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 Ashiraya wrote:
It's not. It's like saying they wouldn't train to face Orks because it's not explicitly stated - it's just stated they spend an hour or so per day to train specific tactics against enemy types and species.

Were are you getting this information that they train an hour a day on specific enemies?
you haven't provided any actual evidence and just making assumptions (good ones at that and for certain specific chapters that fight specific targets more often will probably integrate it such as crimson fists against orks but that wouldn't be the case for everyone)

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's not. It's like saying they wouldn't train to face Orks because it's not explicitly stated - it's just stated they spend an hour or so per day to train specific tactics against enemy types and species.

Were are you getting this information that they train an hour a day on specific enemies?
you haven't provided any actual evidence and just making assumptions (good ones at that and for certain specific chapters that fight specific targets more often will probably integrate it such as crimson fists against orks but that wouldn't be the case for everyone)

I assumed you knew this because this is rather basic SM fluff, but here you go just in case.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

See 'Tactical Indoctrination.'

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's not. It's like saying they wouldn't train to face Orks because it's not explicitly stated - it's just stated they spend an hour or so per day to train specific tactics against enemy types and species.

Were are you getting this information that they train an hour a day on specific enemies?
you haven't provided any actual evidence and just making assumptions (good ones at that and for certain specific chapters that fight specific targets more often will probably integrate it such as crimson fists against orks but that wouldn't be the case for everyone)

I assumed you knew this because this is rather basic SM fluff, but here you go just in case.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daily_rituals_of_a_Space_Marine

See 'Tactical Indoctrination.'

Im not seeing anti psyker and psyker 101 or telekenese training. though incredibly generalized to the point that it seems to mostly be general briefings of ideas tactics over actual training.

Though thanks for bringing up this old 3rd edition blerb. its cute.

It's canon, no matter how ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''cute''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' you think it is. 3rd edition is still relevant, it was long after the age of half-eldar librarians.

And no, of course they don't mention psykers. They also have to train to fight tanks, hordes, elite enemies, traitor Astartes, various tactics and forms of warfare, underground battles, underwater battles, void warfare, bike movement, formations, unit protocols...

Absence of specific mention is not absence of evidence. Again, are you going to assume they never train to fight Orks because Orks are not specifically mentioned?

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's canon, no matter how ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''cute''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' you think it is. 3rd edition is still relevant, it was long after the age of half-eldar librarians.

And no, of course they don't mention psykers. They also have to train to fight tanks, hordes, elite enemies, traitor Astartes, various tactics and forms of warfare, underground battles, underwater battles, void warfare, bike movement, formations, unit protocols...

Absence of specific mention is not absence of evidence. Again, are you going to assume they never train to fight Orks because Orks are not specifically mentioned?

I never said it was invalid.
but its nether conclusive.

It should be obvious that specific chapters that go through more void based combat and or based in low G type worlds or space stations would more than likely review low and no G type warfare more often and wound in turn have better reactions to a sudden case of low mass zones. thats for sure. but that wouldn't be the case for every marine. and its certainly within the possibles for marines to get caught off guard though that doesn't last as long.


but instant reaction crotch shots with auto targeting bolters from any marine just sound silly.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
In conclusion, I think your base space marine is better than your base Krogan, but in the same way a well trained/equipped Commissar or Inquisitor can fight a CSM and win, a well trained Krogan could take down a standard marine. The most powerful Marines would demolish the most powerful Krogan though.

In a propaganda text, a Commissar has taken on a CSM and won.

The distinction is important here, because in the propaganda, SM companies capture rebel planets alone.

Also keep in mind Grunt is a genetically engineered Krogan supersoldier. He is not their SM equivalent, of course, but he is not a normal Krogan at all.

Also I'd like to point out that he only killed the Astartes by shoving his chainsword into a hole in the armor that was made by Jurgen. People really tend to forget that important part of the confrontation.

Remember that they are Space MARINES. Ship combat is something they do frequently, and zero-gravity is a very real part of that.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My vote is for the Krogan Battlemaster. Such a beast is, at least, comparable to a Nob.

