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I would like to see the LR Annihilator in the new dex, but with Tank Hunters.
The Bs3 lascannons are usually underwhelming, but with tank hunters, they'd be srs biznis.

And I could 1-up my lascannon-loving SM opponent.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

Indeed it would.

That seems unnecessary.

"Ignores Jink" is simpler and achieves pretty much the same outcome.

I thought about that as well, but the whining would be epic...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

Indeed it would.

That seems unnecessary.

"Ignores Jink" is simpler and achieves pretty much the same outcome.

I thought about that as well, but the whining would be epic...

Jink spammers have no right to whine.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

Indeed it would.

That seems unnecessary.

"Ignores Jink" is simpler and achieves pretty much the same outcome.

I thought about that as well, but the whining would be epic...

Jink spammers have no right to whine.

Exalted

 Selym wrote:
Jink spammers have no right to whine.

*Picks up Dark Eldar and walks away.*

Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.

That'll be why we don't need new Russes, rather, having all variants in one book, and then getting a points rebalance.

10 Russes and a Banelade at 2k is the dream.

2 superheavies, 6 russes, and a command tank for me.

That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.

Panzer Battalion enthusiasts.

Who has less than three?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, superheavies are not automatically made redundant just because some people don't allow them.
It's never stopped the real cheese before.

Or, maybe the smart play is to play what you like.

Makumba wrote:
That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.

Obviously you are not an IG player.

For the record I own 2 Battletanks, an Eradicator, 2 Exterminators, a Thunderer, a Deimos Laser Destroyer and a Shadowsword/Stormsword chassis superheavy.

And I am planning on scratchbuilding a Baneblade in a week or so.

And I want to get more tanks.

For me the dream is 10 tank plus 1-2 SH's

Makumba wrote:
That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.

I have 6 Russes unbuilt at the moment...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.

You understand that prior to Astra Militarum that is EXACTLY how the Hydra Autocannons worked, right?

The fluff is that there is a mechanism inside of that targeting array looking bit on the front which "locks" the guns into a specific angle and path when it registers the shots hitting the target.
So the Hydra puts buttloads of rounds downrange until it finally hits, then the array takes over and locks it onto the target until it falls from the sky in a flaming wreck.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.

You understand that prior to Astra Militarum that is EXACTLY how the Hydra Autocannons worked, right?

The fluff is that there is a mechanism inside of that targeting array looking bit on the front which "locks" the guns into a specific angle and path when it registers the shots hitting the target.
So the Hydra puts buttloads of rounds downrange until it finally hits, then the array takes over and locks it onto the target until it falls from the sky in a flaming wreck.

My god. That has just put the most epic scene into my head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firing pointlessly until the enemy finally flies into the cloud of bullets, then the Hydra locks in and furiously chases the aircraft through the skies with Bullet Hell.

Makumba wrote:
That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.

Im sitting pretty at 14 russ.

I know someone was talking earlier that Lasguns should be buffed, had an idea for that. Attachments that are upgrades for any Imperial Guard Squad w/Lasguns/Autoguns (For fluff purposes and to justify some of the specialized ammo). Each squad can only take one attachment.

-Heavy-Charge pack 1ppm
Lasguns get +1 strength
-Assault Lascarbine Upgrade 1ppm
Lasguns become R: 18" Assault 3
-Hot-Shot 2ppm
S: 4 Ap: 3 Gets Hot!
-Poisoned Rounds 2ppm
Gains Poisoned (4+)
-Barrel-Length Upgrade 1ppm
Lasguns are now 30"
-Ripper Shells 2ppm
Lasguns gain Shred
-Red Dot Scope 1ppm
Lasguns gain precision Shots
-Underslung Grenade Launcher 3ppm
Model has a one shot 18" Frag or Krak grenade Launcher round

I'd go so far as to have them taken on anything and everything with a lasgun, not just one IG squad per selection.

 Selym wrote:
I'd go so far as to have them taken on anything and everything with a lasgun, not just one IG squad per selection.

Multiple squads can take the same attachment, but the same squad can't take multiple attachments, because it get's ridiculous when someone has an Assault Red-Dot Sight Lascarbine w/Poisoned Shells and an Underslung Grenade Launcher. Although also very expensive.

Ah. That makes more sense.

 Selym wrote:
Panzer Battalion enthusiasts.

Who has less than three?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, superheavies are not automatically made redundant just because some people don't allow them.
It's never stopped the real cheese before.

