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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 11:49:41
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32102/hobby-games-market-climbs-880-million
ICv2 has released the results of its study on the size of the hobby game market in 2014, including the finding that that the market in the U.S. and Canada totaled around $880 million at retail, as reported in the recently released Internal Correspondence #88.
In order to arrive at the estimate for the total industry, we compiled estimates on five individual categories: collectible games, miniatures, board games, card and dice games, and roleplaying games. We found that the collectible games category was by far the largest, at $550 million; miniatures and hobby board games were tied for second, at $125 million each; hobby card and dice games were fourth at $55 million; and RPGs last at $25 million.
Based on information collected during our work on 2014, we revised our estimates upward on two categories and on the overall size of the hobby games market for 2013 (see "Hobby Games Market Hits $700 Million"): we now believe hobby board games were around $100 million in 2013, hobby card and dice games were $45 million, and the total hobby games market was around $735 million.
Regardless, even with the higher estimates for 2013, the growth rate was a robust 20%, with RPGs growing the fastest, at a 67% rate; and miniatures the lowest growth category, with flat sales in 2014 compared to 2013.
We define "hobby games" as those games produced for a "gamer" market, generally (although not always) sold primarily in the hobby channel of game and card specialty stores. We define the "hobby games market" as the market for those games regardless of whether they’re sold in the hobby channel or other channels.
We also report on the Spring season in the hobby game market, and found that sales continued to be strong across categories. Collectible games were particularly strong as n extra Magic: The Gathering release from Wizards of the Coast, more Dice Masters from WizKids, and the launch of Force of Will joined strong sales from Pokemon, Legends of the Five Rings, and Bushiroad’s Cardfight!! Vanguard, Weiss Schwartz, and Future Card Buddyfight.
Star Wars is making an impact in four categories, with games based on the powerhouse property in the top five in three of them.
ICv2 published its hobby game bestseller charts in the new issue, covering all five categories.
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32100/top-collectible-games-spring-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32099/top-10-card-dice-games-spring-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32098/top-10-board-games-spring-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32097/top-5-roleplaying-games-spring-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32096/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2015
D & D claims the #1 spot for RPGs, knocking off Pathfinder.
Mini games wise....
1
Warhammer 40k
Games Workshop
2
Star Wars X-Wing
Fantasy Flight Games
3
Star Wars Armada
Fantasy Flight Games
4
Warmachine
Privateer Press
5
Hordes
Privateer Press
..hmm ...P'raps it's time for PP to start worrying then eh ?
Be interesting to see if, in a few months time Age of Sigmar is on there at all.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 11:56:45
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Calculating Commissar
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They have an estimated total of non-collectible miniatures games as hitting $125m at retail in US/Canada, about double (IIRC) what GW makes in North America. But that doesn't cover GW's actual stores and direct sales.
That certainly sounds like GW doesn't have a lot of the market over there.
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 11:57:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 12:14:34
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps
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Herzlos wrote:
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
Indeed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that when Episode VII drops, X-Wing and Armada are going to be knocking on 40k's door...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 12:16:40
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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zedmeister wrote:Herzlos wrote:
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
Indeed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that when Episode VII drops, X-Wing and Armada are going to be knocking on 40k's door...
Yes the new Star Wars movie is going to bring in a lot of new costumes. Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't expect AoS to make the top 5.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 12:18:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 12:43:58
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I think the most interesting thing is the change there has been since last summer
Summer 2014
1 Warhammer 40k Games Workshop
2 Star Wars X-Wing Fantasy Flight Games
3 Warmachine Privateer Press
4 Star Trek Attack Wing WizKids/NECA
5 Hordes Privateer Press
with star trek attack wing vanishing,
suggesting that there is a fair degree of volatility in the market too (my guess is PPs sales are pretty flat and its changes in sales of the pre-paint games that have changed significantly)... It's also interesting that Armada does not seem to have canabalised Xwing in any significant way
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 12:51:45
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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Why don't they group Warmachine and Hordes into just one game?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 12:52:23
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero
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I would not be surprised to see FF at the top eventually.
They have use of one of the biggest IPs going at the moment and its the IP and the collectible models that are driving most of the sales, that would somewhat also explain why one does not eat into the other.
The rules and the games themselves seem pretty much irrelevant in that respect.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:01:39
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Herzlos wrote:They have an estimated total of non-collectible miniatures games as hitting $125m at retail in US/Canada, about double ( IIRC) what GW makes in North America. But that doesn't cover GW's actual stores and direct sales.
