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My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.

 BoomWolf wrote:
My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.

Yup exactly. If it was a space marine army or even elder, there are enough players for those that any rules would be passed.

Finally (Thank you ITC for bringing together the question!)

So no crazy USR sharing co-ord fire rule, just plain, simple ML efficiency and +1BS buff.

Now what is the mathhammer, across a couple of points;
-The benefit of the native +1BS bonus (assume it is always 3 units, simplicity) so each unit involved gets... effective guaranteed 2 x BS 3 markerlight shots for free, 6 shots per group?

- Sharing ML's (I assume just ML are 3x as potent?)

- Cost of minimum outlay

-Cost of optimal outlay (The fast/elite/heavy slots would assuming stay-as Drones/Riptide or/and Ghostkeel/Stormsurge).

- Comparison to similar point expenditure (So a Farsight army can field XV8's as troops - so (technically) 46pt troop tax, compared to the 145pt (which admittedly has the inherent benefit of being able to contribute to the co-ord fire rule).

Yes thanks ice for your knee jerk over reaction. I'm sure all the dearhstar players are hoisting a beer in your honor tonight.

In a way I"m happy with the ITC rule because it got really confusing really fast when playing (esp. adding things like dark strider or, more innocently, the pulse accelarator drone. Now It's basically shared marker light and +1 bs, decent but not OP.

The Mont'ka one gives you a free ''Doom'' psychic power a turn which is still great. (It doesn't give you re-roll on D attacks right?). Mont'ka seems to create quite ''fluffy'' army lists by design, arrive turn 2 from DS and remove one enemy unit, the killing blow indeed!.

On another not, In Mont'ka, the only way to get the storm surge is the Hunter Contingent correct?

 Fruzzle wrote:
On another not, In Mont'ka, the only way to get the storm surge is the Hunter Contingent correct?

You mean the Hunter Cadre?
In a Dawn Blade Detachment, the Hunter Cadre is the only way to add Stormsurges. However, a Heavy Retribution Cadre can be added to any FSE army, even using its rules - but not to a Dawn Blade Detachment. It will be a separate formation.

So the codex Empire formations can be used with the Mont'ka/Farsight lists? Still getting used to formations and decuron type things.

Codex/kayoun hunter contingent is either tau empire or FSE.
Montka dawn blade contingent is FSE only, and montka has a few extra formations that don't belong to either contingent.

You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...

Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?

It lacks clarity.

changemod wrote:
You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...

Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?

It lacks clarity.

Pick an enemy unit. All models under a dawn blade contingent get killing blow against that chosen unit.

If you took dawn blade and a CAD. The CAD models would not gain this bonus regardless of faction.

changemod wrote:
You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...

Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?

It lacks clarity.

By the wording, means the entire army.

Allies of Convenience

Units from the same army that are Allies of Convenience treat each other as ‘enemy units’ that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers. This means, for example, that units:
• Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.
• Cannot benefit from the Warlord Trait of an Allies of Convenience Warlord.
• Cannot be joined by Independent Characters that are Allies of Convenience.
• Are not counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities and so on.
• Cannot use special abilities to repair Hull Points, Immobilised or Weapon Destroyed results on Allies of Convenience vehicles.
• Cannot use modifiers and re-rolls that apply to Reserve Rolls that are granted by an Allies of Convenience model.
• Are affected by attacks, special rules or abilities used by Allies of Convenience that affect ‘enemy’ units within a certain range or area of effect.

Killing Blow isn't an ability (it's a special rule) and it doesn't target allies anyway.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/11/29/3rd-quarter-mid-season-itc-update-poll-results/#comments

ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.

Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.

 wyomingfox wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/11/29/3rd-quarter-mid-season-itc-update-poll-results/#comments

ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.

Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.

There was this post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/671249.page floating around General Discussion last week.

Didnt vote either because i didnt know about it. Then again like i said i think its overpowered. Yeah, its basically every turn something WILL die regardless of how durable it is, but thats the problem. There shouldnt be something so powerful it counters something else that clearly needs a damn nerf (looking at you invis) - it needs to be the other way around, nerf the op thing instead of making even more op things.

