New Adeptus Astartes - Page #46 Chaplain and Libby

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**Anpu42**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's see how many of you would wine and complain about every Chapter getting their own codex.....

Cash grab! Now I have to buy 9 books! GW is ruining my life!

Or let's not.

They are only 6 away.

**Gitsplitta**

I've been playing 40k since the RT days and for 25 years we've been complaining bitterly about GW not supporting the fluff with rules and the codecii with models. Now that they're finally doing that... we're complaining about that too. Now I fully understand the frustration about the too-soon-replaced codecii. I have a still in plastic wrap Inyaden codex sitting on my shelf that is now worthless... but at some point, I've got to give them credit for doing what people have been griping about for decades. Yes, it's a money grab... but they are a for-profit business. Technically everything they do should generate capitol or it's not worth doing in the first place.

And no... I'm not a GW apologist... I've complained about them as strongly as anyone. This I think... I can handle though. It's better than the abject neglect that has so often typified GW's approach to 40k.

**Crimson Devil**

455_PWR wrote:
These codex books and supplements are getting out of hand. DA, BA, and SW are unique enough with rules, deviations, and models that they deserve their own book.

White scars, salamanders, iron hands, adventures, don't deviate from the codex astartes and are known only for being specialized in one area that all other armies have access to as well. I hope they keep the codex as is where a character gives you more heavies (imperial fists), fast attack units or abilities (raven guard, white scars, etc). Why make more codex books when some armies are basically copy in others in the firat place (Ravenwing was here long before white scars had anything besides a different painted job).

I can understand Templars getting their own book as thwy deviate a bit. If anything they ahould make a codex forgeworld which has official updated differentiated rules for carcharodons, minotaurs, and red scorpions... now that would be cool!!

GW keep it simple. I don't want a frikin library of books that are outdated in a years time.

Actually, White Scars, Salamanders, and Iron Hands deviated further for the Codex Astartes than the Blood Angels during 3.5 and 4th ed. Those chapters being adherent came with the 5th ed book, same time the BA and DA got further from it.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

insaniak wrote:
Giving vehicles armour saves is another.

How many weapon without AP2 or at least AP3 are a threat to your vehicles? Maybe grenades in close combat?

**Mymearan**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Giving vehicles armour saves is another.

How many weapon without AP2 or at least AP3 are a threat to your vehicles? Maybe grenades in close combat?

AP isn't that important when you have masses of S6/7 weapons to glance anything short of a land raider to death in one turn.

**Fayric**

Perhaps you could just give your dreads a stormshield?
Oh, sorry , you dont play Space Wolfs

(didnt do them a whole lot of good tough? Or do people use shield dreads with SW?)

And obviously, the ones that want dreads to be MC also want them to be T7 and have a 2+ 5++,or there would be no end to the outrage.

**insaniak**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Giving vehicles armour saves is another.

How many weapon without AP2 or at least AP3 are a threat to your vehicles? Maybe grenades in close combat?

Anything strength 4 or higher?

You only need to match armour 10 on most vehicles in order to glance them to death.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

insaniak wrote:
You only need to match armour 10 on most vehicles in order to glance them to death.

In close combat then. Because most vehicles have more than AV10 on front and side.
I might be biased though, because I rely mostly if not entirely on melta for my anti-tank needs. So I guess armor save for vehicles would actually favor me quite a bit.

**Erik_Morkai**

More on topic, I think the release data is wrong. Isn't WHFB 9th ed already scheduled for June 13th? Two big releases on the very same day? Not convinced. July or August maybe but not June.

Time will tell I suppose.

**Fayric**

insaniak wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Giving vehicles armour saves is another.

How many weapon without AP2 or at least AP3 are a threat to your vehicles? Maybe grenades in close combat?

Anything strength 4 or higher?

You only need to match armour 10 on most vehicles in order to glance them to death.

