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What I like about 40k as a game goes back to why I enjoy miniature wargames in the first place.

I am a highly competitive computer RTS, MMORPG and electronic CCG player. Have been since these have existed, and I'm as WAAC and TFG as they come. No trick is too dirty in a competitive online game with someone across the globe that I don't know, and if there's something in it for me by PK'ing your ass, watch out!! If there's a ladder, I'll play til I'm on it, and then play til I'm at the top. But when it comes to miniature wargames, my personally is TOTALLY different.

First of all, I really love miniatures. I have a passion for collecting them, ever since I used Ral Partha miniatures to represent my characters in D&D for marching order. When I'm playing a miniature wargame, it's at least as much about the miniatures as it is about the wargame. I lovingly craft my game tables, which represent hundreds (thousands, sometimes) of hours of work on terrain. I put a lot of effort into each of my models, because they mean something other than a game marker. The friends that I game with are all the same way.

So when we get together, it's FAR more social than a computer game, so although we're competitive in the sense that we're trying to win, showing off our armies and doing battle with them is very rewarding in and of itself. Choosing my 100+ models and deploying them, and pushing them to the other side, or defending a fortress, or whatever, is just really cool for me. We play a lot of self-made scenarios, where the starting point is highly scripted, such as a strong fortification in the center of the table, with two other players attacking from either side (must protect flag for 6 turns, for example).

Now, the actual game system. Yes, it's not the fastest, slickest system out there. For sure!

I love list building, and 40k is the KING of listbuilding games. I have like... thousands in Excel spreadsheets. I love, turn-based, IGYG games (I love PC TBS games too, but only against AI, too annoying with 2 people), I like to move massive armies and the types of strategy that 40k promotes. Where deployment is critical, where an unexpected move can win a game, where objectives matter. I like the way games are won and lost, although of course, everyone who has played 40k have run into games where you know you've lost pretty early, and that can be a downer. But you can always concede, reset, and play again.

I also like the game length. To me, 3-4 hours a game is great; in one night, we can play 2 games + pizza, and that's just right (thrown in a KT game if we have time left over).

I also really like rolling dice I think that I own about 2,000 dice (though many are not D6 and not usable for 40k). Pick a color, pick a die, pick whether it's crystal or opaque, and I can probably give you a fifty or more. You can probably even pick what color you want the numbers colored in with on the crystal dice and I could pull it for you I don't mind rolling dice at all (I like it), and rolling for scatter lasers, or rolling to save against them is fun, for me. Dice trays all the way, baby.

What 40k doesn't do as well as some other systems is that once your units are deployed, you have less choices as to what you may do, and for experienced players, there are fewer nasty surprises. The warlord, for instance, is just any unit, and might be tough, and might have some psychic abilities, but you pretty much know what they can do.

On the other hand, this is much like modern warfare, which 40k sort of tries to emulate. Once two opposing forces pick their strategies and clash, the commanders can't magically turn the tide of battle. It's a footslogging melee at some point (in a metaphorical sense), whch I like.

Are there a lot of things that don't make sense? For sure! But by and large, they don't affect the funness of the game. Also, because I play with regular friends, if something REALLY doesn't make sense, we can just change it. We're a pretty easy going bunch.

To close, I like 40k mostly because I like epic scifi battles, I love miniatures, and I enjoy socializing and gaming with friends and to shoot the breeze. 40k combines them all!

Please, give me something of whatever you are having Talys

I don't think anyone is arguing about any of the above though. But, just that it's not a good thing that GW as a company doesn't seem to listen (or care) about customer feedback, and that perhaps the game that you love so much might be even better if they did?

In all seriousness, you mention being highly competitive. Have you tried Infinity? There is a worldwide tournament system for Infinity, nothing on the scale of MTG, but it's growing. After playing in tournaments for all kinds of games over the years I would say that they are the toughest, absolute razor-edge stuff. Yes it is balanced (you won't once look over the tabletop and say "I've lost") and the game is tactical to the extreme also. You play three games in a day and you will sleep well that night!

