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So this has been coming up recently on many forums and groups I watch. Most effective way to handle a Wriathknight or Stormsurge? Well had some time so I did some numbers. Tau surprisingly have a hard time dealing with GMC despite our heavy firepower. Of course I am considering 0 D-missiles (not everyone uses a stormsurge themselves).

*Note: No invisibility, BS5 cause markerlights, no ethereal, no fireblade, no darkstrider; you need 9 damage because 5+ FNP

Wraithknight w/o shield:

s8 ap1: 22 shots -> 18 hits -> 9 damage... 22 Fusion Blasters, 22 HRR

s7 ap4: 98 shots -> 81 hits -> 27 wounds -> 9 damage... 33 CIBs, 49 Missile Pods, 25 HYMP (but this doesn't include TL)

s6 ap2: 65 shots -> 54 hits -> 9 damage... 33 plasma guns

s5 ap5: 195 shots -> 162 hits -> 27 wounds -> 9 damage... 49 burst cannons, 49 smart missiles, 195/98 pulse rifles/carbines

Wraithknight w/ shield:

s8 ap1: 33 shots -> 27 hits -> 14 wounds -> 9 damage... 33 Fusion Blasters, 33 HRR

s7 ap4: 98 shots -> 81 hits -> 27 wounds -> 9 damage... 33 CIBs, 49 Missile Pods, 25 HYMP (but this doesn't include TL)

s6 ap2: 98 shots -> 81 hits -> 27 wounds -> 9 damage... 49 plasma guns

s5 ap5: 195 shots -> 162 hits -> 27 wounds -> 9 damage... 49 burst cannons, 49 smart missles, 195/98 pulse rifles/carbines

I thought this was pretty interesting. Comparing shield and w/o CIBs offer decent approaches to both because of the s7 wounding on 5s. It is just crazy at the amount of firepower you need to take one of these down.. and its under 400 points.. ugh

Additionally you would need 11 crisis suits with fusion to commit, or 9 with plasma (assuming rapid range which I computed for). Taking one down in 1 go is not worth trying, the amount of damage you can do to other units in the army is far more effective.

Stormsurge w/ shield: ***I only did shield because why would be not have one. 8 WOUNDS! 12 damage cause FNP

s8 ap1: 35 shots -> 29 hits -> 24 wounds -> 12 damage... 35 Fusion Blasters, 35 HRR

s7 ap4: 65 shots -> 54 hits -> 36 wounds -> 12 damage... 22 CIBs, 33 Missle Pods, 17 HYMP (but this doesn't include TL)

s6 ap2: 58 shots -> 48 hits -> 24 wounds -> 12 damage... 29 plasma guns

s5 ap5: 130 shots -> 108 hits -> 36 wounds -> 12 damage... 33 burst cannons, 33 smart missles, 130/65 pulse rifles/carbines

Thank you to those who caught errors: Jancoran, Peregrim
This was extremely interesting to me.

Notice the RoF vs Ap debate in action here. The burst cannons and plasmas take about the same number of suits/weapons to do the same task, one throws more dice, the other has low ap. The WK 5s and 6s wound the same on T8. On the surge the better invul makes up for the easier wounding. Very interesting.

I initially suspected the Surge was more vulnerable then the WK but as this shows it takes more low AP and less RoF to kill the Surge when compared to the WK. And as you can see, Tau struggles in this area greatly.. it will take multiple turns committing units to this task.. and shows the issue with GMC in general.

Shadowsun CAN join them. The rule says if they are to join them they MUST do so before deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormsurge has 8 wounds.

 Jancoran wrote:
Shadowsun CAN join them. The rule says if they are to join them they MUST do so before deployment.

huh?

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurge has 8 wounds.

Thanks, I will edit!

You forgot that both the Stormsurge and Wraithknight have Feel No Pain.

 Verviedi wrote:
You forgot that both the Stormsurge and Wraithknight have Feel No Pain.

I did not. =) hence why you must deal 9 and 12 damage respectively. 9 damage after FNP results in 6 final wounds. 12 to 8.

Cheers!

Everyone forgets about Sniper weapons against GCs

Wraithknight w/o shield:
sX ap2 65 shots -> 54 hits -> 9 damage... 65 Kroot, 33 Sniper Drones

Wraithknight w/ shield:
sX ap2 98 shots -> 81 hits -> 13 wounds -> 9 damage... 98 Kroot, 49 Sniper Drones

Stormsurge w/o shield:
sX ap2 87 shots -> 72 hits -> 12 damage... 87 Kroot, 44 Sniper Drones

Stormsurge w/ shield:
sX ap2 173 shots -> 144 hits -> 24 wounds -> 12 damage... 173 Kroot, 87 Sniper Drones

Of the weapons you listed above, Snipers are actually some of the most cost-efficient anti-wraithknight weapons the Tau have (both with and without shield). Better yet: Sniper Drone Teams natively have BS5, and they can land the necessary markerlights to boost the BS of any other unit. However, they are one of the least efficient anti-stormsurge weapon platforms, where the high S of the Tau's basic guns is sufficient.