If we are still talking about dreads, its a 100p unit. If you want more durable machines you better be ready to pay closer to 300points for them.
A Blood thirster can be shot down by anything with S3, dont have the fire power or S10 of the dread, cant take drop pods -but yay! have a precious 3+ armour totaly worth the point difference to dreads.
Anyway, we shall see how the new mechanicum robots do; they ought to aproximate what people who like MC Dreads expect right?

**Mr Morden**

Fayric wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Giving vehicles armour saves is another.

How many weapon without AP2 or at least AP3 are a threat to your vehicles? Maybe grenades in close combat?

Anything strength 4 or higher?

You only need to match armour 10 on most vehicles in order to glance them to death.

If we are still talking about dreads, its a 100p unit. If you want more durable machines you better be ready to pay closer to 300points for them.
A Blood thirster can be shot down by anything with S3, dont have the fire power or S10 of the dread, cant take drop pods -but yay! have a precious 3+ armour totaly worth the point difference to dreads.
Anyway, we shall see how the new mechanicum robots do; they ought to aproximate what people who like MC Dreads expect right?

Wraith Knight with very high T, 3+ armour save, Feel no pain, poison nerfed against it is how much now?
Rip Tide with 2+ Armour save, 5++ / 3++, is how much now?

The main issue with Walkers vs M Creatures is that for some bizarre reason whilst you can blow limbs/ weapons off both - it only actually matters for walkers / vehicles that have to suffer by rolling on the table and possibly killed by one shots.

**kronk**

Talys wrote:
Desubot wrote:
kronk wrote:
Roll all of the Space Marines into one codex and make supplements for the special snow flakes. That includes Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels.

And for God's sake, make Dreadnoughts into Monstrous Creatures so that we can use the damn things!

Please yes

Though what are the chances the whole set is just going to be rehashed again next year.

Grey Knights are missing from that list

I think of the Grey Knights as part of the Inquisition, and their codex should have freaking Inquisition in it!

Along with Ordo Xenos, etc, assassins, etc, and so on.

**warboss**

kronk wrote:

I think of the Grey Knights as part of the Inquisition, and their codex should have freaking Inquisition in it! Along with Ordo Xenos, etc, assassins, etc, and so on.

You can just take that 3rd edition style thinking back with you to the early millenium! Go back to your fanciful world of =I= militant arm codex books with actual =I= in them along with Lord of the Rings minis that weren't priced at their weight in ambergris. If you want to play 40k now, you'll just have to get used to the wonderful world of piecemeal pricing ala the discount airlines and bad video games. Off with you and take your wretched interest in non-core games like Necromunda and Epic with you!

**ultimentra**

Gitsplitta wrote:
I've been playing 40k since the RT days and for 25 years we've been complaining bitterly about GW not supporting the fluff with rules and the codecii with models. Now that they're finally doing that... we're complaining about that too. Now I fully understand the frustration about the too-soon-replaced codecii. I have a still in plastic wrap Inyaden codex sitting on my shelf that is now worthless... but at some point, I've got to give them credit for doing what people have been griping about for decades. Yes, it's a money grab... but they are a for-profit business. Technically everything they do should generate capitol or it's not worth doing in the first place.

And no... I'm not a GW apologist... I've complained about them as strongly as anyone. This I think... I can handle though. It's better than the abject neglect that has so often typified GW's approach to 40k.

Hey bro, if its really still in the plastic wrap you can actually return it...

**Henshini**

I would love to see dreadnoughts as MCs. It's hard to say what values they should have though, since there doesn't seem to be a costing formula any more.

As someone who started in 2nd ed, it was weird seeing wraithlords and carnifexes become gradually more durable than the dreadnoughts that they were rules wise nearly identical to at first.

**Gitsplitta**

ultimentra wrote:
Hey bro, if its really still in the plastic wrap you can actually return it...

Is that only if I purchased it from an actual GW store? I bought my copy from an independent retailer (we don't have official GW stores around here).

**insaniak**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

In close combat then. Because most vehicles have more than AV10 on front and side.