I'm agreeing with a fair few comments in here regarding the fact they seem to be not doing the basics regarding communication that everyone pretty much expects from a modern company.

Take Age of Sigmar as a prime example, its a brand new direction for a thirty year old game.. that apparently is supposed to be drawing in new players, but I have to ask, what new players? The aren't advertising, they aren't building hype anywhere, do they seriously expect a couple of vague online vids, some posters in their store windows and some info when the preorder goes up is going to drag new folks in? Just look at FFG for how to do build up to a new release, and then look at how well the release does it, hell next door at Forgeworld do things a hell of a lot better, and even a game like Heroclix that some see as a bit childish with the prepaints, has a much better hype building machine.

I sadly think the echo chamber suggestions are all too accurate, I mean come on, can anyone else believe any 'gaming' company (Miniatues, CCGs, Boardgames or console gaming) would proudly state they don't do market research in a preamble for the shares statement, and I already thought Kirby was a joke, but his Pokemon statement last year confirmed it.. the I don't want GW to be a fad company, Pokemon, remeber them? Yeah Tom, I mean, they've only been going for twenty odd years and had a turnover of 1.5billion relating to Pokemon products in same year you made that comment.. I'd totally forgotten about them.

 Pacific wrote:
Please, give me something of whatever you are having Talys

I don't think anyone is arguing about any of the above though. But, just that it's not a good thing that GW as a company doesn't seem to listen (or care) about customer feedback, and that perhaps the game that you love so much might be even better if they did?

In all seriousness, you mention being highly competitive. Have you tried Infinity? There is a worldwide tournament system for Infinity, nothing on the scale of MTG, but it's growing. After playing in tournaments for all kinds of games over the years I would say that they are the toughest, absolute razor-edge stuff. Yes it is balanced (you won't once look over the tabletop and say "I've lost") and the game is tactical to the extreme also. You play three games in a day and you will sleep well that night!

I'm actually very competitive on PC games, but on the tabletop, whether I win, lose, or draw, I don't much care (any more, anyhow -- when I was much younger, it mattered a lot more). It's a treat just to be able to play with friends, and I probably win between 40%-60% of my games depending on what I play and how I play, which is just fine with me. Part of it is, you get to know someone for 10+ years, and you form pretty close friendships; the last thing I want to do is ruin that by playing something they can't handle and land them with a 5 game lose streak. I'd rather tone it down and have a closer fight, and my buddies are of like mind with this. Scatter bikes weren't really the end-all, but had they been, I'm sure my good Eldar friend wouldn't field 30 of them every game.

I have tried Infinity! I don't really have the right terrain to make it work well (we use some dropzone stuff, some cardboard things, etc.). I would probably play it a little more, but my friends prefer 40k. The scale of it is not really what we are into, as we all are into large size battles. There's just something magical to a lot of nice models on a table.

I agree that looking at a board and going, CRAP, in 40k, sucks. This does not often happen to us for two reasons -- first, we all know each other pretty well, and we just don't play the worst lopsided matchups (because it's dumb, not not fun), and secondly, we usually prefer a board where meaningful terrain has been arranged and some kind of scenario has been preplanned that gives both sides some chance to win. It's also in my home, rather than a hobby store, so we have the luxury of being able to keep setups that we like for our next game (usually not for another 2 weeks), and we aren't spending a zillion hours transporting terrain and battle boards.

When you play with friends, you also have the luxury of easily modifying rules you don't like, and even changing it again the very next game to try out an alternative.

I know this isn't really something that everyone can do, and I appreciate that if I were packing stuff to play at a FLGS, I wouldn't want to take a trunk full of stuff. And even for gaming models, things like Wraithknights and Raiders are just not fun to transport.