That certainly sounds like GW doesn't have a lot of the market over there.
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
They state it is an estimate of the game market which suggests that they have taken GWs direct sales into account.
They estimate the $125M overall for the sector and GWs own reported US sales are circa $60M, so it is a fair old chunk by any reckoning.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:06:34
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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I think it has to do with something with one of the creators of warmachine leaving the company and not having to pay him for the royalties of hordes which he did not create.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 13:07:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:13:46
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Calculating Commissar
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notprop wrote:Herzlos wrote:They have an estimated total of non-collectible miniatures games as hitting $125m at retail in US/Canada, about double ( IIRC) what GW makes in North America. But that doesn't cover GW's actual stores and direct sales.
That certainly sounds like GW doesn't have a lot of the market over there.
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
They state it is an estimate of the game market which suggests that they have taken GWs direct sales into account.
They estimate the $125M overall for the sector and GWs own reported US sales are circa $60M, so it is a fair old chunk by any reckoning.
It's an estimate* of the state of the hobby based on feedback from their distributor/retail network. GW's direct sales won't be part of that because they would never share the information.
It'll cover the sales of any retailer/distributor in their network that sells GW's stuff though, which accounts for approx 33% of GW's sales.
So GW reports sales as $60M, $20M is from independents. Assuming all of those independents are part of ICV2, that accounts for $20M of the $125M in sales, or 16% best case.
Then add in direct sales from everyone else, and any independents who aren't with ICV2, and any other channels (like X-Wing from Bookstores) and that 16% drops further.
*I've no idea if that's an estimate of sales in their network, or using sales in their network to extrapolate out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 13:14:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:22:18
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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It's an estimate of the market. A distributer doesn't need to estimate their own turnover as it is known to them.
I also (admittedly without knowing them) do not think that ICv2 are a $1B+ company. It seems all out of scale. So basically no.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:30:47
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Calculating Commissar
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ICV2 isn't a $1B+ company, no. I believe they are a news company for trade groups, so the sales aren't going through them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 13:40:30
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Chute82 wrote: I think it has to do with something with one of the creators of warmachine leaving the company and not having to pay him for the royalties of hordes which he did not create. In addition, as they're separate product lines, they get separate entries.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 14:05:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 14:49:30
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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The New Miss Macross!
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I'm a bit surprised at just how small their entire RPG market estimate is. That feels way off to me but I don't obviously have anything to back that up beyond my "gut". $25 million in retail sales for ALL tabletop rpg products sold from every source for 2014? And that is a 67% increase from the year before meaning that 2013 the number was only $15 million? I know it's a niche market but that feels underestimated to me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:06:54
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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How would they track RPG sales through Amazon or Barnes and Noble?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:09:51
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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warboss wrote:I'm a bit surprised at just how small their entire RPG market estimate is. That feels way off to me but I don't obviously have anything to back that up beyond my "gut". $25 million in retail sales for ALL tabletop rpg products sold from every source for 2014? And that is a 67% increase from the year before meaning that 2013 the number was only $15 million? I know it's a niche market but that feels underestimated to me. RPGs don't sell the way other games do. Players are generally only buying the books they need and most of the rest is bought from products that aren't counted as " RPG product" in sales reports. Yes, you get the people who buy absolutely every book and have massive libraries, but that's few of us. We're generally not buying armies or decks of books. Look at it this way: An average sized GW army costs ~$500+ USD. Sure, you get some people who spend that much on each set of RPG books, but it's not the norm for RPGers like it is with, say, 40K players or serious Magic players. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ask. It's how they get the rest of their data, too. Smart assing aside, Amazon and B&N keep track of that sort of thing just as much as an other company. There's a reason RPGs have grown from 1-2 shelves in B&N stores to having an entire display/shelving unit and it's not because there's more of them than there used to be.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 15:18:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:26:20
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?
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So, essentially, 40K is number one, Star Wars is number two, and WarmaHordes is number 3. I wonder what 4 and 5 are?
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"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:38:42
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tannhauser42 wrote:So, essentially, 40K is number one, Star Wars is number two, and WarmaHordes is number 3. I wonder what 4 and 5 are?
#4 is likely STAW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:39:38
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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The New Miss Macross!
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Platuan4th wrote: warboss wrote:I'm a bit surprised at just how small their entire RPG market estimate is. That feels way off to me but I don't obviously have anything to back that up beyond my "gut". $25 million in retail sales for ALL tabletop rpg products sold from every source for 2014? And that is a 67% increase from the year before meaning that 2013 the number was only $15 million? I know it's a niche market but that feels underestimated to me.