I believe you can also shoot vehicles from the back.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

You can, but how often does it actually happen ?

**insaniak**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You can, but how often does it actually happen ?

With outflanking/deep striking/fast moving units/objective missions/having an opponent who knows what they are doing?

Quite a lot.

**lustigjh**

Colpicklejar wrote:
You know I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no other faction will get D weapons, at least not in the abundance that Eldar have. It's just a feeling I have in my bones.

I agree. It seems like the D weapons were less power creep than fluffing the army. Necrons got near invincibility (poorly balanced). Khorn got Blood Tithe. Skitarii got strange weaponry. Eldar got high tech weaponry (also poorly balanced). I'm hoping the new SM Codex will be similarly fluffy but also balanced.

**KingmanHighborn**

Gitsplitta you can always trade it or give it away. Some of us would like to have it just for the artwork and fluff.

**Gitsplitta**

Heh, I'll keep that in mind Kingman...

**Therion**

Henshini wrote:
I would love to see dreadnoughts as MCs. It's hard to say what values they should have though, since there doesn't seem to be a costing formula any more.

As someone who started in 2nd ed, it was weird seeing wraithlords and carnifexes become gradually more durable than the dreadnoughts that they were rules wise nearly identical to at first.

T7 W3 3+, and about 100 points + guns. Alternatively T6 W3 2+. The latter makes more sense background wise, since infantry with 'Tactical Dreadnought armor' have a 2+ save too. The Wraithlord and the Carnifex are the best cost comparisons.

It's worth noting that people generally don't consider Wraithlords or Carnifexes very good.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

I've been working on the algorithms for monstrous creatures and vehicles for a while now, armor 12/12/10 would be roughly equivalent points wise to a toughness 5 2+ save or toughness 6 3+ save monstrous creature.

The toughness + 6.5 equals the armor range equivalent, then the higher the save, the more facings (points wise) have the higher value. So with the dreadnaught, you have 12 as the highest armor value, meaning toughness 6. Then three sides share that defense, so 3+ save. The rear armor being 10 means the monstrous creature version would save 5 points versus the walker version,making it slightly more cost effective.

I would probably have the monster design rules done (like the vehicle design rules linked in my SIG) but there are so few monstrous creatures without a pile of special rules to use as a baseline...

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's see how many of you would wine and complain about every Chapter getting their own codex.....

Cash grab! Now I have to buy 9 books! GW is ruining my life!

Or let's not.

I wouldn't. I only play/collect one Chapter. I only want one Codex. Raven Guard.

**lustigjh**

En Excelsis wrote:

Wouldn't it be amazing if each of the 9 original chapters had their own book - detailing not only them but their successors?

And with 1000 pages of fluff, each dedicated to getting to know every individual marine on a personal level!

SM get enough attention already. We need less SM codices, not more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nightlord1987 wrote:
*Insert Chaos Legions rant*

This is basically the proper response to every post wishing for some special snowflake character, piece of wargear, new vehicle variant, chapter tactic, elite unit, chapter specific codex, etc.

**sonofruss**

Zewrath wrote:
Whiskey144 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
A flawed idea, as all the loyalist chapters are descended from the 9 loyalist legions.

Not strictly true; there's some hints that certain Loyalist chapters are actually descended from loyal members of the Traitor legions, or were founded using leftover gene-seed from the Traitor Legions that was kept on Mars/Terra. Some particular examples include:

-Blood Ravens: unknown, but a few hints that they may be Thousand Sons descendants
-Silver Skulls: possibly descended from loyal Iron Warriors, particularly given the chapter culture's "deviation" from that of their supposed primogenitors, the Ultramarines
-Carcharadons: possibly Night Lords descendants, though this one is very shaky; definitely "unknown" primogenitor status, though
-Minotaurs: might be World Eaters descendants, but again, all records are either nonexistent, expunged, or otherwise sealed
-Red Scorpions: might be Emperor's Children descendants. They claim that their geneseed is the purest, and it just so happens that the Emperor's Children had the purest geneseed...