With regards to communication, there is certainly a perception that Games Workshop doesn't connect with its customers. This is not a good thing. On the other hand, one of my favorite video game manufacturers is Blizzard Entertainment -- they also make many flawed games, are constantly complained about as being tone-deaf to customers, balance is horrible, and yet I find their games really fun. So I guess, to me, I see 40k as "their game", and they can write it however way they like. When it lands in my lap, it becomes "my game", and I can change it (with my friends) to whatever works for us. Now, I get that this is not viable for competitive play, nor for pickup games where you don't know your opponent and don't want to negotiate rule changes in advance. But the former I don't ever participate in except as a spectator, and the latter, is pretty rare for me, because I am pretty lazy at packing and transporting models (now, anyways -- I used to for years).

Would 40k be a better game if they had more interaction with customers, beyond what they see in their key locations, probably mostly in the UK? I think so. I think it would be a better game, have happier fans, and be a stronger ecosystem for it. I still don't think 40k is a game that can be balanced, though. Better balanced, yes, and internally, less useful units can be made more useful. But to GW's credit, the Eldar and Space Marine codex did a pretty good job of this.

But hey, GW has kinda done whatever they wanted in the last 30 years, so I won't hold my breath. I will have fun with it in the meantime, though

Blizzard is not even close to fair comparison, they may not always listen, but their communication with their fans is up there with some of the best.. Dev's themselves are on social media and will react to comments, they hold Blizzcon perhaps the most dedicated fan service event out there, they preview new content all the time, public test realm servers.. I mean I can really go on.

GW isn't even on the same planet as Blizzard when it comes to how they communicate with their customers.

Been following Blizz since the early nineties, really GW could learn a hell of a lot from them.

Basically I agree with Talys.

GW's marketing strategy is to sell ever changing Warhammer stuff to super fans who want to buy as much of it as they can get. Even the name of the shops is changing to Warhammer.

Obviously this does not suit people like me who do not want to spend endless money essentially to subscribe to a game that is never finished. I would like GW to 'finish' 40K, and make some new games.

Personally I think the 'superfan' concept is a false strategy as it relies on preaching to the converted, but how will GW convert people in the first place?

However, if successful we can expect the revenues to stabilise and perhaps even to start increasing over the next couple of years. If this happens, the no contact policy will have been vindicated.

Aye, but I suspect if it if it isn't successful, we won't have a lot of time to worry about it .. or shock horror we might be pleasantly surprised when GW actually gets with the rest of the gaming world out of necessity.

I am still adamant however that if someone running GW had a lick of sense, they'd be taking a heck of a lot more cash from the gaming table.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Blizzard is not even close to fair comparison, they may not always listen, but their communication with their fans is up there with some of the best.. Dev's themselves are on social media and will react to comments, they hold Blizzcon perhaps the most dedicated fan service event out there, they preview new content all the time, public test realm servers.. I mean I can really go on.

GW isn't even on the same planet as Blizzard when it comes to how they communicate with their customers.

Been following Blizz since the early nineties, really GW could learn a hell of a lot from them.

I have been a top ranking player (as in, comfortably holding a #1 ladder spot for months, until I quit) on Blizzard games; at one point in the distant past, I was the owner of a very popular fansite, and I can assure you that Blizzard fan negativity is a tsunami compared to GW negativity, when it really comes to it.

Yes, they have public forums. Yes, they have beta servers. Yes, they have devs that post up stuff (though this was a rarity until D3 got really bad and was in need of a reboot).

But the blues post over and over meaningless drivel, with "we understand and we're working on it" with and no resolution for months, followed by some massive overreaction that everyone hates. There is a nerf-buff cycle that makes Warhammer look so gentle in comparison; a class will go from "ZOMG PWN YOU!" to "ZOMG Waste of Time!" overnight. They will take an entire class of items which people invested tremendously in, and nerf it all in one fell swoop ("Attack speed too powerful! HALVE all the modifiers!"). And the beta servers are a funny thing. People scream at them, "This is stupid broken!" Four weeks later, BOOM, stupid broken goes onto live server. Or they fix it, but the last build introduces something else more stupid and broken

Another thing they do exactly the same as GW is that they playtest their games for very casual play (their own playtesters), and then the game is destroyed by powergamers who min/max gear and abilities, or multicharacter combinations. I also personally know GW employees and have played with them many times, and most of them are the furthest thing from powergamers. They actually think their games are hard, and are (genuinely) shocked when they see in front of their eyes their superboss on the hardest setting demolished in seconds.

