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Taking a step back and looking at it from a product development point of view...

It's actually good that PB is doing this discussion now; if Wave 2 is not more or less on the rails by this time, it's never going to happen, so they need to now think about new products to keep the money coming in to the company. Thinking about the scale problem now is about the most forward looking thing they've done in this whole episode -- and even then, there's a fail because they should already have done it.

Yes, Wave 2 should and has to be a priority, but having a priority doesn't mean you can work on some other things at the same time. The only problem with that with PB in particular is that they seem to have a shiny object problem, as in "ooo SHINY!" and hare off after something, forgetting about Wave 2. I don't think that's happening in this case though.

Anyhow.

From a product development perspective, this scale problem is actually fairly important. HG -- not PB -- absolutely need the cross-generation fights to occur. Right now a large portion of their consumer base is people like us who know the difference between the series and often, are just interested in one segment or the other. Has been like that for years.

Without something creatively new to gel the three components together, it'd continue to be the case and frankly, there would be little to new customers coming on stream to provide revenue -- the original series are dated and awareness is slowly fading away. HG tried to do "creatively new" with Sentinels, then Shadow Chronicles (with a huge dead space in between), but that's largely fell flat on their faces.

But "creatively new" can also come from another area. The whole backstory of a previous galatic war hasn't been explored well -- the whole Masters-Invid conflict, then the Zentraedi-Invid conflict, first Invid Invasion, etc. These are all huge areas where new stories can be told and a lot of things can be done. To tap on that, you need some sort of consistency between the series.

In RRT, that means having the ability to use different generation's units against each other. Without that tie, they really can't move the product forward to create new IP for Robotech. Most of us won't care, but it is actually important to attract new customers to an old brand. So solving that scale issue is one step to help them get more stuff out of the IP, and as such is important.

All that makes me wonder how much HG is actually doing the driving. Kevin would be the correct person to help set the various stories -- he is, after all, very good at telling them -- but it strikes me as that he's the very wrong guy to drive a mechanically complex solution to the problem in a domain PB is not known to be good in. It feels like somebody is taking a big hammer to PB's wrong-shaped peg and trying to use it to solve problems, with PB/ Kevin stuck in the wrong place between a hard rock and a hammer.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Warboss, I'll have to take your word for it. If 6mm is the most profitable option then they should take it. I won't buy 6mm cyclones even if they are plastic, and I wouldn't buy any mecha or Invid that are significantly smaller than a Valkyrie. I want minis I can enjoy without the game, since I won't be playing it, and an invid scout the size of my thumbnail just isn't enjoyable. Have fun with 6mm Invid if that's how it goes. I'll just wait until I can find some gashapon or toys that won't blow away in a sneeze.

Frankly, the Invid are the most distinctive designs in the whole Robotech saga. I wish I could find some good minis for them.



I love what they've done for STAW. All the ship minis are good sizes for playing with. They also cost the same amount and take up the same amount of space, which makes them easier to collect.

Killionaire, I would LOVE a 6 inch SDF1. I'd even buy it in resin.

I think they have 1/3000 to 1/8000 kits for the SDF in resin but they're pricey. Just for the record, I'm not advocating 6mm cyclones or even 6mm invid mecha. I'm advocating bumping up the scale of everything SC and New Gen on a sliding scale based on what best fits EACH mini individually (subjectively 20-50% roughly but I'm definitely not married to those exact numbers). I just want palladium to find a middle ground between unplayably small cyclones and giants towering over the existing macross minis. I just really hate the one size doesn't fit all but the cyclone solution palladium has latched onto and agree that 6mm has significant issues as well for those eras.

If you like the invid stuff the most, you should google the imai files to see the other half dozen or more prototype designs for beefier invid mecha that never made it to the screen or toys. They're protoytpe drawings of other cyclones (hover and space variants), the prototype alpha, etc that were pitched and shot down. I recently found out about it and thought it was pretty cool despite not being the biggest fan of new gen.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love what they've done for STAW. All the ship minis are good sizes for playing with. They also cost the same amount and take up the same amount of space, which makes them easier to collect.

Killionaire, I would LOVE a 6 inch SDF1. I'd even buy it in resin.

@Bob, you're not being straight here. The picture I linked clearly shows that the pre-refit Enterprise and Reliant do not take up the same amount of space - they are out of scale for no obvious reason.



Also, PB offered a resin SDF-1 as part of the campaign:

The SDF-1 Resin Collectors Edition is approximately 70-80mm tall

Did you buy it?

JohnHwangDD, the STAW E-Nil is notoriously tiny. I had heard they were releasing a bigger version of it. The Reliant is a pretty good size, close to the Micro Machine version. I also wish they would release the fighters and shuttles as single minis about the size of X-Wing minis. I guess I shouldn't have used the word "all", as the big Borg Cube is also not the same size. But most of the STAW ships are roughly the same size as or up to 50% bigger than the Micro Machines. They don't have anything like a 6mm minis sharing the field with a 50mm mini.

