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I think that mod warning was more aimed at you mate.

Selym,
I believe jan is going to a tournament soon, he posted a list in another thread.
15 scat bikes,
2 fire dragons with trimmings
Hawks.

I was surprised since it's pretty net listy at 1500 points.

Don't feel bad, he never referenced me either. Senpai will never notice me.

Akiasura wrote:
Selym,
I believe jan is going to a tournament soon, he posted a list in another thread.
15 scat bikes,
2 fire dragons with trimmings
Hawks.

I was surprised since it's pretty net listy at 1500 points.

Don't feel bad, he never referenced me either. Senpai will never notice me.

Looks like the blob is not unkillable after all.

Just because he felt like using Eldar on the day, does not mean that the argument is any less valid.

Jancoran sure has been quiet since Wardian popped into the thread...hm....

I smell double trouble.

Ah yes, the plot thickens.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Just because he felt like using Eldar on the day, does not mean that the argument is any less valid.

Yes and no
If this blob is competitive and can't be defeated by pretty much anything, it should make appearances at some tournaments. The ig blob has been around since 6th after all.

The fact it doesn't, and someone who says it's amazing decides to bring a net list eldar tournament list (a list that I claimed could 2 round the blob nearly, and he called it list tailoring and net listing) is damning if you are going to act as a credible source.

If I told you your drink wasn't poisoned, knowing I'm a chemist who has researched poisons, but I refused to touch your drink, would you trust it? It doesn't mean it's poisoned but it's certainly awkward at a party.

I don't think it's him. Janc HAS a tendency to PUT emphasis on CERTAIN words by PUTTING them in ALL caps. But we're getting really off topic here.

Yeah blobs aren't great. I mean yeah you could buff them with fortifications and allied psykers bt you are dumping a lot of points to make a mediocre unit.

Losing lumbering behemoth killed most of the LRBT variants dead. Not being to put ignores cover on vehicles is also a serious problem. Vehicles sucking in general is yet another big problem.

A mediocre unit that, bee-tee-dubs, gets slaughtered in a turn by my BT army's core unit:

Land Raider Crusader w/Multi-Melta
Crusaders x10 with Neophytes x5 and two power swords.
Emperor's Champion

Weight of attacks, higher initiative, if a Neophyte dies to overwatch, everyone left gets + attack. If I win combat (I will), I get to sweep with I5 and +D3. I'd have to be having a really bad day to loose to it.

This is, in itself, a below-the-curve unit.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I'd like to see rules that promote vehicle squadrons in the same way that SM tanks got rules for being full sized squadrons.

hat's because SM vehicles are weak compared to IG ones. They have lower armour, less firepower, and can't fire on the move.

SM tanks have one point less frontal armour. and two less side armour. They also cost less than half what a Leman Russ costs and bring a hell of a lot more firepower to the table.

No, they don't. A Predator with three Lascannons is about the same price as a Russ tank with much greater armour, greater firepower, and can fire on the move. How exactly are the guard not better?

Strange then, is it not, that said triple Las predator will often remove the stock LRBT (the both cost roughly the same) and a lot more stuff than the LRBT could anyway, all on its own.

That would be strange. Except it doesn't.

That would be extremely strange then because I can personally assure you that it does.

Poor you, rolling poorly. SM vehicles are just straight up worse. The IG even have a unit that can help Russes get a 2+ save.

A 2+ save?!?! Well, with camo gear and good cover I can occasionally get a 3+...
Im not rolling poorly, I am rolling average/above average. SM vehicles are just, point for point, straight up better.

Bullgryns, camo gear and an ADL. Do it right, and you can easily have 3 or 4 unkillable russes. Throw in prescience and you are far more accurate than most others.

And you're paying out the nose for that combo, and it's relatively easy to remove. To actually cover 3 or 4 Russ tanks, you need a relatively large unit which isn't cheap (and, don't forget, the *ENEMY* gets +1 cover save through the Bullgryns as well), you need an ADL, you need camo gear, and you need Ld reinforcement for the Bullgryns (otherwise knocking off a couple forces a fallback test on Ld7). Add Prescience and you need a Psyker as well. So lets say at *least* a 5 model unit of Bullgryns, a Commissar for Ld reinforcement, a Primaris Psyker, 3 LRBT's, and an Aegis line, you're talking 855 points, assuming everything is largely naked of options aside from Camo netting, to get that setup.

You're basically doubling the cost of those Russ tanks to get that save, your firepower is largely usefless against MC's, deathstar units, flyers, other tanks, infantry in decent cover, etc, and if an opponent has Drop Pods, or some sort of Ignores Cover mechanic themselves, then your great investment has become worthless.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
What is it with IG whiners recently? Your codex is fine. Stop trying to make it op.

