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 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

Well, considering the book has yet to release, it would be hard to find any sort of data on it.

Tournaments are not exactly the best source of data for 40k. They are comped heavily, with many restrictions that may not apply to your local meta. The lack of ranged D is something common, for now, at tournaments, but the new eldar codex has quite a lot of it. It's going to be hard to predict how TO's will react to this.



That being said, Eldar were winning the most with their old codex when compared to other armies. There hasn't been a lot of time since the necrons released, though it wouldn't surprise me to learn they were slightly beating the eldar with their formations.
The new eldar codex is much stronger then the old one outside of waveserpents.

The council is stronger, farseers are much better, nearly all aspect warriors are improved (why fire dragons?), scatter bikers are a thing now, wraithguard, hawks, and dragons destroy tanks...it's hard to argue the codex got weaker.
So if it was the strongest dex, arguably, before, and it got significantly better....it's easy to see why people are upset about this.
It's not like 40k has upped the power level. The necrons are very good with formations, but the skitarri aren't crazy powerful by any stretch.

At least if I go into 40k again, my Biel-Tan army is going to be amazing.

 Talys wrote:
Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

It's not my thread!


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 Accolade wrote:
I agree very strongly with Talys!

Really - it's not me! :-p

I think a great alternative to this thread is the rage quit thread. I'd rather not ban Eldar from comp play, as the players who use it will just go to another army and we will see 4 flyrants lists, draigo stars, or some other cheesy unit. Comp players jump to whatever is the best, so banning one isn't the solution.

You can do what I am doing. Just stop playing 40k. Why try to fix a game that continually breaks itself?

I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

It's not my thread!

Sorry

I think you were just the last poster. Emperor be blessed, someone fixed it

Haha, no worries.

cm32 wrote:
I think a great alternative to this thread is the rage quit thread.

This.

GW doesn't care and won't change without a massive drop in sales, and they've found that raising the bar spurs sales. Expecting them to change their proven successful business practices is insanity.

If you can't handle the way that GW does business, stop doing business with them, and just get out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

THANK you. Nice to know someone still understands that people don't become not people the instant they pull a pointy-eared model out of their figure case.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

It's called deductive logic based on information provided by people that have seen and posted pics from the Eldar codex via the internet.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

THANK you. Nice to know someone still understands that people don't become not people the instant they pull a pointy-eared model out of their figure case.

Very true. However on the flip side of the coin, there are also people who don't understand those who think they won't have fun against even slightly competitive Eldar lists.
I honestly reckon that if all the reliable rumours are true that Eldar will be incredibly broken, but that won't be the eldar player bases fault. So we need to find a solution. Some believe quitting is a solution, and I have to respect them for that view because I'm pretty close myself with a lot of the gak GW do (but ebay has saved me). There are others like TheNewBlood who advocate that eldar players must try to be sporsmenlike and try to shy away from the uber cheese (my words), which again, I respect. The issue with this is for pick up games and eldar players who refuse to. There are those who believe the major TO's will moderate it themselves. Yet others believe we will be able to affect GW as a customer base (hence my asking about emailing them). And there are some who cannot actually see the extent of the brokenness yet. I think this last point is as extreme as quitting or banning eldar players, as it is just outright denial - and if these players 'claim' that it's not broken then they aren't going to be sportsmenlike about it as TheNewBlood suggests. It's like that infamous dakka wave serpent apologist who we all know (name begins with an M ;-)), who always went on any thread that had even the smallest significance to the WS to then proceed to derail it and preach about how overcosted and ineffective they were... imagine what he's going to be like with these jetbikes!

The Eldar were always a little overpowered, especially for the mid-experience curve. That is, they have had great tools to allow mediocre players to overperform.

Unlike, for example, space Marines, they have never really had the best tools for veteran and star players to really shine. In our local scene. Eldar players typically win 85% of the games versus 85% of the players, not including Decurion, a relatively new thing that also lets players overperform. The problem is, these same Eldar players also lose 85% of the games against the other 15% of players who know what they're doing and understand Eldar limitations.

I'm not trying to defend the undercosting or availability of 36" weapons to troops; I'm just saying that until experienced players actually play and adjust to the new codex, whether the changes are in fact as awesome as they seem remains to be seen.

I'm also not a bog fan of Necron and Eldar being easier to play than other factions, even before this codex, though it has the side benefit of allowing me to recommend the faction to someone who is starting out.