Any guard player worth their salt has at least five Leman Russes. I have 7 and a Baneblade. And I don't really play Guard anymore.

I would like to see ways to buff the firepower on Leman Russ tanks. Vanquishers need something to make them worth taking. Maybe some kind of twin link? Tank orders to gives out "Ignores cover"?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Any guard player worth their salt has at least five Leman Russes.

*Walks out.*

 vipoid wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Any guard player worth their salt has at least five Leman Russes.

*Walks out.*

You do a lot of picking up your army and walking out, don't you

-Vipod gets informed by me that Jink spammers have no right to whine, picks up DE and leaves
-Vipod gets informed by TCL that true IG have 5+ Russes, picks up IG and leaves

lol.

I have 7 hulls and a Hellhammer, btw :3

Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"

Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3

Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.

Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"

Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3

Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.

Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.

Not only is this unrealistic wishlisting, but the Instant death rule is OP. We will not be getting S4 on Hot shots, nor alternate fire modes. It's just not something I could ever see GW giving the Guard, even for Stormtroopers. We'll be lucky if Stormtroopers get buffed at all, they were bad last edition and they are bad now. What they really need is a point cost reduction.

Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

Give us our own gladius with free chimeras and armored LR formations with appropriate buff and ill be happy. Paying 65 pts for a chimera that only transports guardsman is simply unacceptable with stuff like Gladius and Deucalion running around.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

All I have ever wanted was for Stormtroopers to be legitimate choice in the IG codex. I don't understand why GW couldn't come to the same conclusions you have. I think your suggestion is a perfect fit for the role Stormtroopers are meant to fill while also maintaining balance. I might print this off & make it one of our new house rules.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

So basically the same as Skitarii Vanguard rifles without the radium rule? Yea that would be nice. Personally what I think is a realistic assumption is that they will get some special rules changed around (option to Scout/outflank like they had in the 5th ed codex) and a point cost reduction of 2 or 3 ppm.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

All I have ever wanted was for Stormtroopers to be legitimate choice in the IG codex. I don't understand why GW couldn't come to the same conclusions you have. I think your suggestion is a perfect fit for the role Stormtroopers are meant to fill while also maintaining balance. I might print this off & make it one of our new house rules.

glad to see others like it!

 ultimentra wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

So basically the same as Skitarii Vanguard rifles without the radium rule? Yea that would be nice. Personally what I think is a realistic assumption is that they will get some special rules changed around (option to Scout/outflank like they had in the 5th ed codex) and a point cost reduction of 2 or 3 ppm.

Skitarii got the *exact* rules I'd wanted for Stormtroopers since 4E (and had suggested in older threads), only better

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".

Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.

Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.

That's just my personal fantasy however.

Admittedly though, with S:3 T:3 I:3, assaulting an enemy would still be ill-advised against most targets except maybe Tau Fire Warriors. As such, maybe instead of a boost to Attacks or WS or giving them Furious charge, perhaps give the Hot-shot weapons the following profile?

Hot-shot lasgun - R: 18", S: 3, AP: 3, Type: Assault 3, Blind
Hot-shot laspistol - R: 9", 2: 3, AP: 3, Type: Pistol, Blind
Hot-shot volley gun - R: 24", S: 4, AP: 3, Type: Salvo 3/4, Blind

Basically, giving them the "Blind" USR; the logic being that the brightness of these super-flashlights dazzling them? The main problem with "Pinning" is that there are lots of ways around it thanks to high base Ld, Independent characters, Fearless, etc that most of the units that you'd want to be taking out would be effectively immune to it. Meanwhile, giving them "Blind" instead would give the Storm Troopers the edge in close combat and also give them a saboteur-type role.


As an aside, someone previously mentioned that the Guard need better mobility options. With that in mind, I think the way to go about it would be to scrap Rough Riders and instead make it a doctrine for Veterans; e.g. giving them a War steed that always comes with a Hunting lance for 30 points total. This would give them much more tactical utility by allowing them to be late game objective takers (thanks to Objective secured), dragoons (cavalry with 3 special weapons), and even semi-decent close combatants (War steeds, Carapace armour). Incidentally, by making the horses a piece of wargear, it also allows the codex the option of giving others access to it - namely CCS, Commissar, and Commissar Lords.

On a more "out there" notion, perhaps even Ogryns? Allowing them to move 12" per movement phase would certainly help resolve their transportation issue and would make them pretty scary if they had a threat range of 24", with Fleet and not being slowed by Difficult terrain. And that's before taking into account them having a S: 7 AP: 3, I: 4 attacks on their first assault.