Lolno. Nobs are straight up superhuman level and have the raw strength to physically rip apart light armor with just their hands. Krogans can be knocked out by a human headbutting them.

But also a brilliant tactician.

Krogan tacticians are actually worse than Orks, considering that Orks understand what combined arms is, and maximize its usage.

Also probably rocking Power Armour equivalent.

Remind me when armor in Mass Effect allows you to take hits from howitzers, tanks, and survive things like getting shot with miniature solar flares.

He'll also have psychic powers. Any of the "paralysis" type powers render a marine as useless as anything else that's a sitting target. Ready access to "haywire" type powers render his tech useless. Plus, Krogan regenerate. Like, put your bloody chunks back together quickly enough and you're a-ok after a little while.

Which only works if the Krogan is intelligent enough to remember he has such powers, nevermind their casting speed leaves him open to be simply shot to pieces. Also for all we know, "haywire" powers may do nothing to the electronics of the Imperium given that they're EMP hardened.

The perceived weakness in-game of the ME weapons is comparable to the perceived in-game weakness of 40k weapons. If every weapon one-shot every other being in existence, it wouldn't be much of a game, nor would it allow any range of failure on the player's part.

Except they are weak. It doesn't matter how much you accelerate a grain of sand, its lack of mass means the weapon will always have fairly pathetic penetration abilities and will just explode on impact. For a competent railgun design, you need slugs that won't disintegrate upon impact.

Space shuttles have nearly had their windshields caved in by what was later determined to be a fleck of paint.

Because space shuttles are made out of what is basically glass dude- if you were to make an armored shuttle, it would require more fuel and thus more money to fly. In the modern day we've already produced ceramic compounds that can no-sell hits from micrometeorites, things that are actually far worse and far more deadly than any mass effect field railgun. It's best that you do actual research before running your mouth.

When you have the technology to alter mass properties, you can accelerate a... one gram... projectile as though its mass were 1% of it's true property. So given that our world has soldier-portable weapons capable of destroying lightly armoured vehicles... and we could then increase that effectiveness by 100 times... we could take down entire platoons of combat-ready vehicles in a single clip

Oh god please tell me you do not actually believe this nonsense. FYI, acceleration has a bell curve in terms of kinetic energy, once you start approaching .C your mass reduces and the damage actually decreases.

The kicker, is that Krogan have access to a black market shotgun that would, according to the in-game fluff, tear any other non-organic's limbs from their shoulders. So, based on the fluff, we're talking about something that should be on-par with at least a Strength 9 shotgun.

What is with people taking 40k's asinine stats seriously? Not only is this the background forum, but the game mechanics mean gak. They exist purely to allow for a semi-balanced game to exist to encourage player growth, otherwise factions like Space Marines, Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos, and Daemons would be even more brutal than their current form. Using 40K TT stats means your argument goes completely out the window, as you're also admitting that you think normal naked humans can flex their biceps to deflect autocannon shots. Also, not only do we not know of any instance of said shotgun doing such to a human, we have such weapons in the modern day. You just brace it like a normal, intelligent person instead of shouldering it like a moron. Not to mention that this also doesn't speak well of Krogan technology, given that such recoil is utterly ridiculous and a signal that one should begin researching recoilless rifles.

Kinetic Barriers, on the other hand, are the counterpoint to that ability to accelerate a projectile. By making the mass-property less, it's easy to stop the projectiles from transferring energy to you. More to the point, a Bolt could not enter your body to explode, as the "mass-reactive" heads would be triggered upon entering the mass-altering fields. At that point...

Doesn't matter. KB's can be overriden by shear amount of energy, which 40k weapons have in spades. Triggering the bolts simply depletes KB's faster and leads to shrapnel flying everywhere. Plus there's the kinetic energy of the round itself, which can range anywhere from subsonic ammo meant for close-quarters to hypersonic rounds that fly at speeds comparable to some Mass Effect weapons anyway.

The equivalent of an Ork Nob in Power armour, with a force field, that has IWND, and unknown Psychic Powers is being hit by something along the lines of a frag grenade.