But, my favorite is from my panic stricken friend: "My 10,000+ hour, top wizard in the world account is locked for cheating! Are you guys NUTS?" Blizzard response: "We're investigating a number of accounts and for your safety, we've suspended it. We'll get back to you." This actually happened to a really good friend, a top player, and made him quit the game, furious at the company (even though, two weeks later, they unlocked the account and apologized... sort of). On the bright side, he made, like, $20,000+ USD selling off his stuff

As opposed to GW, when I tell send a picture of a damaged sprue, I get a new sprue FedEx'ed to me.

GW can learn from Blizzard how to make 40k insanely addictive, and how to add polish to a super-professional level. But God almighty, they have nothing to teach in terms of how to treat customers.

Sorry, /end rant

I still love Blizzard though. And I will no doubt buy multiple copies of their next major game, and it will no doubt drain a significant portion of my life and reduce my painting output for quite a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Personally I think the 'superfan' concept is a false strategy as it relies on preaching to the converted, but how will GW convert people in the first place?

Yes, me too. I think this is a flawed strategy, without some way of making new customers. I don't think those superfans fall out of the sky.

wait are you this guy, talys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSzCcuVhPOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIr0trWStWY

 Talys wrote:

As opposed to GW, when I tell send a picture of a damaged sprue, I get a new sprue FedEx'ed to me.

Yeah, GW are great at fixing their models.

How do you think I'll go though if I send them a scan of the Psychic rules? Think they'll fix it and send me a new book?

 insaniak wrote:

 Talys wrote:

As opposed to GW, when I tell send a picture of a damaged sprue, I get a new sprue FedEx'ed to me.

Yeah, GW are great at fixing their models.

How do you think I'll go though if I send them a scan of the Psychic rules? Think they'll fix it and send me a new book?

You could try. Maybe they'll improve them for free and send you a new copy

Just as a dozen ridged blood angels shoulder pads may fall from the sky into my painting room whilst I sleep tonight...

Zen117 wrote:
wait are you this guy, talys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSzCcuVhPOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIr0trWStWY

Wow, where did you find those... LOL. Yeah, that's me.

 Talys wrote:


irrelevant gameplay issues and their fallout..

None of that has anything to do with what we are discussing.. we are talking about setting up an interest in products, if you want to go down that route, may I direct you to the hundreds of GW based rules arguments and annoyances with what is a broken unbalanced system.

However when talking about showing what is coming, preview release info, in some cases years in advance (it is Blizz after all) and their willingness to talk to their customers about things, tell us what is coming, explain what changes are inbound.. even if some folks get in a tizz because their dps rotation dropped 0.3 this patch.. then Blizz is miles ahead.

I'm a huge fan of both, but GW is not communicating with their player base right now. and there is no way that can be wrapped up as anything but a bad thing.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
No Games Days, no social media, downgraded White Dwarf, etc. etc. What is THEIR reason, in their eyes?

Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Beef_Commander wrote:
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.

My former local shop used to run events on the weekend. They used to give out calenders to everyone with all the stuff they were doing that month. That was, of course, at the inception of 5th edition the better part of a decade ago. Then GW enacted their one-man-store policy to cut costs. My local shop got moved to a smaller location in the mall, and the event support basically stopped. It's impossible to run events when only one guy and maybe the manager are at the store. Even if they tried, the turn-over rate increased dramatically and the shop had new employees every other month. I don't believe that shop is even open anymore.

I agree that hosting events is the way to keep customers interested, but that comes down to an individual effort because it has no support from GW. And frankly, the same is true of the Facebook pages. Most of them (including GW's) are automatically generated by Facebook and have no affiliation. They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.

 DarkHound wrote:

Beef_Commander wrote:
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.

They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.

Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.

If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.

Beef_Commander wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:

Beef_Commander wrote:
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.

They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.

Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.

If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.

Hang on are you trying to imply that people with at least half an interest in the hobby are jerks?

