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 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
So I see others posting combining firepower with one unit with a drone controller and a seperate unit of drones. Would this work? I could see a unit of sniper drone controllers acting as a mark'o when combined with a seperate unit of marker drones tagging the same unit.

Thanks,
Brian

Depends on how people end up viewing sharing of rules with Coordinated Fire Power. If USR share, which I believe RAW and RAI they do, then yes. If not, then no.

Is it worth it to take a shield generator on my Buffmander? Its an expensive system, but these days I'm concerned that with all the high strength low AP weaponry around, the 2+ armor from the Iridium suit might not be enough, even if backed up by a stim injector.

Buffmander should go all tank or none. A properly protected buffmander without his defensive perks is still pretty difficult to get rid of.

If you go shield, go the whole nine yards. Get iridium and stims on top of it. It makes him pricy, but ive RARELY had him die because i keep him in a MP crisis suit blob 36" away. The few guns that reach him at that distance cant splat him and rarely have the rate of fire to burn through 4 4++/FNP wounds (especially since i automatically target anything Lascannon-esk for immediate death so they dont last long)

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Is it worth it to take a shield generator on my Buffmander? Its an expensive system, but these days I'm concerned that with all the high strength low AP weaponry around, the 2+ armor from the Iridium suit might not be enough, even if backed up by a stim injector.

I usually prefer the Feel no Pain.

I'm with Vineheart on this one, I either go passive back line Buffmander or Tank Buffmander, very rarely do I go with a mix of the two.

If you plan to throw the Buffmander out in front and soak shots, the 2+/4++/5+++ is much better than the 2+/5+++ option and will help you out a lot. If on the other hand you just want to hide him in the squad and not use him to tank, you can go 3+/5+++ as Stim Injectors are cheap but the Iridium Armour at that point isn't very worthwhile.

If you want, you can even go with two Commanders using a Hunter Contingent and a Retaliation Cadre, instead of a Mark'O, where you can give one the none-shooting stuff with a Stim Injector and throw him in the back of his unit (Missile Suit Squad) in order to bombard, and then have a Plasma Tankmander that still shoots with the squad but has the Irridium, Shield Gen, and Stim on top of his weapons since he'll be closer and probably in the deep striking Retaliation Cadre.

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
So I see others posting combining firepower with one unit with a drone controller and a seperate unit of drones. Would this work? I could see a unit of sniper drone controllers acting as a mark'o when combined with a seperate unit of marker drones tagging the same unit.

Thanks,
Brian

This is where the 40k rule bloat really comes in, from rules like this that aren't defined clearly and as such have many different versions.

How you play this depends completely on your gaming group as there are multiple contradictory rulings on it as of right now. It really sucks :/.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I've wanted Piranhas to be good for years. They're obviously great for harassment and getting from A to B in a hurry, and being able to dump off a few drones to do whatever you like sounds great. They were okay-ish at best as road blocks and objective grabbers prior to the codex, but I feel like they've really taken a hit with Tau's newfound mobility. Granted run+shoot doesn't equal a fast turbo-boosting skimmer, but that extra d6" per turn can make a huge difference, given that it's army-wide.

The new run and shoot is not army wide. It is a 12" buff zone around the commander or or FireBlade for Hunter Cadre units only, and the old one is still a 12" buff around the Ethereal. I would say the Piranha still has a place as the fast grabber, especially as Piranha also get to Flat-out and shoot with in 12" of the commander for melta with an effective threat range of 29/36". I would call that a nasty turn 1 surprise.

Has anyone tried out the Infiltration Cadre? Getting free Seekers is pretty good since you'll usually shoot Markerlights at units where the Seekers are best anyway. I'm also pretty sold on the Piranha now as it contributes a lot to the Hunter Cadre, while also working well with the amount of Markers you gain from the formation, thanks to it being able to carry Seekers and basically give other units +1 BS easily.

However, the problem I see is the Stealth Suits are still a pretty big tax... Right now I'm looking at something like a Hunter Contingent with both a Retaliation and Infiltration Cadre, though I'm very hesitant with the Infiltration Cadre.

I'm also pretty sold on the Piranha now as it contributes a lot to the Hunter Cadre, while also working well with the amount of Markers you gain from the formation, thanks to it being able to carry Seekers and basically give other units +1 BS easily.

