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That middle part is the one that most disappoints me, the rest are more about systems differences than actual roleplaying...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 23:35:53
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Eh, systems allow for role-play to a large degree. They allow you to define the character's skills and focuses. They do not make role-play, but they facilitate it. Now dialogue still trumps all, but systems are still important.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Complaining about systems is really just a minor nitpick when you're trying to claim something isn't "really" a roleplaying game. The actual roleplaying, itself, is the important part.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 03:09:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Call me controversial if you want, but I actually prefer the current system.
The original fallout let me spec a high strength character - someone who ought to be a melee character by rights - with a minimum intelligence, but then get hold of the alien blaster on the first journey and then on put all my skill points into energy weapons so I could make short work of almost anything out there.
Now at least you have to have minimum stats to unlock the relevant perks.
I have played for over 400 hours according to steam, and I have not found it that bad at all. my characters are mostly sneaky snipers, but I have a melee based guy, a heavy weapons woman, most so far have helped the Minutemen but my last two characters have completely ignored them in favour of the BoS and the Railroad. (and yes, my melee character is in with the railroad to get his hands on that wonderful ballistic weave. He's going to need it!)
Yes it would be nice to see what your character is going to say other than just "Sarcastic", but I believe there are mods out there that tell you exactly what each choice is.
P.S.
I don't know why they didn't go with Skyrim's system. You level up by using your skills, so your character evolves with you. Use bows a lot, your bow skill goes up more than your destruction magic. Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. In fallout, if you use a non-automatic rifle more than energy weapons, then your rifle skill should go up more than your energy weapons skill - irrespective of your intelligence or agility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 08:01:46
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.
Conrad Turner wrote: I don't know why they didn't go with Skyrim's system. You level up by using your skills, so your character evolves with you. Use bows a lot, your bow skill goes up more than your destruction magic. Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. In fallout, if you use a non-automatic rifle more than energy weapons, then your rifle skill should go up more than your energy weapons skill - irrespective of your intelligence or agility.
I find that system leads to abusing to grind skills. Like making hundreds of iron daggers till they patched it so the higher the value the more experience you get, so I made lots of jewellery instead, then enchanted the jewellery to improve my enchanting skill, then sold it to improve my barter skill and to buy more crafting ingredients, then repeated it in another city while I wait for the merchants to restock. Maybe have transmutation to turn iron ore into gold ore.
Being able to simply choose my skills lets me specialise where I want.
Though Fallout 4 prevents you from really specialising since the second rank of perks is gated behind about 10 levels.
But previous games games had the problem of letting you max out a combat skill by level 5 with only a few perks to look forward to. Seems too early to master a facet of combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 09:38:49
Melissia wrote: Complaining about systems is really just a minor nitpick when you're trying to claim something isn't "really" a roleplaying game. The actual roleplaying, itself, is the important part.
Again, the systems are important for role-playing. Think about NV where you could use your technical expertise to solve problems. If you don't have any way of representing that technical expertise (in this case science or repair skills), the how does the game know when to give you the options? You either give all the options, or none in that case.
I agree that dialogue and options are still the most important (which is my main complaint about 4), but that does not make systems any less important. Look at PnP RPGs. They are able to get away with more, as they have a someone like a dungeon master as final arbiter, but they would not be the same without their systems. And in games, systems are the game themselves. It can be top-down/isometric, first person, third person, or even text adventure, but allowing you to sculpt a character using the systems allows that character to be further reinforced. It's quite possible to have an RPG without any systems, a walking simulator with good enough writing could be an excellent RPG title, but in most other cases systems should facilitate role-play. And I don't think this system does that as well as the old one. Not the old one was perfect (far from it), but it needed improvement, not be gutted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 14:11:09
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Iron Ore -> Gold Ore -> two gold rings -> two enchanted gold rings was an easy way to increase magic, blacksmithing, enchanting, and barter all in one go, whilst making you enough money to pay for your ingredients with a profit too. It still makes more sense to me than using ballistic weapons constantly, with the ability to 'magically' increase your energy weapons skill, or your sneak skill from that experience.
I wasn't saying it was perfect, I don't believe any game has got it correct.
There may be a certain logic in going with a 'half-skyrim, half-F4' sort of system. Something like "You can only spend perks in things you have actively been using, or in increasing your base attributes." to stop people blundering in with heavy weapons, but magically increasing their stealth.
I also liked the 'constellation' idea of the perk trees in Skyrim. F4 only gives you a single line and that seems to reduce the choice.
It would have been better if they gave multiple perks per level, but each current perk had more levels with branching. That way, you could quickly make a more rounded character who can do multiple things reasonably, or a specialist that does one or two very well.
And after all, if you get high enough in F4, you are going to be a generalist anyway as none of the perks are mutually exclusive.
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Aye, Settlement Keywords needed patching. Still don't have the far harbor barns though, guess I'll have to wait till its patched again.
Anyway, I installed Homemaker and I'm having a lot of fun with the shipping crates and wrecked busses and cars. My settlement walls look much more interesting with those mixed in to the junk fences. I can even even built!d walkways across them.
