reading this right now and laughing about it while saying "whatever, you'll still buy it"

When your post shows your age.
NO, no company would do this.

And I mean c'mon, that implies that GW actually takes notice of anything their customers say

They do an this codex shows. They know what will cause a frenzy of compulsive spending. We just want to hope this has not been researched an done intentionally. But tons of companies have done this with other products (like MMOs) so a lot of the leg work is already done. GW is just the first to do it table tops.

 Rippy wrote:
I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.

The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Now yes, spamming Jetbikes who just happen to have maxed out scatter lasers is a bit suspect, but Jetbikes alone with a variety of weapons isn't. Same with Wraiths. An all-Wraith army isn't necessarily chosen to be OP, it could just be that the player wants everything to be a Wraith unit. I know when I was considering it my army concept was no living models other than the Spiritseer, with vehicles built with closed cockpits and having wraithstones (I forget if that's what they're called) to show they were also wraith piloted.

Again: The problem with balance or lack thereof is on GW, not on the player. Someone fielding a Saim-Hann army can and should be able to field all Jetbikes, since that's their thing. If they only take scatter lasers it might be an indication that they're doing it solely for the power/cheese, but tarring and feathering anyone who takes a lot of Jetbikes with the same brush is a bit much.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.

The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Now yes, spamming Jetbikes who just happen to have maxed out scatter lasers is a bit suspect, but Jetbikes alone with a variety of weapons isn't. Same with Wraiths. An all-Wraith army isn't necessarily chosen to be OP, it could just be that the player wants everything to be a Wraith unit. I know when I was considering it my army concept was no living models other than the Spiritseer, with vehicles built with closed cockpits and having wraithstones (I forget if that's what they're called) to show they were also wraith piloted.

Again: The problem with balance or lack thereof is on GW, not on the player. Someone fielding a Saim-Hann army can and should be able to field all Jetbikes, since that's their thing. If they only take scatter lasers it might be an indication that they're doing it solely for the power/cheese, but tarring and feathering anyone who takes a lot of Jetbikes with the same brush is a bit much.

My thoughts exactly. Iyanden even got their own supplement, and now that's been invalidated by the new codex. The onus is on GW to provide relatively balanced rules for play. Fortunately, the game also encourages house rules. The community as a whole will have to adapt to the need to house-rule a lot of what the Eldar now bring to the table.

Count me signed. I don't like how gak GW treats the main fan base that actually -wants- to support them. For me, its not only about eldar. Its a something much bigger.

WayneTheGame wrote:
The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.

Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?

This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

Imagine the fun of if you just past maybe 2.5-3k with that wraith list.
I liked the sound of the background, the models, the challenge of a low count elite army. Then they decide to drop a bucket of SD next to it as I just started to mess around with some vehicles.

 Rippy wrote:
I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.

Well... I have always liked Eldar vehicles (jetbikes, grav tanks, Nightwings, Phoenixes) and have been waiting for years since we first got pics of the new Eldar jetbike to start an army based around a jetbike core, thread from 8 years ago....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/192320.page

When I saw the new jetbikes but before the rules came out I momentarily considered started the Eldar jetbike and grav tank army... but then my lack of desire to collect another 40k army kicked in and I decided against it. Reading the woefully bad rules was just the icing on the cake

One day the jetbike bug may bite again though, who knows.

How all of a sudden everyone was a fan of Whitescars?

Drunken Angel wrote:
Let me know how a ban on Eldar players works out. I doubt you will get very far and GW certainly won't give a damn. I have heard all the toys come out of the cot before. Whether its Necrons, Demons, Tau, Blood Angels... whatever. Its still just plastic spacemen war dollies. The game was never designed to be an even competitive field, not even close no matter how much people attempt to balance power levels in codexes.
Its a beer and pretzels game played by Science Fiction nerds and modellers who for some perverse reason tried to make it competitive. Who would think they can make every codex "equal" its never gonna happen wait a few months and something else will turn up.

