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GW's translated rules always have bugs. I wait for the english book to read the original rules. These bugs are sometimes huge, the german ObSec rule differs from the english one for example due to a bad translation.

Flyers must always start in reserve and the rulebook states "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to
move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game
begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a
Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed
on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule)" So if you take the ravenwing formation you ll have to put all your units in reserves
cause flyers cant move out of reserves and with "strike as one" all the formation units must be deployed together. So if you take only the ravenwing formation and flyers
in it, you auto loose cause of no units on the table turn one.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
I know I am jumping into this debate late, but can someone explain to me what the issue is? Are you saying generic HQ choices can't take bikes or just they don't have the special ravenwing rule? Does every unit in the ravenwing strike force thing have to have the ravenwing rule?

I'm going to be really agitated if I can't run 3 lvl 2 librarians on telepathy to make my bikes with a 2+ re-roll cover save.

Is it confirmed that our bikes have access to grav?

Up to two Ravenwing Bikers may take one item each from the Special Weapons list.
Special Weapons: Flamer (5), Melter (10), Grav (15) and Plasma Guns (15)

And yes, the Ravenwing Strike Force has a single restriction:
"All units of this detachment must have the Ravenwing special rule (see page 148)" (translated)

For completeness sake: None of the generic HQs have the Ravenwing rule - and although they do have the option to take a Space Marine Bike, the entry for Space Marine Bike does NOT grant the Ravenwing special rule.

lonewolf81 wrote:
Flyers must always start in reserve and the rulebook states "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to
move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game
begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a
Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed
on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule)" So if you take the ravenwing formation you ll have to put all your units in reserves
cause flyers cant move out of reserves and with "strike as one" all the formation units must be deployed together. So if you take only the ravenwing formation and flyers
in it, you auto loose cause of no units on the table turn one.

This is getting ridiculous.
No flyers because that is an autoloss?
That means you cannot pair DW with Flyers outside a CAD and the Lion's Blade.

Let me get this straight.
If you run RWSF with a flyer, you loose.
If you run a DWSF, you loose.
If you run a DWSF with a RWSF and a flyer, you loose.

Seriously?

Has the Librarian datasheet entry been translated?

Let's not get our bathrobes in a bind here just yet....

There goes my excitement... I'm sure it will be changed, but what else have they messed up?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Has the Librarian datasheet entry been translated?

Let's not get our bathrobes in a bind here just yet....

Yes. May take a bike for 20 pts. No mention of Ravenwing. The Ravenwing rule doesn't state anything either.
If there is not something we didn't see yet, this is close to unplayable outside The Lion's Blade/CAD.

Have we seen a scan for the Ravenwing rule (pg 148)? There has to be a way to get an HQ that isn't Sammael.

All of this can be house ruled though about the IC's not having the ravenwing rule. Its foolish to assume that you cant take libbys and chaplains with ravenwing. NOW I would assume that no company master may take a bike or tda because its just not fluffy and they could not in the last book. There is only one company master for the 1st and 2nd company. So RAW now as far as we know it is not allowed but clearly it is not RAI. For organized play this is what needs to be shown to TO’s so that it can be one of MANY MANY changes they do in rules packs for tournaments. Also just house rule this, I highly doubt anyone you can play would not gripe about this and if they do you shouldn’t game with them anyway.

 Thairne wrote:

lonewolf81 wrote:
Flyers must always start in reserve and the rulebook states "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to
move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game
begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a
Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed
on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule)" So if you take the ravenwing formation you ll have to put all your units in reserves
cause flyers cant move out of reserves and with "strike as one" all the formation units must be deployed together. So if you take only the ravenwing formation and flyers
in it, you auto loose cause of no units on the table turn one.

This is getting ridiculous.
No flyers because that is an autoloss?
That means you cannot pair DW with Flyers outside a CAD and the Lion's Blade.