Using this puppet, show us where the IG codex touched you.

*points everywhere*

Do any of you lot even read your own codex?

yes, we have. We also have tournament data backing up our assertions that IG are in poor competitive shape, which has been shared with you in other threads.

hat's because SM vehicles are weak compared to IG ones. They have lower armour, less firepower, and can't fire on the move.

The Predators are significantly cheaper, have Squadron benefits, and far better accuracy. A Tri-las Predator is a better tank hunter than any IG tank.

Many of IG vehicles and Leman Russ tanks in particular rarely earn their points back, regardless of what marines have. The reason I think there should be a rule like the marine full sized squadron bonus is because many IG tanks and Leman Russes are supposed to be in squadrons but you rarely see them taken in full sized squadrons because there is every advantage not to; it would promote fluffiness by promoting rules.

Consider how Leman Russ squadrons are used in an average game, where if you're moving your squadron correctly you're only giving your enemy AV14 to shoot at... So what if to simplify that early movement game the squadron bonus was a rule that as long as the tanks of the squadron are within a distance of each other all shooting is resolved against their front armor. Some sort of "Wall of Steel"

Tis sad but what Vak says is the truth. AP2 or worse AT weaponry are largely going to kill tanks by hull pointing them to death. A Tri-Las Predator has no useless weapons and is more accurate to boot. A Leman Russ Vanquisher, unless you dump a ton of points to make it better (Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?), will only either hit with it's Lascannon or it's main gun thanks to BS3 and no twin linked. And it can't even take useful sponson guns for it's main role as a long range hull point plinker.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Many of IG vehicles and Leman Russ tanks in particular rarely earn their points back, regardless of what marines have. The reason I think there should be a rule like the marine full sized squadron bonus is because many IG tanks and Leman Russes are supposed to be in squadrons but you rarely see them taken in full sized squadrons because there is every advantage not to; it would promote fluffiness by promoting rules.

Consider how Leman Russ squadrons are used in an average game, where if you're moving your squadron correctly you're only giving your enemy AV14 to shoot at... So what if to simplify that early movement game the squadron bonus was a rule that as long as the tanks of the squadron are within a distance of each other all shooting is resolved against their front armor. Some sort of "Wall of Steel"

What I'd like to see is Leman Russes being able to be taken in Squadrons with the Squadron commander being BS4 for like a 10 point upgrade. He can be taken alone but if taken in a squadron he can issue orders to his men. Or he can sacrifice his own shooting to use some kind of targeting relay that gives his men +1 BS, ignores cover or whatever.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Add inn off-bord artilley with infantry spotters as a new model, and we're in business.

OK, just what sort of off-board artillery are we talking about?

1 "FREE" S9 AP2 Apocalypse (cloverleaf) Barrage for every non-Wyvern unit you buy?

What is it with IG whiners recently? Your codex is fine. Stop trying to make it op.

IG don't need a buff.

I'm not whining. I'm simply leaving my IG on the shelf, while I enjoy my Eldar. However, if someone wants to play low tier, non-competitive, I'm happy to dust them off to play down to their level.

IG are not fine; IG kinda suck, being clearly sub-par.

I'm merely suggesting that IG be at par with Decurion; that is not unreasonable.

IG totally need a buff.

Anyhow, I'm Ignoring you from here on out. Good luck convincing the IG players who don't / won't have Eldar / Tau / Necrons / SMs to fall back on.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Do any of you lot even read your own codex?

Yes, and it seems you don't.

But it doesn't matter, does it? Your mind is already made up, and you have no intention of letting the facts sway you.

You started a thread asking how people could possibly think IG were underpowered. Many people took the time to reply and gave you many, many reasons why IG are demonstrably underpowered. You ignored all of them. Because that wasn't what the thread was about. You had no intention of ever actually listening - you just wanted conformation of your own personal bias against IG. When you failed to get it because your bias was just that - unfounded bias, you instead resorted to non-arguments to try and justify your bias, insisting that everyone else must just be wrong and you are the only person who can see the truth.

I see no point whatsoever in trying to argue with you because you have demonstrated that you simply won't listen. You will remain in a state of denial until reality itself alters to fit your baseless beliefs.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Many of IG vehicles and Leman Russ tanks in particular rarely earn their points back, regardless of what marines have. The reason I think there should be a rule like the marine full sized squadron bonus is because many IG tanks and Leman Russes are supposed to be in squadrons but you rarely see them taken in full sized squadrons because there is every advantage not to; it would promote fluffiness by promoting rules.