Had i of voted, i probably would have voted for Primary Targets and not Target Locks. Despite what i just said, i know GW would never balance that way so i'd rather have the option to b-slap dickheads that use inviso stars and the like, and not use it at all against people that dont. Not for Target Locks though, since that would insanely confuse things if you allowed it at all.

Also, nothing says you cant take the formations listed in either the main codex or Mont'ka with each other. The only restriction is utilizing them in the Hunter Contingent or Dawn Blade - i.e. i can take the Drone Net in a Hunter Contingent list, but it wont benefit from any rules Hunter Contingent gives me nor would it count as one of my Aux choices.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/11/29/3rd-quarter-mid-season-itc-update-poll-results/#comments

ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.

Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.

There was this post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/671249.page floating around General Discussion last week.

Ah...I was regularly checking the Tournament Discussions forum, which is where I have seen a few other ITC notifications in the past. Why post the notifier in 40K General Discussions? Sigh.

 wyomingfox wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/11/29/3rd-quarter-mid-season-itc-update-poll-results/#comments

ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.

Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.

There was this post http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/671249.page floating around General Discussion last week.

Ah...I was regularly checking the Tournament Discussions forum, which is where I have seen a few other ITC notifications in the past. Why post the notifier in 40K General Discussions? Sigh.

Because the link was posted by another subscriber and not someone from Frontline.

After reading through the ITC doc and including the the voted on updates, Tau are fine. While they can't share special rules via Coordinated Fire, the Stormsurge can fire all weapons every turn and is immune to Tank Shock. All in all, it a minor change to tactics that will probably speed up play due to less arguing. Also, if you don't like the ruling, you can chose not to support ITC events.

SJ

So speaking of the Mont'ka, anyone else check out the VX!-0 drone net? For just over 200pts you get 16 (4x4) Jinking, intercepting, outflanking, Precise shooting, Splitfiring, JSJ, BS3 Markerlights.

In fact it gives ALL drones in your army +1 BS. non-formation drones are specifically given this permission. Taking a VX1-0 along with a Hunter Contingent and you have got have got some really sweet ML bonus shenanigans.

Anyone? more like everyone.
The drone net is one of is not THE most talked about auxiliary in the dawn blade contingent. being only topped by the absurdity that is the firestorm (who is bound to get nerfed by ITC too)

The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.

The sheer power of it, even with mere gun drone spam, cannot be denied. they become far superior fire warriors. (at least compared to carbine warriors.)

(its slightly over 250 for a minimal setup though. and you defiantly want more than minimal setting-because drone network gun drones are amazing.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.

Sort of like how Thunderdome was able to keep all IoM special rules.

Mont'ka's looking pretty good for you guys. Makes me want to collect Tau even though my friend collects them (I have an old Riptide I was going to use for the old Firebase Support Cadre but never got round to finishing it. Might get a few more for Riptide Wing).

The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.

Nope. Bonuses from the same rule do not stack without specific permission. Bonuses from different rules do stack. Multiple Drone Nets still provide the same rule, not different versions of the same rule.

SJ

Agreed.

Its listed as a Special Rule to get the army wide +1BS - Special Rules of the same exact rule do not stack. Only way you can stack effects is if they are NOT the same rule, but have the same effect (Fire Team + Coordinated Firepower for example giving +2BS together).

Drone Net +1BS is the same rule for both formations. Not saying its a bad idea to take 2 minimal formations rather than 4x8 man units, since then you can divvy up your MLs better and suffer less from high RoF AP4 guns/jink forces. In fact, i dont see any reason to bring more than 4x4 unless you simply cant field it twice and just wanna field as much as you can (4x6 for instance)
You'd have to mark the units to which formation to keep the rule going, since theyre "different formations" but now you have a backup in case one formation gets whooped you still have +1BS.

If it was listed strictly as "This formation adds +1BS to all drones in your army" with no special rule bold print or restrictions, then it would stack. But it doesnt list it that way.

Here's the fun part where it brakes down.

Imagine the scenario you have 2 drone formations.

As you have 2 formations, each formation has their own copy of the rule.