Yeah, that problem is a mod issue. There are SK patches to fix it (although probably not for far harbor).
However, I've also read that the keyword limit has been raised significantly in the 1.5 update. This seems to make SK unnecessary, Although a new version is apparently being worked on with the creation kit.
After spending 3 days getting the game working again once 1.5 hit, I removed SK along with a few mods and I've not missed it, and actually I prefer having some settlement mods in their own tabs as I can find things easier.
Co'tor Shas wrote:...The dialogue is set up in a 4-button mode with short, usually one word descriptions of what you are going to say. This can include stuff like "Sarcastic", which is a meaningless word, that has no indication of what the answer will be (sarcastic yes, sarcastic dismissal, just a sarcastic quip, ect). Instead of you choosing your reaction, it's the voice actor.
Just to poke my nose in on this conversation. The main problem I have with the dialogue style of FO4 is that the options don't really make any difference to the outcome. Whatever you say you always end up with the same information being presented to you, just with slightly different words.
Take the very first conversation you have with Vault-Tek guy:
Spoiler:
He says you have entry to the vault and you're given the "options" of Yes, No, Question, and Sarcastic.
Say "yes" and he continues to explain.
Say "no, go away" and he continues a sales pitch.
Say "what do you mean?" (or whatever the question is) and he continues to explain.
Say "I can't wait for the end of the world" and he laughs then continues with the sales pitch.
It makes no difference in what you say, he still tells you the same information.
Yes that is the most extreme case, and is fixed for a reason at that point in the game (at the very beginning and just so you can move on to assigning your character).
But very few other conversations, all the way up to the most important story points, basically feel the same.
Whatever you say, however rude or nice you are, you can only upset your follower not the person (or faction) you are conversing with.
This has led to my second playthrough being a yes-man. Pretty much every conversation I just say "yes" as it makes no difference.
It never felt that way in any previous games.
And another thing: I don't think Bethesda knows what sarcasm really is. They should just replace "sarcastic" with "rude". It'd be more accurate.
Conrad Turner wrote:There may be a certain logic in going with a 'half-skyrim, half-F4' sort of system. Something like "You can only spend perks in things you have actively been using, or in increasing your base attributes." to stop people blundering in with heavy weapons, but magically increasing their stealth.
I like that idea.
So instead of what you use increases in power, it just unlocks the perks.
I also liked the 'constellation' idea of the perk trees in Skyrim. F4 only gives you a single line and that seems to reduce the choice..
Yeah, there are certain perks that I'd prefer to pick one level without the previous level. Strong back being the first to come to mind: I'd like to be able to fast travel when over encumbered, but not burn action points just to move (especially in a VATS playthrough).
Mastodon: @DrH@dice.camp
The army- ~2295 points (built).
* -=]_,=-eague Spruemeister General. * A (sprue) Hut tutorial * Dsteingass - Dr. H..You are a role model for Internet Morality! // inmygravenimage - Dr H is a model to us all Theophony - Sprue for the spruemeister, plastic for his plastic throne! // Shasolenzabi - Toilets, more complex than folks take time to think about!
Loving Far Harbor so much (being from the Northeast, this game really hits some interesting notes for me).
I would definitely recommend taking Nick with you, he opens up some interesting interactions. There are a few new factions introduced, a lot of very New England themed things (Vim/Moxie, general Mainer disdain for outsiders once you get North of Portland, maple tree sap gathering, Fog in general).
Wonder if they'll do Providence or NH next (I should be so lucky).
Gotta say, the Radium Rifle is probably my new favorite weapon. I wish the barrel upgrades didn't look so silly, but it's generally been a really solid weapon, at least for the level range I'm at. Assault marine armor is pretty awesome too, glad I went through the trouble of getting it.
EdSnark wrote: Gotta say, the Radium Rifle is probably my new favorite weapon. I wish the barrel upgrades didn't look so silly, but it's generally been a really solid weapon, at least for the level range I'm at. Assault marine armor is pretty awesome too, glad I went through the trouble of getting it.
Any uglier than the heavy robot armour? The only Marine stuff I can find on the wiki is a Marine Wetsuit, which is not that good and can't be modded, so can't be worn under armour.
I just can't believe that there is no workbench in the settlement of Far Harbour. It's annoying that I have to go to the lumber mill any time I want to break anything down. still, that's where I am making my prime settlement and it seems I need to go back to the mainland to get some food, and some components for a generator and some defences.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, found it, but I don't think Marine Armour is as bad as the Heavy Robot Armour from Automatron.
At least the Marine Armour looks like a scaled down Power Armour.. Now I need to get me some of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/24 14:09:26
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.
I don't know if anyone here is still interested, but I've built up the slog recently and uploaded a walkaround:
Sad note; you will see a gravestone and a giddyup buttercup by Arlen's shack, and no Arlen inside. He died in the very first attack on the slog before I had had a chance to build anything (or find the holotape and parts for him). RIP Mr Glass.
This is built with mods but no dlc.
I'm interested to see what the console users make of mods once they are released, especially those that have no experience with pc modding.
Mastodon: @DrH@dice.camp
The army- ~2295 points (built).