I conflict on how useful the "give other units +1 BS" thing really is for a few reasons. Whatever you'd take instead of the Piranha is obviously a unit in its own right, so you only need 1 more unit firing to get the same bonus. I'd wager that it's pretty unlikely for you to fire fewer than 3 units at something that needs to die, anyway. In other words, the 1 unit-->2 units thing only matters if you're only attacking something with one other unit.The other issue isn't really a strike against Piranhas, per se, but more of an overcrowding issue. All the lists I've brainstormed so far are REALLY short on points for luxuries, and when you already have on the order of 250-300 pts of units in an 1850 list dedicated to force multiplication (in my case, a buffmander and a couple markerlight sources), it's tough for me to justify dropping another 40 here and there for an extra BS on 1 unit. On the other hand, it'd be kind of nice to give, say, a unit of Broadsides or a Riptide a better chance to hit without having to commit to massively overkilling whatever they're targeting. Meh. My jury is out. Like I said in a previous post, I really want Piranhas to be awesome.

One thing I'm pretty confident in is that having them take seekers is probably a poor use of points. Granted, if you're going to do it, the Infiltration Cadre is the right opportunity due to the high ratio of markerlights to offensive potential in the formation. Otherwise, a more permanent source of light vehicle/MC control is probably better. Broadsides, missile pod crisis suits, and Ghostkeels come to mind as superior options. They aren't near as fast, though.

I can't say I'm sold on Piranhas, but the idea of pooping out a bunch of drones (which you'd want to make BS5 with a commander or marksman) and having a ton of essentially 12-pt road blocks is quite appealing. I like the drone swarm concept with this new book a lot. I don't know that an extra fusion blaster is worth 10 points, but if you're taking advantage of the extra BS with regularity, perhaps it is. This is one of those things I'd have to see in action on the table.

Well I always liked Piranhas, and they were on the very edge of being competitive because they were cheap units that provided a lot of utility, however they were mostly redundant at the same time.

You're right in that you wouldn't use them to buff shooting on a squad that needs to die, as you're already shooting that squad in mass, but rather you're using them to buff single squads shooting at something that you want dead but could leave alive. Basically you'd be using it as a Markerlight platform in that sense to simply help out with killing a secondary target.

The problem with mass missile units like Broadsides, missile suits, and Keels is that they're AP4, where as the Seekers are AP3, they're also S7 instead of 8, both of which make a big difference when targeting the things you would with a Seeker. Then again I'm a huge fan of the Skyray and my real hope was that Piranhas would get a Networked Markerlight option so that I could use them as Mini-Rays, but alas it was not to be :(.

I'm not a fan of the Fusion Blaster on them, as really in my opinion their tactical utility units that should be cheap and disposable. Yes, Seekers do add to their points, but they're probably going to be used early and after that you can sacrifice the Piranha. I mean if you take two Piranhas with two seekers each, that's 112 points, 3 less than a Skyray, but you gain an extra Burst Cannon (which sadly can't be turned into an SMS) and two drones. Yes, the Skyray is much better still, but the difference between the two is becoming narrower, and it's pretty hard to include a Skyray in a Hunter Cad.

What support systems are good choices for the Stormsurge? I would say Early Warning Override is probably an auto-include, but Shield Generator could be handy as well (despite the hugely inflated cost).

Reason I ask is because a friend of mine suggested that perhaps instead of buying 3 Ghostkeel suits, I should buy just 1 (so I can run the OSC) and a Stormsurge (since it is really badass and better than Longstrike in the heavy section of the Hunter Contingent). Problem is, if I do go with the Stormsurge, I will likely need to come up with a good source of markerlights.

How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?

Alcibiades wrote:
How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?

That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?

That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:

Yes, but you get a lot fewer seeker hits. 1 per 3 hits, which at BS3 means 3 guys will get .5 seekers statistically, whereas if you gave them rail rifles they would get 3 hits in RF range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point here is that normally these units would get shot off the board before they could do much, but due to the formation's rules killing them creates its own problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose this is complicated by the fact that the seekers automatically get ignores cover?

Alcibiades wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?

That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:

Yes, but you get a lot fewer markerlight hits. 1 per 3 hits, which at BS3 means 3 guys will get .5 seekers statistically, whereas if you gave them rail rifles they would get 3 hits in RF range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point here is that normally these units would get shot off the board before they could do much, but due to the formation's rules killing them creates its own problems.