Just because you can put an optimised army on the table doesn't mean you should. If people can't figure that out then don't play them. That part of the social contract has existed forever and is still valid. Its got nothing to do with Eldar or Necrons or whatever.

Wargame Red Dragon has over 1500 units and the developers have made the vast majority of them usable as well as every single faction. 17 factions all competitive and balanced. It is a video game, but lessons can be learned from it on how to make a balanced game. If people apply their intelligence to solve problems amazing things can be accomplished. But I guess a miniatures game with a few hundred units is just out of the question.

 MWHistorian wrote:
How all of a sudden everyone was a fan of Whitescars?

I think we need to be a little bit fair, people might genuinely have wanted to collect "whatever" but when "whatever" sucks balls on the table the motivation to buy hundreds of dollars of models and spend hundreds of hours assembling/painting them is significantly lowered compared to when "whatever" actually gives you a good chance of winning the game.

Jetbike armies are cool. I imagine there's a ton of people who like the idea of a fluffy Eldar jetbike army. Them being awesome just adds the impetus to do it.

Can't blame the players for GW's crappy rules that encourage certain armies and certain builds.

If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?

Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...

SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss

 TheKbob wrote:
If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?

Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...

SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss

This. Just wait out the storm until either A) They nerf Eldar or B) Buff your army so they can stand up to it. Personally, I'm playing Bolt Action/Black Powde.Infinity and 30k until the dumbness of Decurion and Scatterbikes are mitigated somehow.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh yeah. For the record, I haven't bought a Codex since the Chaos Marine hardback.

But if this new Eldar dex is getting people's panties in a bunch, I will be happy to buy it and play nothing but Eldar.

I have scads of Wraithguard collecting dust, and this is just the kind of excuse to break them out of retirement.

People don't tend to enjoy playing TFG.

Then maybe they should "man up" and not make ridiculous demands to ban other people's armies outright.

Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

Well, we long term Eldar players never asked for Serpent shield or Jetbikes piloted by poets and philosophers each of which given a scatter laser.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, DE always seem to do poorly against IG. I almost never beat them with my CSM's, but I don't think I've ever had a game with IG, even the crappy 3.5E codex, against DE that wasn't painfully one sided against the DE.

Yeah, it seems like with my Drop Pod Salamanders I just cream IG left and right, but any victories my DE earn against IG are won by the skin of my teeth.

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.

Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.

 Sidstyler wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"

It literally is segregation. I saw someone in another thread suggest "Eldar-only" tournaments, where Eldar players go to play against each other, and everyone else plays in normal events where Eldar are naturally not allowed.

Again, if 1 single army is clearly out of line, like say having 1 point reaver titans, do you think they should be in the same tournament with the other armies?
People already commonly ban tons of super-heavies, horus heresy armies, and sometimes forgeworld, and you don't hear a huge stink about it. Why is this different?

I personally know a guy who has An extremely well done HH army that is a whopping "meh" on the competitive aspect. (I tabled him with 40k blood angels last time we played.) Why can't he bring that army to a tourney? Why aren't people being all "well I'll just not play these people that insist on not playing against 30k marines!" about that?

Magic tournaments work great because of formats. No one complains that they can't throw down black lotuses and moxes in standard. It's already known that a vintage deck has no place in common tournaments, as it's not really fun for anyone to watch it bulldoze everyone it comes up against. It needs to play other vintage decks.

I suggested that if the eldar players wanted to be in a tourney, for the interest of both them and other army players having fun, they need to be in their own format, otherwise it's like one of those late-dragonball Z tournaments where super saiyans and joke human characters are in the same tournament. As a joke human, you'd literally only make it as far as the matchups let you, until you ran into a dbz main character and auto-lost.

 Rippy wrote:

kb305 wrote:
lol gw loves to troll the nerds. theyre probably reading this right now and laughing about it while saying "whatever, you'll still buy it"

When your post shows your age.
NO, no company would do this.

eh, except it's true. grey knights, world dragon banner and now this. like a broken record. gw thrives off nerd rage.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".

And it's not even his fault.

It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.

This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.

Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.

A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.