...to do something 'in spite of' does not mean to do something because you are spiteful.

Assuming you look up what that phrase means and continue to take issue with my position: I suggest the following. You like your local shop, you're on good terms with the employees right? Ask them what support headquarters gives them for the events. Ask them if they got any promotional products to give to customers, or even to display in the shop. Ask them if GW provides them any compensation for running these events, or if they are treated the same either way.

 Desubot wrote:

Spoiler:

Beef_Commander wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:

Beef_Commander wrote:
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.

They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.

Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.

If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.

Hang on are you trying to imply that people with at least half an interest in the hobby are jerks?

No, I think he's failing to appreciate what "in spite" means, or is trying to be clever.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

 Talys wrote:


irrelevant gameplay issues and their fallout..

None of that has anything to do with what we are discussing.. we are talking about setting up an interest in products, if you want to go down that route, may I direct you to the hundreds of GW based rules arguments and annoyances with what is a broken unbalanced system.

However when talking about showing what is coming, preview release info, in some cases years in advance (it is Blizz after all) and their willingness to talk to their customers about things, tell us what is coming, explain what changes are inbound.. even if some folks get in a tizz because their dps rotation dropped 0.3 this patch.. then Blizz is miles ahead.

I'm a huge fan of both, but GW is not communicating with their player base right now. and there is no way that can be wrapped up as anything but a bad thing.

You have attributed something to me that I did not write. (?!)

However, since you bring up Blizzard and "speaking of the future", I'll highlight an example of how telling people can get really annoyed with roadmaps that don't happen.
- "Diablo 3 will absolutely be a PvP game! We're adding it into the game [insert time frame]." ... never happened
- "DIablo 3 will have a an team skirmisher mode! Here's a Blizzcon video preview!" ... other than the video and a few people playing the preview.... never happened

The problem with roadmaps is that you have to do what you're going to do, and stick with the schedule. They are high negatives if you promise something and don't deliver, more so than if you don't promise it at all.

The problem with D3 during the days of Auction House was that people bought thousands of dollars worth of gear, rules changes would invalidate that and get them to buy thousands of dollars more of gear, and every time Blizz would make a 20% cut of it So at least, people perceive that this is not gamer-friendly, and pay-to-win. At the high end of the game, people payed thousands of dollars for *each piece of gear* using out. I still recall the most expensive weapon sold as being about USD $15k; like most everything else at some point, rendered the value of zero with a version patch.

The 40k equivalent would be, "Bolters are too weak. Now they are all S8." Next month, "Eldar are too powerful. Now they all run at max distance, but they are all T1" Next year, "Necron RPs are too powerful. Now they must roll double-sixes to resurrect." Next year, "Bolters are too powerful. But we're going to make chainswords all rending."

It would literally be impossible to not shelve a model as a game piece, as everything good would get nerfed at some point, replaced by something else that's a totally different build requiring that you remodel.

Getting totally off topic, but my original point was simply that Blizzard wrote games that I really liked (like Games Workshop) *despite* all the wonky, stupid things they do. It doesn't detract from the fun, though of course, if they didn't do wonky, stupid things, it would be MORE fun.

Eh should of quoted the original post and the the response

I think you'll find he paraphrased your rather ponderous post into something a little pithier.

 insaniak wrote:
Balance has never been a huge factor for me. I'd certainly not complain if everything was better balanced, but I'm not a competitive enough player (and fairly used to being stomped even by less problematic armies) to care that much about it.

It also comes up that a more balanced game is better for everyone. Casual players don't lose out on anything and in fact may have more fun because a battle which would have been nigh on impossible to win (due to the units they like being absolutely terrible or whatever) is now a close fought game with lots of epic moments.

On the other hand the game is massively improved for competitive gamers as they now have more tools with which to build their armies, which leads to more varied lists and styles of play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkHound wrote:

Beef_Commander wrote:
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.

The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.

The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.

Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.

These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.

Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.