The feth? No it isn't. Not only is it not comparable to power armor, a force field, IWND, or any game mechanic gak (which again does not actually exist, its' game mechanics, it's there to balance gak) and physic powers we know nothing of how likely the person is to competently use- most likely given that it's Mass Effect, he'll forget he has them most of the time like Jedi in Star Wars and charge for melee.

And Kenetic Barriers are not even remotely close to the power of Iron Halos or a Rosarius- such power fields allow the wearer to get shot by a tank or tank volley fire from lascannons and dark lances and walk such gak off. A Krogan is also not nearly as strong or durable as an Ork- Orks can not only rend metal by their lonesome bodies, but an Ork can survive having virtually every organ in its chest cavity outright vaporized. Heart(s), lungs, liver, stomach, intestines, the whole deal, and walk that injury off. Likewise Space Marines are comparable in durability, with instantaneous healing of all wounds they receive by constantly regenerating scar tissue that plugs any holes that form, and for both Orks and Space Marines the only surefire way to kill one is snapping the brainsteam/removing the head.

Although for Orks this isn't even certain, as Orks sometimes continue to fight even after their brains have been destroyed due to experiencing a Loony Tunes moment- they die when they realize their brain is gone.

Imagine Ork Nobs with access to Tau / Eldar levels of technology. With Psychic Powers. That's a Krogan Battlemaster.

No, because you're outright delusional and clearly know nothing about 40K besides the gakky rules. How many books do you own about 40K out of curiosity? Two? Five? Ten? Thirty? Seventy?

But as you seem to be terribly new to the franchise, I'll give you a rundown. Astartes are absolute nightmares when it comes to combat, capable of moving in bursts of speeds where the human nervous system simply doesn't fire fast enough to physically comprehend them (bursts of short movement from them can look like teleportation), and this is coupled with being strong enough to casually lift a tonne or more without straining or rip apart tank armor with their bare hands. Their nervous system fires fast enough that an Astartes can actually dodge gunfire (of varying velocities, IIRC Ragnar even dodged a hypersonic projectile once), and they can sprint around the speeds of an automobile (40-50 MPH, sometimes even sixty). What they primarily fight, Orks while slower make up by being even stronger as they can rip apart even power armor with just their bare hands. They're also even ludicrously more durable than Space Marines, and can survive being hit with power weapons or even having a power weapon embedded in their brain. Then of course there's the Eldar, who while not as strong are even faster both when it comes to sprinting and dodging projectiles- they're all bullet dodgers and can even parry laser fire like Jedi.

Oh yeah, and Astartes also have a habit of massacring both parties in absurd numbers and losing only when they're just drowned in bodies (Poor Crimson Fists), or they're ambushed (and typically still outnumbered) such as the surprise attack on the depleted Invaders Chapter by Alaitoc to deliver vengeance for their fallen craftworld kin.

The best way to describe Astartes is that they are basically an army of lighter version of Captain America, or just when he isn't going on one of his wild adventures when he beats up the Hulk.

Wyzilla delivers the lore smackdown hard and fast. That's brutal, man.

I'd also point out that the Krogan "takes your shoulder off" shotgun is definitely hyperbole. Not only do we never see it do such a thing, normal humans make a regular habit of beating up Krogans (IIRC Shepard even headbutts a Krogan out cold once) without sustaining horrible casualties or using BFG's, but "It takes yer gurd durm urm urff" is among the most common hyperbolic descriptions of firearms since their inception. I can't even recall how many times I've heard magnum fanboys talking about how their .44 or larger will rip my hands off when firing.

Typically, at best, "it rips your arm off" is a generous description for dislocation of a limb. If even that.

Given that Krogen have such stubby T-Rex arms, I find the idea that they're all that and a bag of chips when it comes to strength a bit amusing.

I mean, their hands can't even reach above their heads (watch them in a few scenes, they have to lean their heads down to scratch the dome of their skulls) so, given that, you know they don't even lift.

Which also reminds me... their armor design is more physically-limiting than the massive pauldrons of a Space Marine's power armor. You can witness this in-game with the clipping issues in certain scenes or the motions the mesh goes through to do certain things.