Oh, ok, I see what you're saying now. I think it's a clever idea, but I think it's the wrong place for it. The issue is that the Infiltration Cadre has a huge tax on it thanks to the two units of Stealth Suits, so it's not exactly the best place to slot in Pathfinder units with special weapons, which I do want to see in action at some point. More so, with the current Hunter Contingent it's very easy to take Pathfinders in the main force with special weapons, and then slot in Marker Drones into as many auxiliary slots as you want. Even if you don't run a Hunter Contingent you should have more than enough ways to gain Markerlights while taking special weapon Pathfinders in your normal force without paying the huge tax of the Infiltration Cadre for them.

My current list uses the Infiltration Cadre, but I also go heavier on the Pathfinders in hopes of getting extra Seeker hits: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/670420.page

Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.

 Tinkrr wrote:


Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.

This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.

I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:


Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.

This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.

I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.

But yea, that's what I'm saying, is that it's fine if you want some special weapons teams when it comes to Pathfinders, I just don't think it's what the Infiltration Cadre wants at all. You'll just be sinking a lot more into that specific formation for something you can get normally, while also gaining none of the benefits from the formation which isn't that great already D:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
What support systems are good choices for the Stormsurge? I would say Early Warning Override is probably an auto-include, but Shield Generator could be handy as well (despite the hugely inflated cost).

Reason I ask is because a friend of mine suggested that perhaps instead of buying 3 Ghostkeel suits, I should buy just 1 (so I can run the OSC) and a Stormsurge (since it is really badass and better than Longstrike in the heavy section of the Hunter Contingent). Problem is, if I do go with the Stormsurge, I will likely need to come up with a good source of markerlights.

A shield generator, and possibly an Early Warning Override. The shield generator is a must as it is only T6 with a 3+ armor, but a heavy (balanced) point cost. The reliable 4++,5+++ will help a lot keeping the Stormsurge alive. The EWO is because it can fire only the most effective weapon for interceptor and have the remaining weapons for your shooting phase. Also, if you choose to run a Heavy Retribution Cadre, the rule that grants twin-linked to the Stormsurges shooting at a target within 12" of a Ghostkeel applies to any shooting attack.

I liek ATS with a sturmsurge. So many shots will give you 6s to snipe special weapons

Pathfinders with special weapons aren't all that good to begin with, in my opinion. 2 guys with rail rifles is 52 points. I'd strongly prefer to have a crisis suit with 2 fusions or 2 plasmas for the same cost. The ion rifle is a rip-off. There are MUCH better sources of S7 AP 4 in our book. When you add in heavy weapon hits as a result of marker light hits, you get the best of both worlds, though. There's no reason to pay more than twice as many points for a flimsy unit just to get a touch more heavy fire out of it at the expense of marker synergy with other units.


For stormsurges, I agree that EWO is basically mandatory, even though by RAW, you're sacrificing 2 shots with whatever weapon you choose to intercept with to get 1 shot immediately. That can make a big difference if you pie plate some grav cents or a demon prince off the board, though. The shield generator is a sticky subject for me. It would obviously help a whole hell of a lot, but at 50 points...ugh. Chances are you'll survive a round of fire against grav Devastators or Centurions without it, but only barely. If you're in cover, you're good to go, so doing your best to make sure your opponent can't gate/pod in for an unobstructed shot is really important. You can save yourself 50 points through smart deployment, and that's probably what I'll opt for.

If you're running the OSC, I can't really see much reason why you wouldn't take 3 Ghostkeels. The formation bonuses are totally awesome, and Ghostkeels are one of the best units in the army, in my opinion. They're just good at everything, so taking more shouldn't be an issue at all. Once you have 3 of them, they get an additional BS from the Fire Team rule, so go for the gusto!

MilkmanAl wrote:
Pathfinders with special weapons aren't all that good to begin with, in my opinion. 2 guys with rail rifles is 52 points. I'd strongly prefer to have a crisis suit with 2 fusions or 2 plasmas for the same cost. The ion rifle is a rip-off. There are MUCH better sources of S7 AP 4 in our book.

I'm not going to argue the viability of Pathfinder special weapons, but surely the point is that they can use the weapons after scouting and/or outflanking with a recon drone, not the sheer existence of an S7 AP4 or S6 AP1 weapon profile.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:


Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.

This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.

I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.

Depending on your group's RAW/RAI stance on coordinated fire, Pulse Accelerator drones could really extend the target range, thuse rapid fire range of every pulse rifle on the same target as the pathfinders and suddenly be come a very very cheap force multiplier.