My former local shop used to run events on the weekend. They used to give out calenders to everyone with all the stuff they were doing that month. That was, of course, at the inception of 5th edition the better part of a decade ago. Then GW enacted their one-man-store policy to cut costs. My local shop got moved to a smaller location in the mall, and the event support basically stopped. It's impossible to run events when only one guy and maybe the manager are at the store. Even if they tried, the turn-over rate increased dramatically and the shop had new employees every other month. I don't believe that shop is even open anymore.

I agree that hosting events is the way to keep customers interested, but that comes down to an individual effort because it has no support from GW. And frankly, the same is true of the Facebook pages. Most of them (including GW's) are automatically generated by Facebook and have no affiliation. They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.

As an aside to this, my local GW store is run by a really great guy. Really enthusiastic, loves the games and settings etc.

Back when I got back into 40K and Fantasy (end of 5th/beginning of 6th of 40K) he had two 6'x4' tables for people to come in on Thursdays and game until he closed. He had beginner stuff in the mornings of Saturdays and then big games in the afternoon which would alternate by week from 40K to Fantasy to LOTR. I can remember over the summer after the release of 6th there was escalating doubles campaigns for 40K (which was, miraculously, won by me and another Tau player. We even managed to scrape a draw against the Newcrons ) and Fantasy (which I won with my Dark Elves, woot!).

Now, he has two 4'x4' tables for teaching beginners only and can only run big games for certain events. You are no longer allowed to go in and game on a thursday just because. The only gaming allowed in the store is the few big events he's allowed to put on, unless you are a total newbie who needs to learn the rules. These changes are because of GWs new rules for their stores and they suck.

What are GW's new rules for their stores? Just curious, didn't know you couldn't play in them anymore. I don't go by my GW store very often.

By the way, I agree with you that the 2015 codex releases are massive improvements for competitive or dedicated players, as there are way, way more tools and variety in all of this year's codices. I also really love how the new rules encourage (but don't force) playing factions in a style consistent with their fluff by giving significant, but not game-breaking advantages to using those forces.

I read through a big chunk of the Dark Angels rules section yesterday, and that's an example of a FANTASTIC codex release. I think they hit that one out of the ballpark, especially compared to the previous codex. It has the perfect balance of power level (competitive with any codex now, including Craftworld), versatility, and internal balance.

I don't think there's been a single 2015 book that I haven't liked yet, with the weakest being Harlequins, because as cool as they are, it's not really complete enough to be a full faction, and the next being Imperial Knights, because at the end of the day, it's still just 1 model/kit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Balance has never been a huge factor for me. I'd certainly not complain if everything was better balanced, but I'm not a competitive enough player (and fairly used to being stomped even by less problematic armies) to care that much about it.

It also comes up that a more balanced game is better for everyone. Casual players don't lose out on anything and in fact may have more fun because a battle which would have been nigh on impossible to win (due to the units they like being absolutely terrible or whatever) is now a close fought game with lots of epic moments.

On the other hand the game is massively improved for competitive gamers as they now have more tools with which to build their armies, which leads to more varied lists and styles of play.

Yeah, I've always said that balance is actually more important for casual games than for tournaments, as it's the pick-up gamer who gets hurt the most by armies being wildly out of whack.

Balance was a bigger issue for me when I was largely playing pickup games at gaming clubs. By 5th edition, my gaming time had mostly wound up being at tournaments (which were comped, or where I just expected to get curb-stomped anyway so it wasn't a big deal) or at home (where balance isn't an issue as we can fudge things to suit ourselves.

That's spot on, Insaniak.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
The doom of GW had been foretold often.
For many of us when it happens we would have already moved on.

1. Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.[39] (Not to be confused with presentism, which is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas, such as moral standards, are projected into the past.)
2. Appeal to tradition (argumentum ad antiquitatem) – a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true.[80]
3. Chronological snobbery – where a thesis is deemed incorrect because it was commonly held when something else, clearly false, was also commonly held.[85][86]
I could go on, such as the fallacy of assuming that something wasn't true in the past, it must not be true now, but why bother?

Wow you read a lot into that.
Assume laziness in not being succinct enough in what I was trying to say.... my bad.