Here's Wrex. Look at those stunty arms:

Not to mention humans and asari are also seen wielding that weapon without issues.

Shepard does not knock a krogan out cold by headbutting, but she does severely stagger him.

The trouble with any of these "who would win" scenarios, especially when you're comparing relative technology, is that said technology wasn't created in a vacuum. By this I mean that if you look at, say, a Krogan's kinetic barrier you have to remember that it would have been created as a counter to the weapons that it would have faced, which would in turn have been designed to penetrate that type of defence in return.
You see this arms race between offensive weapons and armour throughout history - this type of sword is good against that type of armour, so this type of armour is developed to counter that type of sword, so this type of sword come in to counter that type... and so forth.
Now the problem with these types of "who would win" arguments is that the two levels of technology are so different that to say any one is better than the other is essentially meaningless. It may be that bolt gun rounds are great at penetrating the Krogan's armour but the kinetic barrier is the perfect defence against it, because bolt guns aren't designed to go against that type of technology, and it may be that a Krogan's shotgun, designed to overload kinetic barriers is worthless against power armour.
But ultimately it's the same problem that come up with "Which would win, Samurai or Knight?". As neither was designed to fight the other it's a kinda pointless question.

In terms of pure physiology - pitting the two against each other totally naked, I'd say it would be a lot closer than most people would think. Yes, the Space Marine is designed to be super human, with organ redundancies, more efficient internal organs and whatnot, but the Krogan has all these things naturally - as a product of their evolution, rather than grafted onto a human form.
Quite why evolution deigned to give them such stubby little arms I'm not really so sure.

Because until they were "uplifted" (to fight the Raknai) they were an evolving species. Probably quadrupedal... look at the relatively stumpy lower half of the torso, and the fact that they don't really have hips. They look like tail-less iguanas that just stood up on their hind legs.

Also I just remembered that bolter rounds are capable of killing people without penetrating or exploding by simple impact alone by Horus Rising. Unless Kinetic Barriers negate all the energy of a bolter round impacting, it would still deal enough damage, especially with multiple shots, to send somebody flying back a couple feet and potentially rupturing their organs.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

"I don't know anything about 40k, and therefore post concept art from a game that was never released and thereby isn't even canon!"



Man if you're going to try to make a point, try to actually use material that isn't fan made. Also not that pauldrons don't effect the movement of the arms at all- they're connected by a joint and rotate with the arms and flex upwards. Their mass isn't an issue courtesy to both the strength of a space marine and the face that the armor is powered and has its own synthetic muscles moving the suit. And that's not even the canon appearance of Krogan dude, that's concept art. Stop just randomly pulling images from google and actually bother to check where they come from.

This is an actual, canon, appearance of a Krogan courtesy of it being ported from the game.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

"I don't know anything about 40k, and therefore post concept art from a game that was never released and thereby isn't even canon!"

Spoiler:

Man if you're going to try to make a point, try to actually use material that isn't fan made. Also not that pauldrons don't effect the movement of the arms at all- they're connected by a joint and rotate with the arms and flex upwards. Their mass isn't an issue courtesy to both the strength of a space marine and the face that the armor is powered and has its own synthetic muscles moving the suit. And that's not even the canon appearance of Krogan dude, that's concept art. Stop just randomly pulling images from google and actually bother to check where they come from.

This is an actual, canon, appearance of a Krogan courtesy of it being ported from the game.

Does this suit your fancy better? Notice the nonexistent stubby arms. Also that is concept art from Bioware made during development to my knowledge, so its pretty canon to me.

And how can you assume I know nothing about 40k? If you'd like Id provide pictures of my collection and library to silence that statement. I have posted a CANON piece of artwork from GW below to show how much Space marine proportions can vary. Theres no doubt the image you posted is canon, the problem is GW can't decide if they want a space marine to look hilariously disproportionate or like a big guy in some armor. The image I posted is an example of an extreme. But I guess my point is, GWs varying proportions for Space Marines are . Mass effect on the other hand doesn't have this issue with the Krogan. They are all relatively the same size, minus the warlords who are the largest and most ancient of their race.