Consider how Leman Russ squadrons are used in an average game, where if you're moving your squadron correctly you're only giving your enemy AV14 to shoot at... So what if to simplify that early movement game the squadron bonus was a rule that as long as the tanks of the squadron are within a distance of each other all shooting is resolved against their front armor. Some sort of "Wall of Steel"

What I'd like to see is Leman Russes being able to be taken in Squadrons with the Squadron commander being BS4 for like a 10 point upgrade. He can be taken alone but if taken in a squadron he can issue orders to his men. Or he can sacrifice his own shooting to use some kind of targeting relay that gives his men +1 BS, ignores cover or whatever.

It would make sense if there were a tank squadron commander... Giving him a set of orders for the squadron with a variety of effects would help buff the unit without altering the fundamentals of what they are.

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Do any of you lot even read your own codex?

Yes, and it seems you don't.

But it doesn't matter, does it? Your mind is already made up, and you have no intention of letting the facts sway you.

You started a thread asking how people could possibly think IG were underpowered. Many people took the time to reply and gave you many, many reasons why IG are demonstrably underpowered. You ignored all of them. Because that wasn't what the thread was about. You had no intention of ever actually listening - you just wanted conformation of your own personal bias against IG. When you failed to get it because your bias was just that - unfounded bias, you instead resorted to non-arguments to try and justify your bias, insisting that everyone else must just be wrong and you are the only person who can see the truth.

I see no point whatsoever in trying to argue with you because you have demonstrated that you simply won't listen. You will remain in a state of denial until reality itself alters to fit your baseless beliefs.

Have an exalt, I could not have put it better myself.

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Do any of you lot even read your own codex?

Yes, and it seems you don't.

But it doesn't matter, does it? Your mind is already made up, and you have no intention of letting the facts sway you.

You started a thread asking how people could possibly think IG were underpowered. Many people took the time to reply and gave you many, many reasons why IG are demonstrably underpowered. You ignored all of them. Because that wasn't what the thread was about. You had no intention of ever actually listening - you just wanted conformation of your own personal bias against IG. When you failed to get it because your bias was just that - unfounded bias, you instead resorted to non-arguments to try and justify your bias, insisting that everyone else must just be wrong and you are the only person who can see the truth.

I see no point whatsoever in trying to argue with you because you have demonstrated that you simply won't listen. You will remain in a state of denial until reality itself alters to fit your baseless beliefs.

Have an exalt sir.

Lemon Bus Squadron:
-Up to three Russ tanks may be taken, but they must be of the same kind (e.g. 3x Eradicator or 3x Demolisher).

Bonus:
-One tank becomes a Squadron Command Tank, gaining Bs4 and Tank Orders (see Pask)
-Russes in this squadron may fire at separate targets to eachother, but must remain in coherency, and follow all other squadron rules. Each tank may only fire at a single target.

I like what you're doing here Selym, maybe have it so taking a squadron of say; 3 Punishers offers a benefit for having 3 of them in addition to the benefits you have here?

Punishers should be S6 and Rending period.

Not really what I was thinking, as the psuedo split fire with tank orders, combined with the should-be-there lumbering behemoth would make this unit useful.

What sort of bonus did you have in mind?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Punishers should be S6 and Rending period.

Yes.

Actually, a rule which allows tanks to be taken in squadrons but allows them to operate independently on the battlefield - IE ignore unit coherency and splitfire - would be a really good one for our tanks. Throw in a Veteran Crew upgrade which give BS 4 for +10 points and the old LB rules and we might have something to work with here.

A veteran crew upgrade would be absolutely perfect in my mind. As for benefits... I'm not entirely sure yet. I just saw how Predators get monster hunter and tank hunter (I think?) when they're taken in threes. So maybe Punishers would gain shred when they're taken in 3's. That's probably a bit weak, but I just think each Russ Variant should get some benefit when taken in 3's. (in addition to getting Lumbering Behemoth back)

Just rebuilt the Russ tanks, manticor, and death strike with my vdr.

Battle tank: 120
Exterminator: same
Vanquisher: 120
Eradicator: 140
Demolisher: 140
Punished: 120
Executioner: 140
Manticor 130
Dewthstrike: 130

Combine that with my houserule of "heavy vehicles ignore the ordinance penalties" and I think they would be on solid ground again.

Well, a squadron with unlimited coherency is not a squadron in terms of original meaning.

Split fire, yes. Unit coherency? Yes, but with 12 inches instead of 4 inches.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Punishers should be S6 and Rending period.

Even S5 Rending might be enough.

 Hawky wrote:
Well, a squadron with unlimited coherency is not a squadron in terms of original meaning.

This. A unit can't just be scattered across the board or partly in Reserves.