I think the real issue here is not so much the army itself (to me Elderp have always been a pain) but more with the power cheese units. I love an uphill battle against eldar especially with my orks but the real problem is that this codex can produce a list that certain armies cannot beat regardless of their list. I'd still play Elderp but only certain lists. No reason to be extreme about it. And on another note any (sane) tournament organizer would ban certain lists like this. If I am not mistaken every list has to be approved before the competition. Only a pants on head stupid organizer would allow that stuff in. There is a distinct difference between a list like this where it is strong because the units are too powerful or where it is strong but the units are expensive as well(Grey Knights) The fact is that 100+ S6 shots in under 1000 points is insane to name one example.

On a very different note the wraithlords or whatever the big cheese is can be ignored (aside from bike spam). Some poeple can't help themselves from just firing random shots into it in hopes of getting a few wounds. Just focus your shots elsewhere. A lone wraithknight or lord or a handfull of wraithguard on an otherwise empty table is easy to ignore and can only do so much damage a turn. Also for competitive play just tweak the lists a little to be more anti T4 to deal with bikes. (better off just ignoring T8 monsters unless you like bringing Grav guns)

That is just my two cents. Don't refuse outright but ask your opponent if they try to bring "that list". Odds are if they don't want to adjust their list even a little then i wasn't going to be a fun or good game regardless of what they brought and you will be several hours richer for your trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also why are they getting another damn codex?!?! How exactly is that fair, feth fair how is that even reasonable when there are crap codexes still out there: Tyranids, CSM, SoB

I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice. I experienced this back in 3rd because I play Blood Angels, Even though I was never accused of being one of the WAAC guys, I still got to hear the rants about all of the crimes committed by my fellow BA players with a nice little "But your not like that" while I played my games. The turning point for me was when the whole store 12+ guys worked themselves into a frenzy and neutered my codex into nothing for the store's house rules going forward. Fortunately the "Bad" BA player wasn't there otherwise he might have gotten lynched. I stopped playing them for several years after that.

I understand both sides here. This doesn't have anything to do with being on the internet or Dakka, it is simply human nature to fear/hate what is perceived as unfair and to lash out at it. It doesn't help when the makers don't give a crap, and you have a bunch of cheesedicks stirring the pot with GTFO if you don't like it. The 40k community suffers when this stuff happens and invariably gets smaller and meaner.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I think the real issue here is not so much the army itself (to me Elderp have always been a pain) but more with the power cheese units. I love an uphill battle against eldar especially with my orks but the real problem is that this codex can produce a list that certain armies cannot beat regardless of their list.

This actually conflates two separate issues, because one problem with 40k is that some codices are just plain too weak. I would definitely put Orks and Tyranids -- absent their ONE great, spammable model -- there.

There are factions that have some neat tricks, but overall just don't have the depth and tools.

Then again, as I've said for decades now, anyone looking for "balance" in the normal sense of the word out of 40k factions will be sorely disappointed, hehehe. Live with it, fix it yourself, play around it, or of course, look for something else to do... Just don't expect that there will ever be a set of nearly balanced factions out of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice. I experienced this back in 3rd because I play Blood Angels, Even though I was never accused of being one of the WAAC guys, I still got to hear the rants about all of the crimes committed by my fellow BA players with a nice little "But your not like that" while I played my games. The turning point for me was when the whole store 12+ guys worked themselves into a frenzy and neutered my codex into nothing for the store's house rules going forward. Fortunately the "Bad" BA player wasn't there otherwise he might have gotten lynched. I stopped playing them for several years after that.

I understand both sides here. This doesn't have anything to do with being on the internet or Dakka, it is simply human nature to fear/hate what is perceived as unfair and to lash out at it. It doesn't help when the makers don't give a crap, and you have a bunch of cheesedicks stirring the pot with GTFO if you don't like it. The 40k community suffers when this stuff happens and invariably gets smaller and meaner.

I don't understand fear or hate at all. It's just a game -- figure it out with the other guy, or don't play, right? If you know you can't win, there is no point in playing, and the other player should recognize this too (and try to do something about it). Besides, fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering. ;D

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice.

One of my friends has played a fluffy Iyanden, Saim-Hann alliance for years. He has a huge collection of painted models. Whenever the new codex comes up in a conversation, he stops smiling.

We all know that he is very fluffy and is a cool guy, but he is still going to get gak from any local competition or new player.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

And so it will go from

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening" to

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Remember:

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening"

keep reciting it and ignore the evidence - you know it makes no sense...............

@MWHistorian -- even with invisible centstars needed, the tournament scene may disagree with you that Eldar are the most powerful faction. They don't dominate anything, much less consistently.

Just because they are easier to play doesn't make theme the mist powerful.

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Eldar haven't been topping tourneys for a while, when was the last time they were in 1st? The last few have been Nids (who are seen as a mid to low tier codex but still perform well, albeit with a monobuild), Scout Marines, Daemons, etc.