RPGs don't sell the way other games do. Players are generally only buying the books they need and most of the rest is bought from products that aren't counted as " RPG product" in sales reports. Yes, you get the people who buy absolutely every book and have massive libraries, but that's few of us. We're generally not buying armies or decks of books.
Look at it this way: An average sized GW army costs ~$500+ USD. Sure, you get some people who spend that much on each set of RPG books, but it's not the norm for RPGers like it is with, say, 40K players or serious Magic players.
I'm fully aware of the differences between the two (not trying to sound insulted/insulting with this comment but I realize it sounds that way) but that isn't the point. I know the data is old but the D&D brand years ago was worth $25 million a year ALONE and that obviously isn't including every other RPG company out there making both physical and digital books.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315975-WotC-DDI-4E-and-Hasbro-Some-History
It's really a $25-30 million business, especially since Wizards isn't given credit for the licensing revenue of the D&D computer games.
Now I'd assume that the numbers are down significantly from that as it was during the 3.5 boom years and followed by the rep and community damaging 4th edition era... but to be down so much so that the entire industry in 2013 was $15 million and WOTC's d&d brand was just a part of that? As I said, their estimates really don't feel right to me. In any case, I'm guessing the dumping of the relatively unpopular and divisive 4th edition and coming out with a community vetted 5th helped both the industry and WOTC specifically (although I haven't personally tried it yet).
Ask. It's how they get the rest of their data, too. 
I suspect that there is a fair amount of wild ass guessing (WAG) involved as well. Amazon doesn't to my knowledge give out that info and neither does Barnes. I have seen relative sales rankings in categories but not absolute numbers of sales attached to them. Do you have a link to show where they do or a link to show that ICV actually got their info from the source instead of WAGing?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:49:28
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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It's the same every year!
ICV is not a scientifically validated, forensically examined piece of accounting.
It is, however, a useful weathervane.
Whoever they asked last year, the year before that etc, also probably got asked this year and I'm sure if there were some significant difference in the way the information had been gathered likely to influence the result, they'd have mentioned it.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if the industry is worth 800m or 80, useful comparisons can be drawn against previous reports.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
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Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:49:58
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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warboss wrote: Platuan4th wrote: warboss wrote:I'm a bit surprised at just how small their entire RPG market estimate is. That feels way off to me but I don't obviously have anything to back that up beyond my "gut". $25 million in retail sales for ALL tabletop rpg products sold from every source for 2014? And that is a 67% increase from the year before meaning that 2013 the number was only $15 million? I know it's a niche market but that feels underestimated to me.
RPGs don't sell the way other games do. Players are generally only buying the books they need and most of the rest is bought from products that aren't counted as " RPG product" in sales reports. Yes, you get the people who buy absolutely every book and have massive libraries, but that's few of us. We're generally not buying armies or decks of books.
Look at it this way: An average sized GW army costs ~$500+ USD. Sure, you get some people who spend that much on each set of RPG books, but it's not the norm for RPGers like it is with, say, 40K players or serious Magic players.
I'm fully aware of the differences between the two (not trying to sound insulted/insulting with this comment but I realize it sounds that way) but that isn't the point. I know the data is old but the D&D brand years ago was worth $25 million a year ALONE and that obviously isn't including every other RPG company out there making both physical and digital books.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315975-WotC-DDI-4E-and-Hasbro-Some-History
It's really a $25-30 million business, especially since Wizards isn't given credit for the licensing revenue of the D&D computer games.
Now I'd assume that the numbers are down significantly from that as it was during the 3.5 boom years and followed by the rep and community damaging 4th edition era... but to be down so much so that the entire industry in 2013 was $15 million and WOTC's d&d brand was just a part of that? As I said, their estimates really don't feel right to me. In any case, I'm guessing the dumping of the relatively unpopular and divisive 4th edition and coming out with a community vetted 5th helped both the industry and WOTC specifically (although I haven't personally tried it yet).
Ask. It's how they get the rest of their data, too. 
I suspect that there is a fair amount of wild ass guessing (WAG) involved as well. Amazon doesn't to my knowledge give out that info and neither does Barnes. I have seen relative sales rankings in categories but not absolute numbers of sales attached to them. Do you have a link to show where they do or a link to show that ICV actually got their info from the source instead of WAGing?