So, yeah. Definitely some odd happenings, and quite a few chapters that have unknown founders that may in fact be Traitor derived. Personally I think that's pretty cool, that there are a few loyalist chapters that have a heritage with the Traitor Legions, because it does bring up the fact that not everybody wanted to go along with the Heresy in the Traitor Legions (though most were killed in the virus bombings of Istvaan III).

Erh.. I'm pretty sure it's stated that the Carcharadons are descended from Raven Guard, especially since their skin is pale and their eyes are black.
Red Scorpions never had any records ever stating that they were descended from any traitor legion and IIRC there's historical records that indicates Red Scorpions as a loyalist founded chapter as early as 33 MK.
Also, why would Minotuars be World Eaters descendants? Because they favor melee combat? I'm not strong on the fluff on Minotaurs but if that's the reason then the Blood Angels would honestly make for much better candidates, especially if you removed the part with Sanguinius and replaced everything blood related and replaced it with 'Khorne'.

Forge World says the Minotaur's are descended from the Iron Hands. and the loyalist from the fallen Legions ether repainted their armor back to pre-founding colors joined the soon to be Grey Knights (ones with a Psy ability) or where folded in to loyalist chapters.

**Vector Strike**

Therion wrote:
Henshini wrote:
I would love to see dreadnoughts as MCs. It's hard to say what values they should have though, since there doesn't seem to be a costing formula any more.

As someone who started in 2nd ed, it was weird seeing wraithlords and carnifexes become gradually more durable than the dreadnoughts that they were rules wise nearly identical to at first.

T7 W3 3+, and about 100 points + guns. Alternatively T6 W3 2+. The latter makes more sense background wise, since infantry with 'Tactical Dreadnought armor' have a 2+ save too. The Wraithlord and the Carnifex are the best cost comparisons.

It's worth noting that people generally don't consider Wraithlords or Carnifexes very good.

Talos have T7 W3 3+. It'd be the closest thing to a organic Dreadnought

**CalgarsPimpHand**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I've been working on the algorithms for monstrous creatures and vehicles for a while now, armor 12/12/10 would be roughly equivalent points wise to a toughness 5 2+ save or toughness 6 3+ save monstrous creature.

Not to totally derail this thread, but.. you're kidding, right? Armor 12 is almost identical to Toughness 8. A S8 weapon glances/pens AV12 on a 4+ and wounds T8 on a 4+. The straight conversion of AV to T is to subtract 4 from AV. I could see it going one point of toughness lower to make up for the armor save that gets added and the loss of the vehicle damage table, but not three points of toughness lower.

Your proposed dreadnought is losing a hull point to a plasma gun on a 2+, whereas before it took a 5+ to glance. It's a centurion with one more wound. You're so far off the mark it isn't even funny.

**Kirasu**

Vector Strike wrote:
Therion wrote:
Henshini wrote:
I would love to see dreadnoughts as MCs. It's hard to say what values they should have though, since there doesn't seem to be a costing formula any more.

As someone who started in 2nd ed, it was weird seeing wraithlords and carnifexes become gradually more durable than the dreadnoughts that they were rules wise nearly identical to at first.

T7 W3 3+, and about 100 points + guns. Alternatively T6 W3 2+. The latter makes more sense background wise, since infantry with 'Tactical Dreadnought armor' have a 2+ save too. The Wraithlord and the Carnifex are the best cost comparisons.

It's worth noting that people generally don't consider Wraithlords or Carnifexes very good.

Talos have T7 W3 3+. It'd be the closest thing to a organic Dreadnought

T6 and 7 is still very weak for a walker. In equivalent armor values, T6 is AV 9/10 and T7 is 10/11. Ironclads would have to be T9 to equal their current armor of 13. It's why I don't get why so many complain about wraithlords when its actually weaker than AV12. The main issue is the lack of armor saves for vehicles and "instant death" from a single pen.