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Well.. I ask my question again.

How do these formations stand up against each other? I'm genuinely curious to see what people think.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well.. I ask my question again.

How do these formations stand up against each other? I'm genuinely curious to see what people think.

Are we talking just the formations themselves?

The Gladius gets to use an additional use of a Combat Doctrine, cool but not necessarily huge, it gets extra free transports if you take two of the same core subformation, the problem is this is only even possible in larger games and works best at points levels way higher than normal games. It can be built around to work in typical games, but relative to the other detachments is harder to abuse.

The Eldar Warhost counts all run moves as 6". Useful, but doesn't overwhelmingly change the mobility of the army, nor does it change the resiliency and firepower of the army, and doesn't synergize with subformation bonuses in and of itself.

The AdMech War Convocation is the closest one in power level to the Necron Decurion, allowing all units to benefit from Canticles of the Omnissiah, making all unit upgrades free, and allowing them to ignore the Gets Hot! rule. This one is pretty insane.

The DA one I don't have in front of me right now

The Decurion +1 RP bonus seems somewhat minimal at first, but synergizes with every single unit and stacks with the capabilities offered by the subformations exceedingly well, resulting in a drastic increase in survivability. The fact that it makes basically everything better, and stacks with other abilities that likewise are widespread from the subformations, is what makes it so powerful, particularly on top of the changes to RP from the previous book.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The Decurion +1 RP bonus seems somewhat minimal at first, but synergizes with every single unit and stacks with the capabilities offered by the subformations exceedingly well, resulting in a drastic increase in survivability. The fact that it makes basically everything better, and stacks with other abilities that likewise are widespread from the subformations, is what makes it so powerful, particularly on top of the changes to RP from the previous book.

Point of correction. Decurion only gives +1 RP to units with the RP rule. The Decurion does not give vehicles any kind of RP. (the Decurion does give a benefit to vehicles, but since noone bitches about that, I will not spell it oiut)

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

The Decurion +1 RP bonus seems somewhat minimal at first, but synergizes with every single unit and stacks with the capabilities offered by the subformations exceedingly well, resulting in a drastic increase in survivability. The fact that it makes basically everything better, and stacks with other abilities that likewise are widespread from the subformations, is what makes it so powerful, particularly on top of the changes to RP from the previous book.

Point of correction. Decurion only gives +1 RP to units with the RP rule. The Decurion does not give vehicles any kind of RP. (the Decurion does give a benefit to vehicles, but since noone bitches about that, I will not spell it oiut)

Right, yes it does not give RP to vehicles or anything of the like.

So. .. no-one bothered by the hellforged hunting pack? Cos I'm totally planning to run that

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So. .. no-one bothered by the hellforged hunting pack? Cos I'm totally planning to run that

Do it dude, Go for it and don't look back!

Tbh I thought the last Necron dex was pretty strong, but that was because I ran veiltek/stormtek courts, anni-barges, CCBs, nightscythes, wraiths with D-Lords and scarabs... all of which incidentally, aside from the wraiths got seriously nerfed or completely disappeared.

I will say that I'm incredibly surprised that people are saying Necron Decurion because of every army being the same. The compulsory units for the Decurion come to below 350pts minumum whereas Gladius, Lions Blade and War Convocation have much higher points costs in compulsory units. That would suggest that both Eldar and Necron detachments are going to be more varied when using these.

I play Necrons but not Decurion (no bikes). I've played against Decurion a few times and it is pretty annoying. Played against the Warhost a few times and that whole dex is incredibly strong, not just wraithknights, wraiths and jetbikes like some people believe. I've not actually played against Lions Blade or the War Convocation yet, but definitely not looking forward to the war convo.

I want people to judge how OP these are now in the current meta based on all other armies not juat against the other 4. After all, we don't ignore BA, SW, GK, CSM, Daemons, Renegades, IG, Tau, Sisters, Inquisition, IKs, DE, Harlequins, Orks or Nids when discussing balance, tactics or general gameplay usually. Or SM, Eldar, Crons, DA, Skitarii, Ad Mech or IKs not using these formations either.

Holds DE and CSM codex close to chest "one day, one day we to shall have threads created over our broken formations, and there will be much trollage"

The whole Necron codex is just annoying to play against but for me it's probably because it's the army I've faced most in my 2 years of WH. It's funny that people say space marines are the most common army and I've only faced them a total of 4 times (though I do play DAs so there's that)

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Holds DE and CSM codex close to chest "one day, one day we to shall have threads created over our broken formations, and there will be much trollage"

Exalted and

Copy Paste (insert Ork Codex)

Getting double the firepower (bs4->bs5=twice as many hits) via the aspect warrior host vs. doubling the survivability (Decurion) vs. doubling the models (Gladius). If anyone thinks that ANY of these things are ok, they need to reevaluate their perspective.