And I asked them if they would sell me the SDF in spaceship form, and they said no.

Palladium Books
Palladium Books
Jun 10 2013
Report spam
Hi [Bob].
The SDF-1 will be in Battloid form only.

Jeff
Palladium Books

So, no, I did not buy it. I want a spaceship.


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Warboss, if you know where I can get this stuff easily, please let me know. I've tried buying through hlj, and I apparently have an order waiting in limbo over there. When the RTT KS happened, I bought a few "what's in the box?" Macross toys, but I haven't seen any Invid stuff anywhere.

.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.

What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.

Even at the buffs I posted to between 8-10mm, the SC/New Gen mecha are generally the size of a 25mm Infinity fig to a 28mm 40k fig. There is plenty on there to paint and customize if my experience is any indication. I don't have any comparison pics myself but the destroid is smaller than the veritech and the destroid is still bigger than a 40k space marine. The average southern cross stuff and most invid at 10mm will be about that size and the size of an infinity infantry fig that tons of folks love to paint lovingly at the sliding scale. The exceptions would be the scouts,cyclones, and power armors obviously.




On an unrelated non-scale note, I found these pics from a digital sculptor while looking for the type of 40k scale pics above. Have these yf-4 pics ever been posted in the old thread? More at the link and spoilered below.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597588.page

Bob, the STAW Enterprise is half the size that it should be, compared to the Reliant. It's like 7 mm vs 14mm, and it looks ridiculous. It would have been OK if the NX-Enterprise were so small, or the Defiant, but those ships are supposed to be tiny.

As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Warboss, if you know where I can get this stuff easily, please let me know. I've tried buying through hlj, and I apparently have an order waiting in limbo over there. When the RTT KS happened, I bought a few "what's in the box?" Macross toys, but I haven't seen any Invid stuff anywhere.

Unfortunately, the Invid stuff I was talking about were just concept art drawings. Some guy bought out the model company's building that used to make the mospeada model kits and he found a few file folders/envelops with rejected concept art for Invid and Mospeada human stuff. No actual models were made and the designs were rejected and pretty much lost for 20 years. Palladium is supposedly using some of the art for their upcoming marine book for their prototype cyclones but I didn't hear anything about the invid being used for new stuff.

http://worldofjaymz.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Web_Archives

You can legally acquire it from there.

paulson games wrote:Can't rely on a RPG company to ever understand gak about the miniatures industry, which is the root cause of so many of their failures. They either don't get it, or just don't care because they don't understand miniature gamers and what drives their customer base. ::shrug::

Crux of the problem, I think. Do you know, I went and flip through the first few pages of the RTT rulebook, and they never actually said what the game was about, in wargaming terms? Company level game? Skirmish? Random roll dice? Nada. I don't think they actually called it a wargame, even. One online version I've heard is that the game has to be pitched as an RPG supplement (and most definitely not a wargame) because of licensing constraints.

I have the impression is that there's a distinct lack of common vision for this project. The original people had some picture. ND had one set of pictures, HG had another, Kevin had some picture, the eventual writers had another set of pictures. Overlay them together and you get the Frankenstein that we have currently.

TBH, asking for user feedback when the producer have no idea what the product is about is just going to fail, because any feedback would not fit some form of vision within the project team -- it's a confirmed miss right off the start. It's nice that Kevin is willing to make a stand for his vision, but it'd have been waaaay better if he can communicate his vision to his project team before too many things get committed to the point where recovery is along the lines of "Pull on the stick and pray hard"...

JohnHwangDD wrote:As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.

Yeah I got that one somewhere in storage. Got to get around to it.. eventually.

 warboss wrote:
Unfortunately, the Invid stuff I was talking about were just concept art drawings. Some guy bought out the model company's building that used to make the mospeada model kits and he found a few file folders/envelops with rejected concept art for Invid and Mospeada human stuff. No actual models were made and the designs were rejected and pretty much lost for 20 years. Palladium is supposedly using some of the art for their upcoming marine book for their prototype cyclones but I didn't hear anything about the invid being used for new stuff.

With the success of the PB RRT KS, I'm surprised those priceless things weren't all stolen during Crisis of Treachery II.

I know you're being sarcastic but they were in a rundown closed building unused for years in Japan that used to house the model company (seriously). This was like an anime lovers dream episode of pickers. Ironically, this made them more secure than the priceless works on art on the Palladium staff fridge that were stolen.

Well, if it helps they have no interest in user feedback.

So asking is just a distraction anyway.

So after checking out the KS comments, it appears that Chuck Walton is now helming the robotech project in place of Jeff Burke? Because when you have a massively delayed project frought with tons of very technical issues, the best person to act as a project manager is the guy you previously hired for his drawings...