Eldar are good, and Wave Serpents are frelling dumb for what they are. But people *gasp* learned to deal with them, and the changing game made them not as terrifying as they were previously. The new codex is a magnitude stronger than the current 6th ed one, but that doesn't mean that the second it comes out it's going to win everything. And even if it does, that doesn't mean it will continue to do so forever.

 Talys wrote:
The Eldar were always a little overpowered, especially for the mid-experience curve. That is, they have had great tools to allow mediocre players to overperform.

Unlike, for example, space Marines, they have never really had the best tools for veteran and star players to really shine. In our local scene. Eldar players typically win 85% of the games versus 85% of the players, not including Decurion, a relatively new thing that also lets players overperform. The problem is, these same Eldar players also lose 85% of the games against the other 15% of players who know what they're doing and understand Eldar limitations.

I'm not trying to defend the undercosting or availability of 36" weapons to troops; I'm just saying that until experienced players actually play and adjust to the new codex, whether the changes are in fact as awesome as they seem remains to be seen.

I'm also not a bog fan of Necron and Eldar being easier to play than other factions, even before this codex, though it has the side benefit of allowing me to recommend the faction to someone who is starting out.

Emphasis mine... Now, admittedly, I didn't start playing 40k until the 3rd edition re-boot, but throughout all these years I've seen & had to try to deal with Eldar excesses that included;
1. Starcannon spam.
A 36" range, S6/ap2 Heavy 3 weapon that could be spammed ad nausium across 5-man Guardian Squads, War Walkers, Vypers, Falcons, Wraithlords, Wave Serpents et all... at a time when Marine armies were lucky to get maybe 40-50 models on the table.

Also at this time, certain power weapon toting Exarchs could buy an ability called Sustained Assault. It typically led to near-endlessly chaining attacks until the Exarch in question finally failed to hit.
It was considered perfectly "normal" for this single model to wipe out entire units of 10+ Space Marines, to 30+ Orks/Gaunts, since he also always tended to Guide up on that model as well... and back when all power toys were across the board 'no armour saves allowed.'
I once had a single Assault Squad of 6 dudes suffer a total of 54 hits!

2. Alaitoc Ranger list & Disruption table.
Eldar were the first army in 3rd to gain easy access to 2++ cover saves. They also got super snipers who essentially had ATSKNF, could always re-group and never had to take 'All on Your Own' tests...
Then they got the Ranger Disruption Table which got a roll for each unit of Rangers + Pathfinders in the army:
1. No effect
2. A random enemy unit on the table is taken off & must start the game in reserves instead
3. A random enemy units on the table starts the battle pinned. (unless unit is immune to pinning)
4. An enemy unit on the table chosen by the Eldar player is taken off and starts in reserves
5. An enemy unit chosen by the Eldar player starts the game pinned
6. The Ranger or Pathfinders may shoot one enemy unit chosen by the Eldar player, regardless of line of sight or range before the battle begins.

And if you min/maxed your Rangers/Pathfinders, you could upto 9 times on this table!! I can recall more than once that this table alone would outright win the game for the Eldar player.

3. Biel-Tan Swordwind
Aspects were the best parts of the Eldar infantry in 3rd & early 4th. Now you could take them as Troops. Plus they got take an entire unit of 3-5 DA/Fire Dragon/Banshee/Scorpion Exarchs in any combination as an HQ choice.

4. Ulthwe Seer Congress
Not only did Ulthwe armies get BS4 for the seemingly mandatory 5-man Starcannon platforms for no added cost, but now they could also take a unit of 2-5 Farseers + unlimited Warlocks, at a time when Psychic counters were simply non-existent!
Plus they also got the new 5pts Augment Warlock power which would double the range of all those Mind Wars, Fortunes & Guides that the Farseers were tossing about...
Grey Knights kinda laughed in the end due to being the only army that could invuln save ignoring wargear, but overall, no one else could dent a re-rolled 4++ save unit of 40-50+ models. (of which a 1/3 would be wielding Witchblades/Singing Spears!)

5. Flying Circus & Holofield Fire Prisms
The dirty list of mid to late 4th edition... Avoidancehammer at it's most obnoxious, as the Falcons and/or Prisms would shoot, then duck back behind cover. If you ever did manage to get shots off on them, it took an ungodly amount of firepower to get through the Holofields.
Once the Harlie models became widely available, you then had units which would tear up most anything in combat with high WS & I rending attacks, coupled with an unblockable auto-pass psy power that made it almost impossible to shoot the unit down unless you could get within about 6" or so of them!