From the prior sales figures and what hints we have of the present, they should not go out of business at this time and most likely at least in the following year.
What is a core truth of my "fallacy" that a downward trend is observed in their gross sales so without a correction applied the "doom" is anticipated with some measure of inevitability just the timing cannot seem to be figured out from the trend and there has not been a shortage of those voicing opinions / guesses on the date which made me add more "opinion" to that statement probably more for dramatic/comic relief (which appeared to have failed for at least one person).

I have voiced before that I believe Kirby will keep the company healthy enough to pay him dividends until his exit from the company with little planned for after that (staying the course). There is objective evidence that dividends are an important "strategy" to the point of taking out loans. Again, in another thread I found taxation of dividends as income are somewhat less in the UK so this is a great means for him to pay himself.

My opinion / hypothesis based on the measureable expansion of the hobby market (evidence given in other threads happening now... don't make me go find the link...) many GW customers will be persuaded away to purchase other product or at least split their spending dollars with other suppliers. As a market grows with more competing companies overall income decreases due to this split.
By the time GW's revenue reaches critical levels it would be largely due to that lack of customers hence less relevancy = not being missed because we have "moved on".

I could also go on that I tended to be one of those "doom sayers" so I thought it was rather tongue in cheek humor using a classic white-knight statement which lead to a fallacy 101 smack-down... your bad.

I think it's not much more complex than money.

Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.

Bitz services cost money: warehouse space, staff, a couple bitzmobiles, mail order trolls, mistakes in packing, printing catalogs, maintaining a website with thousands of parts codes. Did bitz sales really account for a large sum of money relative to its cost and overhead? If no, then cut.

White Dwarf costs money: orginal art, monthly print runs of a large magazine, staff creating original rules and material, editors sifting through fan made content, photography, scratchbuilding scenery and tables. Did all of this production result in people buying subs and product? If no, then cut.

GTs and RTTs cost money: tourney packets, staffing events, transportation of staff and material, booking venues, "freeloading" Outriders, advertising, awards and trophies, t-shirts. Did any of these events generate a single sale for our retail outlets or webstore? If no, then cut.

Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line.

And that's a stupid way to run a company. Though I guess this is the same GW that believes that advertising is heresy...

 the_Armyman wrote:
Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.

Alternatively, offer product at a discount, or event-exclusive product, to encourage people to spend more at the event.

Or adjust your ticket pricing.

Or find a cheaper venue.

Or use more volunteers.

Or any of a myriad other ways to make the event more profitable.

Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.

To a certain degree, yes. The problem is, it's hard to quantify 'How happy are our customers' into that formula.

It's not at all uncommon for companies to do things that cost them money in the short term, for the benefit of making their customers feel shiny, or promoting brand loyalty.

If those little things that cost you money are what is keeping your customers happy and loyal, what does mathematics tell us will happen when you stop doing those things?

It's actually a part of the problem of being a public company. When you're a private company, you do things that are nice, because at the end of the day, the bottom line matters, but only to a certain extent.

In a public company, if you do things that give you goodwill, those intangible assets don't translate to the balance sheet, and in fact, you're penalized for them, at least in the short term. In the medium term, that advertising and goodwill better translate into someting tangible or you'll have pie on your face, goodwill or not. So you don't do those good deeds unless they're something you really love to do, OR, you're making so much money that the market will love you no matter what you do.

Advertising is a really tough one. One could ask what other miniature companies do to advertise, and other than very low cost Internet stuff and supporting events without spending a lot of money, they don't do much either. It's not a very big market, so things like television, radio are out. I think advertising in other wargaming and miniature magazines is pointless, as anywhere those are carried, White Dwarf is carried as well, and that's a form of advertising (as are the Warhammer/GW stores).

Being an armchair CEO, as a company like GW, I would support co-op advertising with local hobby shops in local papers, so long as they reach certain volumes. For instance, if you're ordering at least an average of $x / month over 12 months, we'll pay for 50% of your local ad buys up to $200 per week, as long as you prominently display Games Workshop and Warhammer on your ad and feature at least GW product game day/event.