Here's pics of my trek ships in 1/7000. I hope this works the last time I posted pics it just showed the same one over and over again.

Here's a pic of an rrt model next to a 15mm and 6mm cyclone

And another pic

 warboss wrote:
So after checking out the KS comments, it appears that Chuck Walton is now helming the robotech project in place of Jeff Burke? Because when you have a massively delayed project frought with tons of very technical issues, the best person to act as a project manager is the guy you previously hired for his drawings...

Situation Normal at PB. I don't think they learn very much from project issues over the decades.

That 6mm Cyclone is so cute. He could practically pilot the Veritech. Oh, wait...

The average of the two seems like it would be the best for the cyclone. Big enough to paint well but not obscenely oversized next to macross stuff. Thanks for posting real life examples in the same pic... you have officially topped palladium in that regard!

I'd prefer 6mm, but I'm not going to cry if they cheat a bit and bulk them out a bit. You get used to that kind of thing when dealing with small scale wargaming.

15mm just looks weird, really.

 warboss wrote:
The average of the two seems like it would be the best for the cyclone. Big enough to paint well but not obscenely oversized next to macross stuff. Thanks for posting real life examples in the same pic... you have officially topped palladium in that regard!

Thank you sir. I did it when I saw Mike post your mock up on FB.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.

What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.

The Valkyrie in guardian and fighter modes is smaller than any Micro Machine jet or toy meant to be held in a hand. They are a pain to assemble and fall apart with any kind of handling. The destroids are very slim and fiddly and have a ton of pieces. They may be taller than 28mm humans, but they are not as robust. They just feel small. The Zentaedi minis feel right to me.


I can't really get into Perry minis because they are so small compared to other 28mm figures (as well as boring). Below a certain size, I find a miniature loses its value as a miniature and only maintains value as a gaming piece. Since I don't game much, those pieces have no value to me.

I'd have to see 10mm cyclones, but the 6mm is just so small as to be pointless for me. The invid scout, which I care about much more, would similarly be too small to be anything other than a gaming piece, a token.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Here's pics of my trek ships in 1/7000. I hope this works the last time I posted pics it just showed the same one over and over again.

Are you posting from an iPad? Whenever I do, all the pictures have the same name, so Dakka just assumes they are the same picture. If you use one post per picture, it will work better.

Where did you find that Steamrunner? I'd love to have one. The Negh'Varr looks a bit out of proportion with itself.

Yes I'm posting from an iPad. Thanks. The steamrunner and negvar are old minis I traded for last decade. Some guy made a few and I traded him some of my 1/7000 akira class ships.

The question of whether game pieces have value outside of gaming is rather absurd. It's a bit like asking someone who never plans to use a knife whether how sharp the blade is matters to them: who cares? Neither the person asked not the person asking, if we're being honest. i realize that painting, displaying, or even simply collecting game pieces may be your thing. But surely you wouldn't expect PB (or any game company) to tailor their game pieces to non-gaming purposes anymore than you would expect fine scale modelling companies to make more robust products for gaming purposes.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Bob, the STAW Enterprise is half the size that it should be, compared to the Reliant. It's like 7 mm vs 14mm, and it looks ridiculous. It would have been OK if the NX-Enterprise were so small, or the Defiant, but those ships are supposed to be tiny.

As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.

You mean this one?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/B00SIIJL24/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en_JP

Thanks!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.

What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.

The Valkyrie in guardian and fighter modes is smaller than any Micro Machine jet or toy meant to be held in a hand. They are a pain to assemble and fall apart with any kind of handling. The destroids are very slim and fiddly and have a ton of pieces. They may be taller than 28mm humans, but they are not as robust. They just feel small. The Zentaedi minis feel right to me.
I can't really get into Perry minis because they are so small compared to other 28mm figures (as well as boring). Below a certain size, I find a miniature loses its value as a miniature and only maintains value as a gaming piece. Since I don't game much, those pieces have no value to me.
I'd have to see 10mm cyclones, but the 6mm is just so small as to be pointless for me. The invid scout, which I care about much more, would similarly be too small to be anything other than a gaming piece, a token.

The intent was to have models of a similar scale and size to warfare with.
There are many appropriately larger sized models for collectors if that is your primary purpose.
Mind you "Inbit" models are nasty hard to find.
This guy: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showuser=632John Moscat
Made the model kit "Pinky the space crab"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/211384222/Genesis-Climber-MOSPEADA-1-48-Inbit-Gurab-Production-Model-Diary-John-Moscato#scribd
He just finished last year making a blue "Gamo".
It just seems strange to push for something significantly bigger that pushes it outside the scope of scale as a gaming piece.
Guaranteed no-one would be happy.

I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.

Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>