ICV2 themselves state that these are estimates based on the numbers they receive from a number of stores(that they contact directly) around North America as well as several distributors(some of which I know for a fact that B&N use to get some of their product by having seen their boxes show up in receiving departments at the stores I have worked). In no way is it meant to be a be all, end all or truly accurate numbers. For example, GW refuses(from what I understand) to supply them with sales numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro and Amazon likewise didn't provide their numbers(assuming ICV2 asked them).
The "Ask." response was more meant to be tongue in cheek than a real answer, though many large companies are still willing to give independent data gatherers like ICV2 estimates like that. It's all about whether they actually asked or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:57:42
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Hunter with Harpoon Laucher
Castle Clarkenstein
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Herzlos wrote:They have an estimated total of non-collectible miniatures games as hitting $125m at retail in US/Canada, about double ( IIRC) what GW makes in North America. But that doesn't cover GW's actual stores and direct sales.
That certainly sounds like GW doesn't have a lot of the market over there.
I think FFG's ship games will be in that top 5 list for a long time.
Remember that ICV2 is published by Diamond Comics. So their numbers can be slightly skewed.
As you pointed out, it doesn't inclue mailorder and sales to stores by GW. Or the sales through the GW stores themselves.
For FLGS: Discount direct is 45%. Discount through the best miniature distributor is 40%. Discount through diamond/alliance is 35%. Any store doing non-trivial business in GW models goes direct, or through E-figures.
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....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/20 15:58:35
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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The New Miss Macross!
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Platuan4th wrote:
ICV2 themselves state that these are estimates based on the numbers they receive from a number of stores(that they contact directly) around North America as well as several distributors(some of which I know for a fact that B&N use to get some of their product by having seen their boxes show up in receiving departments at the stores I have worked). In no way is it meant to be a be all, end all or truly accurate numbers. For example, GW refuses(from what I understand) to supply them with sales numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro and Amazon likewise didn't provide their numbers(assuming ICV2 asked them).
The "Ask." response was more meant to be tongue in cheek than a real answer, though many large companies are still willing to give independent data gatherers like ICV2 estimates like that. It's all about whether they actually asked or not.
GW's numbers are readily available from their yearly reports (although they wouldn't include RPG data other than as a portion of the licensing income since FFG makes their RPGs). I would be surprised if Hasbro, Amazon, or anyone gave that sort of date to a distributor (which is what ICV basically is a subsidiary of) and risk that info getting out to competitors. Eh, to each his own. I'm taking the absolute numbers with a big winter roadside DOT stockpile of salt. About the only thing I could see manufacturer(s) giving out would be what percent of their total production that particular distributor gets and them extrapolating from there to other manufacturers as well and then to the industry as a whole... Automatically Appended Next Post: Azreal13 wrote:It's the same every year!
ICV is not a scientifically validated, forensically examined piece of accounting.
It is, however, a useful weathervane.
Whoever they asked last year, the year before that etc, also probably got asked this year and I'm sure if there were some significant difference in the way the information had been gathered likely to influence the result, they'd have mentioned it.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if the industry is worth 800m or 80, useful comparisons can be drawn against previous reports.
That is what I use them for as well. I don't trust the absolute sales numbers they give for the whole industry (the vast majority of which is obviously NOT them) but I do trust their relative numbers like annual growth and their polled relative category "best sellers". If their own sales increase 30% for a given year as one of the biggest distributors, it's likely that the industry as a whole increased as well (and provides a stark contrast to GW's flat or declining numbers for the same years). Automatically Appended Next Post: mikhaila wrote:
Remember that ICV2 is published by Diamond Comics. So their numbers can be slightly skewed.
As you pointed out, it doesn't inclue mailorder and sales to stores by GW. Or the sales through the GW stores themselves.
For FLGS: Discount direct is 45%. Discount through the best miniature distributor is 40%. Discount through diamond/alliance is 35%. Any store doing non-trivial business in GW models goes direct, or through E-figures.
Did they include Kickstarter as well in that? I'll have to peek if they mentioned it. Also, doesn't WOTC do alot of sales direct? Mikhaila, would you say that they're one of the biggest distributors out there in tabletop gaming? They seem more on the comics side given their origins and I'd suspect Alliance is the biggest dog in the tabletop gaming niche.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 16:03:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 03:55:12
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Infiltrating Prowler
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Herzlos wrote:
It's an estimate* of the state of the hobby based on feedback from their distributor/retail network. GW's direct sales won't be part of that because they would never share the information.