Also I made the comment about shoulder pads to highlight the fact that the Krogan's arms only look stubby because you cant truly see where their shoulders begin which is higher up than what you would think (another reason I posted an image of an unarmored Krogan to support this further.)

That picture of Grunt is from Blur, made for the CG trailers, and definitely has longer arms than the in-game model.



This conversation has gotten pretty ridiculous though.

I think the only reason it swung this way because it was brought up that Krogan have tiny T-rex arms and was therefore a detriment in combat. So Oh well they seem to do well for themselves, but I would agree that a marine would have a better reach.

Krogan Battlemaster. The shield tech of Mass Effect plus armor and natural durability would stop boltguns from doing enough damage before the Krogan could get in range to turn the Space Marine in to paste with their biotic battle hammer. Seriously that hammer crushes far deadlier things than mere Astartes.

 Melissia wrote:
Krogan Battlemaster. The shield tech of Mass Effect plus armor and natural durability would stop boltguns from doing enough damage before the Krogan could get in range to turn the Space Marine in to paste with their biotic battle hammer. Seriously that hammer crushes far deadlier things than mere Astartes.

I dunno, the shields could very easily be stripped down by a boltgun. I think biotics would be the main issue with Krogan.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Krogan Battlemaster. The shield tech of Mass Effect plus armor and natural durability would stop boltguns from doing enough damage before the Krogan could get in range to turn the Space Marine in to paste with their biotic battle hammer. Seriously that hammer crushes far deadlier things than mere Astartes.

I dunno, the shields could very easily be stripped down by a boltgun. I think biotics would be the main issue with Krogan.

Well the question would be what can take out that shield. and what is comparable to a 40k themed weapon.

Missile launchers in ME3 take down the shield in one or two hits usually, going off of both SP and MP. However, these aren't boltguns, and have a much higher explosive capacity than boltguns-- think of them as more smiliar to IG missile launchers, probably krak based on the lack of AoE and the need to crash shields instantly (actual grenade weapons in ME3 have a much higher AoE than any of the missiles do). But even after that, they have to get through the armor and natural toughness of the Krogan before the shields go up. I don't think boltguns would do as much damage as missiles.

No, but bolters do have a higher rate of fire than missile launchers.

A bolter's RoF is equivalent to an assault rifle's - I'd say that, given how mass effect guns work, a kinetic barrier could probably deflect about as many bolter shells as it could an equivalent-impact AR's shells.

Of course, that's ignoring the fact that Mass Effect actually has bolters and that they tend to take two shots to knock down the shield on most enemies (The Krysae sniper rifle).

The Krysae is closer to a grenade launcher than a boltgun really. It's not an armor piercing weapon, it's a weapon that's intended to detonate near its target, and damage them with shrapnel and explosive force/heat.

Also, how fast shields go down depends on the difficulty.

A rapid firing bolter would blow a Krogan to pieces. Krogan are not that hard to kill.

 Desubot wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Krogan Battlemaster. The shield tech of Mass Effect plus armor and natural durability would stop boltguns from doing enough damage before the Krogan could get in range to turn the Space Marine in to paste with their biotic battle hammer. Seriously that hammer crushes far deadlier things than mere Astartes.

I dunno, the shields could very easily be stripped down by a boltgun. I think biotics would be the main issue with Krogan.

Well the question would be what can take out that shield. and what is comparable to a 40k themed weapon.

Anything with kinetic impact so... a stubber? A lasgun? A multi-las? Bolters, sniper weapons, grenades..... melta would just melt the person inside the shield. Flamer just sets them on fire, shields are useless against those attacks.

Multi-las would go straight through a kinetic shield, they're explicitly ineffective against lasers.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A rapid firing bolter would blow a Krogan to pieces. Krogan are not that hard to kill.

Actually, Krogan are notoriously hard to kill in the ME3 lore. Wrex talks to Shepard about surviving a fall from orbit, as if it's something Krogans could do (even if most aren't stupid enough to try). Krogans have a lot in common with Orks, including multiple redundant organs (such as a redundant nervous system).