Therefor, formation A has a rule saying "all drones, regardless of origin, gets +1 BS" and now both formation A and formation B drones are BS3
Formation B however, also have a rule saying "all drones, regardless of origin, gets +1 BS" kicking on to team B and team A, making their 3 a 4.

As the formation does not actually grant every drone on the field a rule that ups the BS value (like "stealth" does for cover for example), but a blanket case of "If Z allies, than for every X do Y, else do nothing" sort of effect to simply increase drone BS as long the condition is met that don't have to even be held by the unit affected by it, there is nothing in the rulebook that restrict two or more instances of that blanket modification from overlapping

Now, while every sane man that is not a cheater will tell you its obviously not how its supposed to work, by adhering to only the written word, you can't find anything that will prevent this from happening.
The reason there is no such rule that blocks the sae rule from applying multiple times, is that its not really needed by other rules, there is no other case I know of of a rule that even matters if it has multiple instances. even stealth and shrouded are worded in such a way that they themselves prevent double dipping by saying "a unit containing one or more..." in them-making them not matter how many times its there. fusion charge similarily blocks itself by noting "a unit with this special rule..." as its an on/off switch, you have it or not. you don't care how many times.
But the drone rule, has no such inner block by its wording. probably because they thought it was obvious and didn't consider how munchkin some 40k players are.

Attempting it in a real game may or may not cause your drones to be used as golf balls though.




On general PROPER use for this, once you ignore the "stacking" nonsense, the formation contains AT LEAST 4 drone teams, you can field more. never a need to use the formation twice once you accept that stacking the BS boost is slowed and will lead to social banishment.

So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?

Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?

I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.

there is nothing in the rulebook that restrict two or more instances of that blanket modification from overlapping

Except that there is:

“Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/AjAB0.l

SJ

Requizen wrote:
So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?

Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?

I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.

Riptide Wing would probably offer the best bang for your buck with its immense alpha strike capability. You could give one of them the Velocity Tracker to put some hurt on FMC too.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Requizen wrote:
So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?

Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?

I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.

Riptide Wing would probably offer the best bang for your buck with its immense alpha strike capability. You could give one of them the Velocity Tracker to put some hurt on FMC too.

Any tips on how to kit them out? I know very little to nothing about Tau other than the cursory stuff (how Markerlights work, Riptides are good, etc).

There are two ways you can use them:

Load them with Ion Accelerators, Early Warning Override, with Stims being option (35pts each so ... can add up lol)
IA riptides are far safer of an option than Heavy Burst Cannon riptides because they dont need the Nova Charge to do any serious damage. They do have Gets Hot to worry about, but thats not as big of a deal. They are great for taking out termie blobs or other such 2+ units, especially ones that deepstrike in with EWO(interceptor).

This is the safer option, but leaves them kinda static in their target priority. IA riptides are lousy against vehicles, since its still a single shot, and as a result are also terrible AA platforms. The lack of Nova Charge risk makes them the favorite between them and HBC riptides.

HBC Riptides are high risk high reward type mentality. They MUST pass the nova charge to be a real threat, and considering these 3 riptides can reroll failed novas if theyre within 6" of another one that chance just skyrocketed. Without nova, theyre 8 S6 AP4 shots...not that amazing. With Nova Charge, theyre 12 S6 AP4 Rending Gets Hot. 12 S6 Rending shots can attack literally anything, i used to have one with a Buffmander attached when that was still legal and he would reliably kill Landraiders in one volley.

HBCs are in my opinion vastly more powerful than IAs, but have a much higher risk to do absolutely nothing. The Riptide Wing formation virtually removes the Nova problem, since a rerollable 3+ is pretty hard to fail. I wouldnt bother with EWO on an HBC riptide personally, but i would definitely grab Advanced Targeting Systems to precision shot things with those 12 shots + your second weapon.

tldr: Heavy Bursts are amazing, but require a passed Nova Test to be any good. Ion Accelerators are more reliable and safe since they dont even need a Nova Test at all, but less powerful.

Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.

In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?

Requizen wrote:
Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.

In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?

Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.