It'll cover the sales of any retailer/distributor in their network that sells GW's stuff though, which accounts for approx 33% of GW's sales.
So GW reports sales as $60M, $20M is from independents. Assuming all of those independents are part of ICV2, that accounts for $20M of the $125M in sales, or 16% best case.
Then add in direct sales from everyone else, and any independents who aren't with ICV2, and any other channels (like X-Wing from Bookstores) and that 16% drops further.
*I've no idea if that's an estimate of sales in their network, or using sales in their network to extrapolate out.
The $125M is at retail, so that means it is the total of what the stores sell, not what GW makes from that stores sale. So the GW's number is likely 35 - 45% higher. From GW's 2014 report, they had 56% of their North American sales from independents.They reported 32.6M GBP in North American sales. So they would have made ~$28.5M from that which would mean about well over $40M. Add on top the $14M they make from their own stores and GW is sitting at probably $55M or 44% of the market.
I don't see why they wouldn't include GW store sales in this figure. It would be like presenting a figure for the total retail sales in the cell phone market, but exclude Apple Store sales since they are owned by Apple. Though I do know for the rankings, they don't factor in GW store sales.
Noticed this is also the first time they breakdown growth by sector. It looks like the 15 - 20% growth numbers being tossed out previous years might have not been as across the board as previously thought.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/21 03:56:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 05:06:13
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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My understanding is that GW are not included because GW refuse to answer the questionnaire.
GW's revenue can be found in their annual report, but it is no longer split geographically, however we can make a guess at the split by referring to earlier years.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 05:55:10
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Painting Within the Lines
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Chute82 wrote:Yes the new Star Wars movie is going to bring in a lot of new costumes.
Well, cosplay is a significant part of the Star Wars fandom and the new movie will have new characters, so new costumes are obviously going to happen. I wonder what FFG will produce as Ep7 tie-ins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 08:52:27
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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No sign of the 40K RPG's in the Top 5 for the first time in a long time. Disappointing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/21 08:52:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 09:19:17
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Good to see it spelled out that miniatures is flat, even if the broader category is growing. People too often wrongly quoted ICv2 for the false argument of "GW is shrinking in a growing market". Miniatures just isn't going anywhere. It's fighting over slices of a non-growing pie.
And with CCGs being nearly 2/3 of the market, X-Wing style miniature-games/CCG-Hybrids clearly offer huge potential (though you can still bungle it, see Star Trek).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 09:46:55
Subject: ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Fixture of Dakka
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Well, interesting takeaway -- we have 2 numbers for 2014. GW's sales is about 32.6M GBP, or $51M USD (in US/Canada -- for the full year ended Jun 2014, but it's not like the second half of the year was radically different). Of those sales, 36% were through Trade, so that percentage is discounted 40% -- but surely the the independent will sale sell product at a markup. 36% * $51M = $18.4M $18.4M / 0.40 = 45.9M Suggested Retail 45.9M * 0.85 =39M Discounted Retail (assuming 15% discount from MSRP on average through this channel) $51M - $8.4M = $36.6M Full Retail ( GW Stores and Mail Order) 36.6+ 39= $75.6M sales related to GW product in 2014 The total amount for miniatures market is $125m. So GW's sales comprised approximately 60% of the miniatures market. And probably 90%+ of that is 40k. TLDR -- 40k miniatures account for half of every dollar consumers spend on miniatures. Automatically Appended Next Post: Wonderwolf wrote:Good to see it spelled out that miniatures is flat, even if the broader category is growing. People too often wrongly quoted ICv2 for the false argument of " GW is shrinking in a growing market". Miniatures just isn't going anywhere. It's fighting over slices of a non-growing pie. And with CCGs being nearly 2/3 of the market, X-Wing style miniature-games/ CCG-Hybrids clearly offer huge potential (though you can still bungle it, see Star Trek). Yeah, I've argued this over and over again as a *possibility*. This is much more clear now that it is spelled out. On the other hand.... holy card games, batman!
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/21 10:02:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/21 09:57:28
Subject: Re:ICv2 : HOBBY GAMES MARKET CLIMBS TO $880 MILLION
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Platuan4th wrote: Chute82 wrote:
I think it has to do with something with one of the creators of warmachine leaving the company and not having to pay him for the royalties of hordes which he did not create.
In addition, as they're separate product lines, they get separate entries.
It's one game though, and for this kind of survey they really should be tracked together.
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