What does the aspect host have to do with the warhost's power?

Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

 Vaktathi wrote:
The DA one I don't have in front of me right now

IIRC it's just Gladius but with different auxiliaries and full BS Overwatch instead of Combat Doctrines.
I didn't really pay attention to the MFDs because I would find playing Gladius or Lion's Blade dull, cheesy and expensive (especially the latter as I'm more interested in "DeathRaven" then "Greenwing" setups, I'm happy to have a CAD full of non-Bike/Term stuff but I'm not willing to build my army around it). The others are in factions I'd never play (Necrons are baddies, Eldar don't interest me at all and I outright hate the AdMech) so all that would be relevant would be if facing them, which I'm not sure I'd do, I might actually refuse to play against them as that sounds frightening (in fact being on this forum has scared me out of wanting to fight against Necrons or Eldar period).

 TheSilo wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

Take away the 25pt Power fist, the 5pt storm bolter... and actually it seems that Terminators are cheaper than Necron warriors!

full BS overwatch, another way for non assault armies to pick on tyrnids and orks and Blood angels. way to go GW

Rihgu wrote:
Take away the 25pt Power fist, the 5pt storm bolter... and actually it seems that Terminators are cheaper than Necron warriors!

Yes, but they HAVE both of those, and probably wouldn't function properly without them (or at least something in their place).

Rihgu wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

Take away the 25pt Power fist, the 5pt storm bolter... and actually it seems that Terminators are cheaper than Necron warriors!

I guess gauss flayers are worth 0 points. Also, your math suggests that 2+ save termies without powerfists would cost the same as Space Marines

 greyknight12 wrote:
Getting double the firepower (bs4->bs5=twice as many hits) via the aspect warrior host vs. doubling the survivability (Decurion) vs. doubling the models (Gladius). If anyone thinks that ANY of these things are ok, they need to reevaluate their perspective.

But aren't they balanced just if you forge some narrative?

 TheSilo wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

Take away the 25pt Power fist, the 5pt storm bolter... and actually it seems that Terminators are cheaper than Necron warriors!

I guess gauss flayers are worth 0 points. Also, your math suggests that 2+ save termies without powerfists would cost the same as Space Marines

Do you dispute that Power fists cost 25pts and Storm Bolters cost 5 points? I have no idea how much of a Necron warrior's cost is their Gauss Flayer, as I don't know of any entries listing the points cost of one.

I just know that whenever people compare units to eachother they use the points costs of the war gear/special rule to dictate how under/overcosted the unit is. Prime example: Grey Knights. Strike Squads get Psyker Mastery Level 1 (25 pts!) and Force Weapons (10pts) and Storm Bolters (5pts), so they're an absolute STEAL when compared to Tactical marines.

However, my primary point was that Necron Warriors are paying for durability + infantry small arms offensive capability. Terminators are paying for durability + heavy infantry offensive capability (and deep strike! But I didn't have a points cost for that), so it isn't exactly fair to point out the points discrepancy when discussing similar durability, since points don't account for only durability.

Rihgu, you're making the assumption that a power fist is worth 25 points both on a terminator and a chapter master.

This is not the case.

Rihgu wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Necron Warrior - 13 points

Space Marine Terminator - 35 points

Take away the 25pt Power fist, the 5pt storm bolter... and actually it seems that Terminators are cheaper than Necron warriors!

Your assumption that arming a whole unit of slow moving 1 wound t4 models with 25 point powerfists each is an efficient and effective use of points is where both you and GW are making an error.

On topic: I believe war convo and battle co- gladius builds are pretty super contenders, but just going off the detachment bonuses, the decurion lifts the most weight. You can play a bad gladius like one Demi-company and some of the fairly bad auxiliaries. War convo needs some mobility to really be top table worthy, which is why you see many of them take drop pods from a marine detachment to stick their vanguard and katas in. Decurion is a good enough detachment that it literally made one of our bad "never win" newbie players into one of our top table "barely ever lose" players overnight. I haven't seen any of the other detachments cause that kind of transformation.

Like someone mentioned earlier, when I get matched up against crons in a tourney, I know immediately that they're running rec legion/harvest/d cult, although since the ITC just made duplicate detachments a thing, I estimate double harvest will find its way into some lists soon.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Getting double the firepower (bs4->bs5=twice as many hits) via the aspect warrior host vs. doubling the survivability (Decurion) vs. doubling the models (Gladius). If anyone thinks that ANY of these things are ok, they need to reevaluate their perspective.

