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I realize that we're 39 pages in here, but everyone please try to stay On Topic in here.

Thanks!

Yeah, Guardsmen are the equivalent of your average modern day soldier... from a country like North Korea or China or India. They're trained, but not as well trained as they could be, and a lot of the doctrine and tactics they are taught is based on out of date and inefficient concepts of warfare.

In any case, Im looking forward to a unit of 3x stormsurges. They should, theoretically, wipe the board of anything that could be described as average infantry or light vehicle.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD

Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".

Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.

As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.

This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD

Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".

Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.

As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.

This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.

Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Read the discussion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/663097.page

I did a bunch of math and comparison on the Skyray, and it turns out the base chassis of it is simply under costed when you subtract the seeker missiles.

Edited the image to show the suit silhouette better



Based on the closer one's pose maybe this can serve as evidence that the crisis suits in the backdrop of the WD scans are actually an updated version of the older kit (like the Assault Marines kit a while back) and not the Farsight Codex conversions mentioned earlier

 Tinkrr wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Read the discussion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/663097.page

I did a bunch of math and comparison on the Skyray, and it turns out the base chassis of it is simply under costed when you subtract the seeker missiles.

It should be obvious from a glance IMO. 3 skyrays are 345pts and will hit with 4 marker lights meaning they can all dump 18 missiles hitting it on 2's and wounding it on 2's from 72" away. Skyrays are the most overlooked underrated unit in the tau book IMO. They also can take SMS for free. I can't wait to see what insane bonus they will get for taking a squad of 3 once the new book hits as well.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.

Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.

 AtoMaki wrote:
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?

Ok, it has GC USR, so why would it need multi-tracker? Also, lets be honest, what army uses blind?

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.

Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.

There is no other place you will find 2 BS4 networked marker lights, SMS, velocity tracker stock and 6 fething seeker missiles on an AV13 platform for cheaper then 115. I am shocked I am even having this discussion in a Tau thread.

I am... very underwhelmed by this.

Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.

The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.

This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).

So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.

Maybe it will grow on me, but not today.

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.

I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.

Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.

Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.

Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.

Yes, other things can take Seeker Missiles, but Missiles have to be fired at the same target that the model shoots at, which makes it awkward. Additionally, the point cost of the Skyray is super cheaper compared to other options as it's slightly more expensive than a Piranha when you subtract the six missiles it has and to quote myself here:

4.) If you do the math out on it, and pretend it's just a base tank without the Seekers or Markerlights (which we can calculate as two Pathfinders since they're the cheapest other sources) you find out the base of it, with the two drones or whatever other secondary weapon you choose, is a total of 45 points. Even if we don't subtract the Markerlights it's only 67 points after you take into account the standard Seeker Missile cost.

I mean wouldn't you take a Devilfish that came with two beefed up Pathfinders, Skyfire, more armour, and BS for a total of 67 points, at the cost of not being able to transport anything but those two Pathfinders that could shoot from inside of it?

It has toughness and wounds?

LOL!

 Kanluwen wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD

Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".

Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.

As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.

This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.

Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.

That is an interesting rules interaction.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.

That is an interesting rules interaction.

Honestly, it's just nice to see the Conversion Beamer rules make an appearance in more places. We had the Eradication Ray for Cult Mechanicus and the Eradication Beamer for Skitarii recently, and now we get this--which is great!

Zelnik wrote:
I am... very underwhelmed by this.

Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.

The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.

This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).

So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.

Maybe it will grow on me, but not today.

I completely agree - in a 1vs1 Fight a Wraithknight will win every time - this thing is branded as being Tau's answer to Gargantuan Creatures, Super Heavy's and Fortifications. It does none of this well. I would rather have less missiles but have D weapon shooting with a range of at Least 48". Yes you can take 3 but why would you want too, I'm disappointed with this ruleset.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Well, it's GC LoW, which means in FLG tournaments, you won't be able to take more than one. I doubt that they'll adjust the rules to allow taking of a squad of 3. After all, this isn't IoM

Adjust what rules? The rules say it's a squad of 1-3. The only reason you couldn't take more than one is if points didn't allow it or if the local tournament house rules it out.

And if they house rule it out then I would expect this same tournament to prevent multiple wraithknights and IK armies from showing up.

I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.

While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krazynadechukr wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Speaking of money, I see Faeit say GBP90 for the price. I guess that will be around USD$148, CAD$179 (some number about between the prices of Knight Warden and Knight Errant) and in Australia... $80,000.

Stormsurge is $123 on ebay (preorders) by some guy....

Yeah, sounds right. You should be able to get better than that discounted.