6. Serpent Spam.
The only really, really obnoxious bit of the 6th ed book honestly... Massed Wave Serpents toting Scatter Lasers for the Laser-lock rule coupled with the shield's shooting attack. Remove the Scatlas though, and the Serpent wasn't nearly quite as obnoxious.
Wraithknights thus far have really seemed more like a fire magnet that simply tanks damage rather than a super OP unit. (at least, my LoC loves currently smacking the things around!)

7. New Scatlas Jetbikes & massed range Str.D
I still don't think the bikes will quite as bad as what is being made of them right now honestly... they're still horribly vulnerable to any kind of Alpha Strike, plus Barrage weapons like Wyverns, Thunderfire Cannons and their ilk will make a huge mess of larger units of the things.
Massed range Str.D could easily become problematic, especially to those who typically rely on lots of MC's such as Tyranids & Daemons, or heavy armour like IG. But still, if the Wraithcannons are still just 12", they're still stuck being expensive suicide units, while D weapon batteries can be nuked by cheap Deep Strikers or other fast moving units.
Gargantuan Creature Wraithknights however look terrifyingly good for only 295pts base!



So overall, from the perspective of what Eldar used to pull in 3rd ed and early 4th, it actually seems like they're getting fewer cheesy antics overall... Back in 3rd, I never had fun against Eldar. Anything my army could do, Eldar did 100x better. Unless a list was based heavily around Guardians with only a couple 'not Guardian' units, it felt like I never had much of a chance in any game.

The Craftworld codex was the absolute peak of Eldar's total & utter domination of the 40k gaming scene. Nothing, not even the most broken aspects of the vaunted 3.5 Chaos codex could lay a finger on the levels of gouda an Eldar player could pull.
At one point when GW actively led & supported a tournament scene, Eldar during one year in the US had over 90 event wins!! Space Wolves were a distant 2nd with barely over 30 wins...

So sure, let the Eldar have their cheapie-cheap Scatlas Bikes and ranged Str.D weapons. At least they're no longer auto-winning at deployment, or laying down 80 man Seer congresses, or spamming high rate of fire S6/ap2 guns, or blenderising entire units in combat without breaking a sweat, etc...

The ITC results indicate that Eldar consistently make it to top tables, and have won the most top armies in that circuit.

Its not total evidence, but it also disagrees with your assertion. Eldar were a really strong book, as a primary faction and as an allied faction, and many tournaments have reported this.

The new book is a near universal buff, so it would be logical to assume that Eldar will remain one of the top books.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Remember:

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening"

keep reciting it and ignore the evidence - you know it makes no sense...............

To MWH Historian, Eldar haven't been "the strongest dex" for a little while now, they've really been sharing that title with a few other dexes for the last year or so.

And to both of you, Pictures of rules and theoretical math are not empirical evidence, for that you need actual scientific method to play out and reality tends to screw with such things. I'm not going to apologize for waiting to actually play a game against Eldar before I come to the conclusion that they must be banished from all tournament tables to satisfy people who's eyes are bugging out about 160 Str 6 shots. Feel free to jump to as many conclusions as you want, I'll wait for actual gameplay evidence, thank you very much. Maybe I'll be singing a different tune after that, but not before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
The new book is a near universal buff, so it would be logical to assume that Eldar will remain one of the top books.

Don't believe anyone's disputing that, but being a top book isn't good enough reason to ban them from all competitive play.

No, and I think banning them entirely is also a little rash, but modified certainly. Scatter lasers on bikes being a 1 in 3 option would do wonders, and/or bumping the price to 15ish pts per laser. Things like that would be more sensible. Sort of an unofficial FAQ.

 Blacksails wrote:
No, and I think banning them entirely is also a little rash, but modified certainly. Scatter lasers on bikes being a 1 in 3 option would do wonders, and/or bumping the price to 15ish pts per laser. Things like that would be more sensible. Sort of an unofficial FAQ.

don't think TO's would start messing with points cost, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them tested the waters with 1 in 3 for bikes. I believe ITC has already announced that they will continue to limit all LoW's to one per army, which is sensible and would put the WK in check.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if a large tournament scene messed with the points cost. Might pave the way for other projects to try and balance the game. No one will 100% agree on the changes, but we won't get anywhere unless someone starts, and there's no better place than in the hands of competitive players at large tournaments.

But that's a whole different discussion.

Point is the new dex is broken, but banning it entirely is a non-starter.

A general ruling of 'no D weapons on anything but super heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures' would also silence a lot of the complaints.

Though I still can't see the difference between a squad with strength 10 meltas and strength D guns. They will both kill whatever tank they fire at and then be wiped out in the next turn by return fire. The only thing that this might affect are knights, and those need a good kicking anyways.