* -=]_,=-eague Spruemeister General. * A (sprue) Hut tutorial * Dsteingass - Dr. H..You are a role model for Internet Morality! // inmygravenimage - Dr H is a model to us all Theophony - Sprue for the spruemeister, plastic for his plastic throne! // Shasolenzabi - Toilets, more complex than folks take time to think about!
I actually think the Marine Armor looks pretty cool, I just don't know if it's worth the hassle of diving around in the ocean for it.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
It's not that much of a hassle if you have the diving suit, and it's not super deep down or that far out. The biggest issue is it's weight, I had to drop most of my non-essential equipment to get all the pieces, as Nick is being used to carry all the concrete I felt the need to pick up...
Speaking of settlement/crafting resources, just went to Cranberry Island Bog and cleared the place out. I would recommend unlocking it's secrets and opening the supply shed; you get a whole lot of loose crafting resources (including screws). And it all re-spawns I assume, so worth the time spent imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/24 22:25:30
I've not been to the bog yet, I'll check it out.
I've got three settlements on far harbour now, and could do with a few more resources.
If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++
So...anyone else run across Shipbreaker? I was WAY too low of a level when the quest popped up and I followed the radio signal only to be slaughtered like a radroach...
Ran across him, kited him round a couple of trees like a decent WoW hunter, killed him without trouble. I think he only managed to hit me twice due to the trees in the way, and that was because I managed to get stuck whilst backing around them. Took to jumping a lot after that and didn't get hit again.
Mind you, I do generally specialise in ranged characters, so that's a good advantage in situations like that
P.S.
No, I haven't seen any VIM power armour, got to look for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/31 10:39:01
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
Bobtheinquisitor wrote:what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.
Is there a... way you can get more smoke grenades? >.>
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: Is there a... way you can get more smoke grenades? >.>
Any particular flavour of smoke grenade?
There are merchants that will sell limited numbers of a relevant type of smoke grenade, they will be the ones in the main base of operations for the specific faction (not to give away any spoilers as I believe you've only recently started).
Mastodon: @DrH@dice.camp
The army- ~2295 points (built).
* -=]_,=-eague Spruemeister General. * A (sprue) Hut tutorial * Dsteingass - Dr. H..You are a role model for Internet Morality! // inmygravenimage - Dr H is a model to us all Theophony - Sprue for the spruemeister, plastic for his plastic throne! // Shasolenzabi - Toilets, more complex than folks take time to think about!
See my problem with Shipbreaker was that I was roughly 40 levels lower than it, and all I really use right now are a poisonous radium rifle and the Harvester. While the Harvester is pretty damn ridiculous, it's obviously a bad idea to melee Shipbreaker (more so since I don't have a ton of strength or melee related perks yet). So I tried my best to kite and shoot, but I don't do enough damage with ballistic weapons to it and I got stuck on a tree and got wrecked...
I'll come back later when I level up some more. Or I'll just go back with some X-01 armor and a Fat Man. Either way, it WILL die.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 00:55:29
EdSnark wrote: See my problem with Shipbreaker was that I was roughly 40 levels lower than it, and all I really use right now are a poisonous radium rifle and the Harvester. While the Harvester is pretty damn ridiculous, it's obviously a bad idea to melee Shipbreaker (more so since I don't have a ton of strength or melee related perks yet). So I tried my best to kite and shoot, but I don't do enough damage with ballistic weapons to it and I got stuck on a tree and got wrecked...
I'll come back later when I level up some more. Or I'll just go back with some X-01 armor and a Fat Man. Either way, it WILL die.
You dont need a fat man, just a pile of mini nukes and a mine. Apparently you can drop a mini nuke on the floor and detonate it. Combine a whole pile of them with a couple of mines and you have the ultimate minefield. Haven't tested it myself but I saw it on YouTube. Can't find the video, and I don't know if it was modded but it should be easy to test.
Melissia wrote: Is there a... way you can get more smoke grenades? >.>
Any particular flavour of smoke grenade? There are merchants that will sell limited numbers of a relevant type of smoke grenade, they will be the ones in the main base of operations for the specific faction (not to give away any spoilers as I believe you've only recently started).
I got past the quest where you first get them, basically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/01 19:51:16
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia, that can either be the BoS or the Minutemen.
If it's the Minutemen:
Spoiler:
The box where you first pick up the smoke grenades will restock and you can pick them up there.
Also, any workshop in a settlement with an assigned artillery piece will stock the grenades.
If it's the BoS:
Spoiler:
Then you need to buy more from Proctor Teagan aboard the Prydwen. But he will only stock a few at a time, and not always regularly
Mastodon: @DrH@dice.camp
The army- ~2295 points (built).
* -=]_,=-eague Spruemeister General. * A (sprue) Hut tutorial * Dsteingass - Dr. H..You are a role model for Internet Morality! // inmygravenimage - Dr H is a model to us all Theophony - Sprue for the spruemeister, plastic for his plastic throne! // Shasolenzabi - Toilets, more complex than folks take time to think about!
// inmygravenimage - Dr H is a model to us all 