I'm not going to argue the viability of Pathfinder special weapons, but surely the point is that they can use the weapons after scouting and/or outflanking with a recon drone, not the sheer existence of an S7 AP4 or S6 AP1 weapon profile.

Fair point. You guys have me thinking really hard about the Infiltration Cadre. It seems pretty popular, on this board at least, so I feel like I'm missing something. I'm (perhaps obviously) trying to come up with ways to exploit the extensive reserves manipulation the formation offers. My philosophy with Tau has always been offense=defense, so keeping a sizable chunk of firepower off the table doesn't compute well. What's the advantage to a large beta strike over just intercepting the living &^%* out of everything that tries to drop on you? Perhaps it'd be nice to have against a mirror match or another army with brutal firepower that was all likely going to be on the table to start the game. I suppose it gives you a good degree of tactical flexibility with deployment, but is that really worth 400 pts of mediocre units? If you go with the Infiltration Cadre, aren't you more or less obligated to roll with Recon Drones in your pathfinder units so that the rest of your toys come in reliably? What's to stop your opponent from more or less just leaving you alone turn 1 in favor of controlling the board and then blowing away 400 pts of your army the following turn? I dunno, it all seems a bit gimmicky to me.

Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!

One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?

 Vector Strike wrote:
I liek ATS with a sturmsurge. So many shots will give you 6s to snipe special weapons

This. Along with the 4++ shield and EWO should be on every stormsurge. Just prepare to have people cry about it and tell you it can only fire 2 weapons a turn unless pyloned to the ground, even thought it has 8 weapons.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!

One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?

Well, the problem with Tau tactic discussions is what is there to talk about?

Other than rule-threading tactics that are debatable if theyre even suppose to be that way (coordinated fire + targetlocks for instance), our codex is pretty straight forward.

We have a number of things we can do but theyre all pretty similar in the end - usually massing high AP or high RoF weapons. Firewarrior + Ethereal tactics, or heavy Suit lists.
I can pretty much field anything thats not Vespid or the Fighter jet and find a use for them. Optimal, no, but useful.

Okay, here's a tactic I'm looking to try out:

Trying to not buy an insane amount like I did the last few armies I did, so building fairly take all comers, I have the following planned as a superheavy hunter unit:

Shadowsun, three melta crisis suits, a puretide chip on the Shas'Vre for monster/tank hunters, Shadowsun's reroll ones to hit drone and drop it all in using the Stealth Cadre's homing beacons.

Thoughts?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!

One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?

I watched a batrep that the player did that, Playing against elder, he charged a windrider unit and stomped on some. I think it would be interesting to try. And then use the shotgun so your dropping Dshots.

maybe you could go through each entry in the codex and talk about pros and cons and some common load outs and how they are used in the army.

Well the Ghostkeels are big time up for discussion in my opinion.

While the SotrmSurge clearly gives the Tau, once again, the title of "matabreaker" with its ability to stop Tournament guys from showing up and auto-winning with their Wraith Knight + Jet bikes, the Ghostkeel is the real X factor in my opinion.

It comes armed to put a serious hurt on armor, and if one chooses, it can be instead armed to take on a larger number of threat types with its optional Raker+Melta combination option.

Its use in the Mirror of Walls formation is undeniable. That Formation is never going to have a problem with armor, ever. Ironically it also has the firepower to take on normal troops too. So the Formation, when you consider the Stealthsuits and the Ghost Keels as one, can take on any threat type and it can stand in the wide open and take punishment, unlike most of its brethren.

This Formation seems as if it is an excellent use of the Stealth suits. And the enemy is forced to decide: do i fire at the big guys, who are screened by little guys, given its cover save? But then if they fire at the little guys with their cover save, all that Ghostkeel firepower is just running amok unchecked!

I have to say: Running this is going to be a lot of fun. Has anyone done it yet?

I plan to do a battle report as soon as i can get the models built and painted. My entire Tau Army is arctic themed, and my Stealthsuits are painted now. My Riptides will be done by Sunday in theory.

Looking forward to this in a pretty serious way!

One thing I'll say is that this codex is too effective at what it does. My local meta can't handle the stormsurge and the hunter contingent and I am forced to leave some of these items off the table to get a game. A little depressing, but that's why I have my Dark Eldar and White Scars.