Let me get this straight.
If you run RWSF with a flyer, you loose.
If you run a DWSF, you loose.
If you run a DWSF with a RWSF and a flyer, you loose.

Seriously?

The only possible loophole for the RW Strike Force I can see is that the rule reads "either put everything in reserves and arrive at start of turn 2 OR deploy as usual". That'd mean that you can deploy your regular forces in turn 1 and your flyers go to reserves "as usual". But let's wait for the English wording before we loose our gak over this.

makes me glad my group doesn't play with flyers, lol.

There may be some deployment errors and I wouldn't put it past GW, and it may well be impossible to play pure DW or RW forces without some form of mix and match. That would be a sad change and I could understand others frustrations with GW regarding this.
I just know that in 5 days I will have my grubby hands on the book to enjoy my Saturday evening.

A CAD is looking more and more likely for me... this detachment foolishness is too restrictive.

I am so disappointed that people don't just outright ban formations and detachments. They are just GW rewarding you for being a good consumer and buying large amounts of certain kits.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
A CAD is looking more and more likely for me... this detachment foolishness is too restrictive.

I am so disappointed that people don't just outright ban formations and detachments. They are just GW rewarding you for being a good consumer and buying large amounts of certain kits.

it took you this long to see that?

 Commissar Merces wrote:
A CAD is looking more and more likely for me... this detachment foolishness is too restrictive.

I am so disappointed that people don't just outright ban formations and detachments. They are just GW rewarding you for being a good consumer and buying large amounts of certain kits.

This also, is why I'm so upset that they didn't keep the "X as Troops" option with Azrael/Belial/Sammael. I still don't really see any good in that.

tedurur wrote:
There will most likely be an errata

Famous last words?

 namiel wrote:


*snip*
There is only one company master for the 1st and 2nd company.
*snip*

I wasn't aware Belial and Sammael were 10,000 years old. I bet they were pissed when that whipper-snapper Azrael bumped them from the Chapter Master gig! Not to mention those successor chapters all being told that Belial and Sammael were also in charge of their 1st and 2nd companies. Do you think they tele-commute to those other Chapters or do they book a battle barge and rack up the frequent flyer miles?

 Commissar Merces wrote:
A CAD is looking more and more likely for me... this detachment foolishness is too restrictive.

I am so disappointed that people don't just outright ban formations and detachments. They are just GW rewarding you for being a good consumer and buying large amounts of certain kits.

Hate to break it to you, but a Combined Arms Detachment is - well, a detachment. That spiteful ban wouldn't do you much good. Not to mention you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, plenty of formations that are fun and fluffy to play against.

Formations and detachments are a big part of the game now. Huff and puff all you want, the house isn't going anywhere.

If you're really convinced that GW is up to no good, no need to play new edition rules or buy new books: just play a previous edition. Loads of people on Dakka doing the same.

nekooni wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

lonewolf81 wrote:
Flyers must always start in reserve and the rulebook states "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to
move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game
begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a
Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed
on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule)" So if you take the ravenwing formation you ll have to put all your units in reserves
cause flyers cant move out of reserves and with "strike as one" all the formation units must be deployed together. So if you take only the ravenwing formation and flyers
in it, you auto loose cause of no units on the table turn one.

This is getting ridiculous.
No flyers because that is an autoloss?
That means you cannot pair DW with Flyers outside a CAD and the Lion's Blade.

Let me get this straight.
If you run RWSF with a flyer, you loose.
If you run a DWSF, you loose.
If you run a DWSF with a RWSF and a flyer, you loose.

Seriously?

The only possible loophole for the RW Strike Force I can see is that the rule reads "either put everything in reserves and arrive at start of turn 2 OR deploy as usual". That'd mean that you can deploy your regular forces in turn 1 and your flyers go to reserves "as usual". But let's wait for the English wording before we loose our gak over this.

Maybe you are not supposed to use fliers and only this formation. And if you wanna do it you should also take a support squadron to be deployed in the table turn one. Also having fliers auto arrive turn 2 is huge.