It is true that the Aspect Host doubles the ability of a squad of Aspect Warriors to hit, but to truly double the firepower it would have to increase the ability of the squad to wound as well. Keep in mind that most Aspect Warriors are also T3 and have a 3+ same at best. Not exactly hard to kill.

The Demi-Company gives you free metal boxes or soda cans. They die just as easily as any other metal box or soda can. Also, they won't have the points to go above 5-man sqads in any of these transports, to the overall firepower is rather limited. The only thing worthwhile is the sheer number of scoring units.

The Decurion is by far the biggest jump in terms of power. An extra 50% durability for Necron units means that the Necron army is an implacable brick of a force. Unless you are one of the few armies that can outshoot them, you have to either otmaeuver and outscore them or rush them down in CC.

The War Convocation is powerful, but relies on a specific combination of otherwise sub-par units. It only becomes truly ridiculous when you add allies into the mix.

As semi-mentioned, those equipment cost numbers are only for specific units. Going by that logic a Dark Angels Lightning Claw costs 5 points, 10 points AND 15 points at the same time!

I think these formations are all OP compared to the pre-necron books.

Compare to each other, I think they're about even.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The Gladius gets to use an additional use of a Combat Doctrine, cool but not necessarily huge, it gets extra free transports if you take two of the same core subformation, the problem is this is only even possible in larger games and works best at points levels way higher than normal games. It can be built around to work in typical games, but relative to the other detachments is harder to abuse.

Don't forget Objective Secured for everything.

niv-mizzet wrote:
[Your assumption that arming a whole unit of slow moving 1 wound t4 models with 25 point powerfists each is an efficient and effective use of points is where both you and GW are making an error.

This right here. Terminators are no longer the pinnacle of durability, and they really havent been since like early 5th (they spiked again in 6th but Power Axes dealt with that)

I mean 1 Wound 2+/5++ is just... not impressive. In a world where T5 2+/Jink/3++/FNP units exist, and in fairly decent numbers, Terminators are no longer the standard in durable units. Honestly i think Thundercav or SM Command on Bikes should be the new "TEQ"

Also im gonna defend the Ad Mech, mostly because, while free Wargear is freakin awesome and usually nets you about an extra 300-400 points, there is a lot of tax units. From the Skitarii alone, and assuming minimum unit size you've dropped.600 points, 345 of which are on 2 units you probably werent gonna take anyway (the Ruststalkers and the Infiltrators) running that alos prevents you from taking advantage of the Skitariis main advantage, really good base infantry. Now granted its more of a Cult Mechanicus list anyway, so the Skitarii are in more of a supporting role, but even so i wouldnt run it, and thats because i can do fine without it. I dont need Plasma, i have Heavy Grav Cannons, my Plasma Calivers are in my Warlords squad, and ill just grab and Oathsworn detachment for my Knight.

Really i only see people running it if they happen to have a War Cohort sitting around, whereas the Decurion is almost always being used. I think this says something about the new Cron dex

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Holds DE and CSM codex close to chest "one day, one day we to shall have threads created over our broken formations, and there will be much trollage"

Ill be here waiting for the Sister's turn

So how does sky hammer compare vrs decurion? I've not seen anyone mention that, but it would seem to be a direct counter and from the hate sky hammer has recieved....: it should fare well vrs a decurion. Anyone with expirence on either end of this one?

Doesn't answer the question but it probably wasn't brought up because this thread is focused on the big MFDs and how they compare to each other.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Rihgu, you're making the assumption that a power fist is worth 25 points both on a terminator and a chapter master.

This is not the case.

Actually, you're right. I checked the points costs and 25pts is for a model wearing Power Armor (a la a tactical sergeant). For a model in Terminator armor it is only 10 points.

And it is not an assumption - it is explicit fact according to the codex.

 jasper76 wrote:
All I can say is, after having a gakky codex last edition, and people begging to anyone who would listen to nerf that gakky codex, now that we get a decent one that plays to the fluff, and includes every single nerf every opponent ever asked for, while Eldar and SM get things like free tanks and ranged-D (our ranged D became extinct) , I don't sympathize with the idea the Necron Decurion is OP. Necrons have finally been brought up to par with all the other army's 6th edition codicea, plain and simple.

Except they didn't include every nerf that was asked for. I always maintained that Wraiths were one of the only units that actually really needed a nerf and we all know how they just got dumber.