Darksphere/FLG type discounting should land it around $112.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

Zelnik wrote:
I am... very underwhelmed by this.

Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.

The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.

This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).

So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.

Maybe it will grow on me, but not today.

I completely agree - in a 1vs1 Fight a Wraithknight will win every time - this thing is branded as being Tau's answer to Gargantuan Creatures, Super Heavy's and Fortifications. It does none of this well. I would rather have less missiles but have D weapon shooting with a range of at Least 48". Yes you can take 3 but why would you want too, I'm disappointed with this ruleset.

Are we seriously comparing one of the most blatantly overpowered and undercosted units in the game to the Stormsurge? No unit comes off well from that comparison. In an ideal world, the Wraithknight would be significantly more expensive than the Stormsurge; of course it's going to be better.

The Wraithknight is a very versatile unit, while the Stormsurge is purely focused on shooting. Naturally, the Wraithknight will be better at CC, but the Stormsurge puts otu significantly more firepower at range, especially when it shoots twice. For it's price it has very balanced rules.

The local ETC powergamers have already declared the big suit useless.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The local ETC powergamers have already declared the big suit useless.

Glad we cleared that up then...

 Talys wrote:
I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.

While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.

0-1 LoW entry or 0-1 LoW model? Because if it's the former, taking more than 1 SS is completely ok

The first rules crop up, and doesn't make me want to scream in anguish and terror to the skies?

This release will be interesting. If rest keeps up with this one in the style it is written in, we might be getting the most balanced codex yet.

I mean, no Invul. save? T 6, W 8, FNP 5++? It's almost balanced.

Yeah, think I'll give the Stormsurge a miss.

I find it really bizarre that something which looks like a long range D weapon sniper rifle is actually a shotgun. In otherwords its packing about the same firepower as a single wraithguard.

All the rest of the shooting is done better, for cheaper, by riptides, broadsides and crisis teams. Tau did not need more missile and pieplate spam.

Really don't get why the lore for this suit massively hypes about this thing being meant to take on enemy super heavies when it just doesn't remotely have the weaponry appropriate to do that. Its weaponry is more appropriate to a horde killer.

Basically I expected something more akin to a shadowsword but no crazy large blast ignores cover. Maybe a small blast d weapon, but long range being the absolute given. I do not want to waddle my shotgun wielding battlesuit with no close combat weapons or arms towards enemy units with no jump pack to get away...

I think it is going to need some protection from drones and shields but it is likely to get this from the support systems, so don't rule it out just yet. It could be the best bullet magnet in the game.

I am a little disappointed it didn't get a long range D shot but the description and everything has it as a defence platform basically anti infantry not anti GMC or titan so given that I shouldn't be surprised it got D at 10".

It covers a lot of what other units cover and brings (very) little but more shots to the table. But with the stabilizers it does bring a lot more shots and a very long reaching strength 10 large blast.

I like it but only because it really looks pretty bad ass.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.

While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.

0-1 LoW entry or 0-1 LoW model? Because if it's the former, taking more than 1 SS is completely ok

At the moment, it's one model, but there are no squads of Lords of War, currently. It's also moot, at this very moment, because you couldn't take the StormSurge anyhow, as ITC specifically lists the LoW's you can take (eg Orca and Tigershark for Tau). Obviously, they'll add Stormsurge; the question is, will they allow a higher number of them as a part of the squad, in the same way that there is a specific exception for Imperial Knights (you can have 1 detachment with any number of IK's that the detachment allows).

Keep in mind, you're only allowed 1 Wraithknight, which effectively nerfed 7e WK vs 6e WK if you could have used more than 1.

In addition, if allowed, taking 3 StormSurge might lose you the game if the other player doesn't take a SH/GC LoW, per ITC rules, because if one player has a GC LoW and the other doesn't, you get a bonus maelstrom point for every 3 wounds that you deal. And those StormSurges look to be pretty easy to wound.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

 ceorron wrote:
I think it is going to need some protection from drones and shields but it is likely to get this from the support systems, so don't rule it out just yet. It could be the best bullet magnet in the game.

I am a little disappointed it didn't get a long range D shot but the description and everything has it as a defence platform basically anti infantry not anti GMC or titan so given that I shouldn't be surprised it got D at 10".

It covers a lot of what other units cover and brings (very) little but more shots to the table. But with the stabilizers it does bring a lot more shots and a very long reaching strength 10 large blast.

I like it but only because it really looks pretty bad ass.

There will be another (anti-knight/long range) version no doubt. Wait for it. You know GW.

You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points, making it almost as survivable against D guns and Grav guns as a Tau'nar. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?

For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!

Caederes wrote:
You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?

For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!

Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.