The way is worded i take it "reserves or not reserves (deploy normaly)" Definetely needs an FAQ

 the_Armyman wrote:

 namiel wrote:


*snip*
There is only one company master for the 1st and 2nd company.
*snip*

I wasn't aware Belial and Sammael were 10,000 years old. I bet they were pissed when that whipper-snapper Azrael bumped them from the Chapter Master gig! Not to mention those successor chapters all being told that Belial and Sammael were also in charge of their 1st and 2nd companies. Do you think they tele-commute to those other Chapters or do they book a battle barge and rack up the frequent flyer miles?

"counts as" for your successors

I am talking about the dark angels chapter only and this is for the current snippet of time in the plotline

since when do all Formations "require" you to buy more stuff?
The RW Strike Force only has a min requirement of an HQ and 2 FA choices. Who in the heck doesn't already have this if they are playing Ravenwing?
banning Formations is the silliest thing I've heard since.....well, just banning Eldar in general, lol.
I love the formation style of play, it reminds me more of epic Space Marine when it comes to building forces. I also plan to make my own printed datasheets with all units on them that I choose for each formation

as far as Company Masters go, you can equip one with terminator armour and he has the deathwing rule so Belial no longer has to be your Master of the Deathwing.

And to the translation of the RWSF, it states all in reserve OR deploy normally, so that means flyers in reserve, everything else on table if you play a RWSF only. You just can't split up some bikers, speeders etc to go in reserve and some on table. Of course, maybe there is nothing stopping you taking 2 formations where you put all of one in reserve and the other on table.

not huffing and puffing, just annoyed that these formations exist. The skyhammer one is a perfect example of what these things really are: a cheap marketing ploy. I just think they should be treated as such.

Beyond that, someone needs to start giving us some positive info because the last couple of pages have been nothing but depressing. Tell me more about our awesome librarians that can't join my ravenwing units

OMG Advanced Space Curusade / Tyranid Attack Scouts in the WD pics? LAAAVHELY!

I thought I was the only one to love them!

In the name of the Holy Lion, let's all see the Codex in its full glory before we start judging.

That said...

 Commissar Merces wrote:
A CAD is looking more and more likely for me... this detachment foolishness is too restrictive.

I am so disappointed that people don't just outright ban formations and detachments. They are just GW rewarding you for being a good consumer and buying large amounts of certain kits.

Yes, they are there to sell more models (it is actually quite clever). However, once we get beyond that...

Formations are _supposed_ to be restrictive, Just ask an Eldar player. you will _never_ get everything you want in a 2,000 point force.

However, in return for using formations, which represent how specific units often appear/are used in the 40k universe, you get some seriously cool rules that make the units within them better. You cannot have the one without the other because that is the balancing factor. Take a number of specific formations, and you get another bonus - but are more limited. This is how it works.

For example, when I play the (filthy, filthy xenos) Eldar, I am all over the Aspect Host. BS 5 on Avengers and Reapers? Give me some of that. However, I cannot just have two Aspect squads - I must take three, and that is on top of the core formation of bikes or walky Guardians (you want the guaranteed 6" run, natch). The Aspect Host is still good, but it comes with a burden that you have to figure out how to live with. This particular example I actually think is quite cool, as those Guardians are too expensive to consider them a 'tax' and so you have to figure out how to make them perform properly and earn their points, in a way you just could not/would not do if you could spam the Aspect Hosts.

With the Dark Angels the core tax is the Demi Company - which I would be mostly okay with as I tended to take two Tactical Squads in my armies, and I guess I could fit in a third. But I only ever took Devastators on 'special' occasions and I have tended to avoid Assault Squads. Now, if I want all the benefits the Lion intended for my marines, I am going to have to figure out how to make them part of the standard battle plan (because they are _way_ too expensive to be a tax).

There are now many, many different ways to field army - battle forged or unbound, CAD alone, CAD with formations or Allies, Decurion, formations alone... Ravenwing and Deathwing are no exception to this,.

I would say that formations, in and of themselves, are cool. Yes, there is a financial aspect for both us and GW to consider but _if_ you are in this for the long haul, I would say this is something of a Golden Age for 40k. Made all the better for a bona fide decent Dark Angels Codex.

Come on, we Dark Angels are no strangers to heavy Emperor-given restrictions, we know how to deal with them. We know you just cannot take anything you want and be damned - might as well be a filthy Space Wolf if you go down that path!

I'm not trying to start verbal sparring over formations: simply put this potential problem with non ravenwing characters could be fixed by the old system of an HQ selected on a bike unlocks ravenwing bike squads as troops rather than this overly complicated way. I shouldn't have gotten into my personal feelings about formations, I apologize.

That's all. Can we get back to rumors?

Yes, some people like these Formations, great. They should have the option, and maybe I could work with it.
But WHY can't the old FOC moving still be an option? For those who prefer to work that way and DON'T like these Formations and for those who would be willing to give up those bonuses to make their force the way they want in a simpler and easier way.
Never got an answer to this, and got accused of just wanting to complain (for not answering a question that was never asked, no less...), so it's time to answer it!

So how long until they errata missile lock from the Nephilim again?

CrashGordon94 wrote:
Yes, some people like these Formations, great. They should have the option, and maybe I could work with it.
But WHY can't the old FOC moving still be an option? For those who prefer to work that way and DON'T like these Formations and for those who would be willing to give up those bonuses to make their force the way they want in a simpler and easier way.

You've seen the Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments, right?

"FOC swaps" were cool and all, but they also were tied to specific characters. That's not the case anymore. I'm much happier with unique Detachments instead of FOC swaps.

CrashGordon94 wrote:
Yes, some people like these Formations, great. They should have the option, and maybe I could work with it.
But WHY can't the old FOC moving still be an option? For those who prefer to work that way and DON'T like these Formations and for those who would be willing to give up those bonuses to make their force the way they want in a simpler and easier way.
Never got an answer to this, and got accused of just wanting to complain (for not answering a question that was never asked, no less...), so it's time to answer it!

Can't you just use a CAD or even go full-on unbound? There's no rule that prevents you from doing that. Yes, you loose those bonuses, but you just said you would be willing to give those up, right?

nekooni wrote:

CrashGordon94 wrote:
Yes, some people like these Formations, great. They should have the option, and maybe I could work with it.
But WHY can't the old FOC moving still be an option? For those who prefer to work that way and DON'T like these Formations and for those who would be willing to give up those bonuses to make their force the way they want in a simpler and easier way.
Never got an answer to this, and got accused of just wanting to complain (for not answering a question that was never asked, no less...), so it's time to answer it!

Can't you just use a CAD or even go full-on unbound? There's no rule that prevents you from doing that. Yes, you loose those bonuses, but you just said you would be willing to give those up, right?

Apparently, you keep the rerollable jink.

 Kanluwen wrote:

CrashGordon94 wrote:
Yes, some people like these Formations, great. They should have the option, and maybe I could work with it.
But WHY can't the old FOC moving still be an option? For those who prefer to work that way and DON'T like these Formations and for those who would be willing to give up those bonuses to make their force the way they want in a simpler and easier way.

You've seen the Deathwing and Ravenwing Detachments, right?

"FOC swaps" were cool and all, but they also were tied to specific characters. That's not the case anymore. I'm much happier with unique Detachments instead of FOC swaps.

They never should've been tied to a single character or even two characters. It should've been any HQ on a bike unlocks it. The issue currently, is there is no HQ choice outside of Sammy to use the ravenwing detachment unless we are missing something or it is FAQd


Also note, the ravenwing only rule means you will need to take another detachment formation in order to take any deathwing or green wing models where before, you had freedom.