(also, you made an error with plasma s6 ap2 in your calculations with the storm surge - using bs 4 instead of bs5)

Peregrim wrote:
Everyone forgets about Sniper weapons against GCs

Of the weapons you listed above, Snipers are actually some of the most cost-efficient anti-wraithknight weapons the Tau have (both with and without shield). Better yet: Sniper Drone Teams natively have BS5, and they can land the necessary markerlights to boost the BS of any other unit. However, they are one of the least efficient anti-stormsurge weapon platforms, where the high S of the Tau's basic guns is sufficient.

(also, you made an error with plasma s6 ap2 in your calculations with the storm surge - using bs 4 instead of bs5)

HA good catch I will update that... also, I think people forget about sniper weapons because they are 6s to wound... and because of that also forget they become AP2 !!! Good catch and thanks for doing the maths for me =) I still don't run 50 kroot though lol But definitely cheapest option maybe?

Kroot are the cheapest option if you disregard the cost of markerlight support for BS5, however I would actually give Sniper Drone Teams the edge in cost efficiency against wraithknights because they don't need initial markerlight support for accuracy themselves, plus firesight marksmen are the most cost-efficient markerlight sources (with the caveat that they must be taken in a sniper team) and they provide the necessary 2 markers to boost the accuracy of any follow-up unit.

Firesight Marksmen are very good. I have used three with three drones for quite a while as my second markerlight source. So good.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2015/08/tau-empire-sniper-drone-and-marker.html

 Jancoran wrote:
Firesight Marksmen are very good. I have used three with three drones for quite a while as my second markerlight source. So good.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2015/08/tau-empire-sniper-drone-and-marker.html

I think you're definitely right, and before the Skynet formation, I was definitely going to go that route for my ML. But now, the rise of the machines is too good to pass up. That being said, it's not a bad choice to use those guys as your ML - it's like the elder predicament - man which of these great options to choose?? My life is SO HARD! (I play Eldar so I don't feel bad making that generalization)

Are the relics for the Tau Mont'Ka Formation the same or different?

 CKO wrote:
Are the relics for the Tau Mont'Ka Formation the same or different?

same. Just note that the FSE army rules don't explicitly allow Riptides to take relics like they did in the supplement.. So search for a debate thread on the ECPA.

How are snipers good? Theyre GMCs, they wound on a 6. Yeah it will pen armor on a 6 as well but considering the amount of 6s you'd need to roll thats so not worth it. Kroot will evaporate in seconds and sniper drones are expensive at those numbers you'd need. Average dice, 60 sniper hits would only give you 10 wounds that pen armor. Wayyyy too many sniper drones to price and the kroot would go away the moment the opponent realized they were holding sniper rounds (plus good FB fodder)

That mathhammer definitely shows the power of T8 vs T6. Even with a better invul, it takes less shots (except with the melta/hrr weapons that pen armor and still wound reliably) to kill 2 more wounds.

Kinda starting to want some Y'vahra/R'varna or a Ta'unar even more now. The Stormsurge D missiles "can" take out a GMC but we need like 5 ML to reliably use it, and since its 1 use only we REALLY want to make it count (1 to make it Str D, 2 for BS5, 2 for ignores cover in case we didnt roll a 6. Remember its not a seeker missile).
I recently played a 7500pt game 2v2. Stormsurge didnt even get to use his D missiles as D because by the time targets were in sight/on the board to justify the D missile, my marker support was stripped clean. It was the only GMC on the board, but there were several targets in the air or Landraiders i'd love to ping with it.

Side comment:
So rereading the markerlights, i noticed the last thing it says is "Does not reduce the number of weapons the vehicle can fire at full BS" - considering all the rules mention Vehicle, which technically would disallow Broadsides from firing seekers via markerlights if you played it that way, would that mean we can actually fire both the HYMP, SMS, and the Seeker in one volley? Ive noticed every time i buy one on them because i got points lying around, it never gets used due to gun number problems.

Oh, thats another anti-GMC tactic if they dont have a 2+ (do any of them besides the Ta'unar have a 2+?). Seeker spam. I regularly run 5man piranha screens, theyre usually permajinking, but for 80pts thats 10 seekers you can make ignore cover and be BS4/5 for 3/4 marks, assuming they didnt jink (even if they did its less marks than firing all the seekers via Seeker rules). Wounds the knight on 4s, pens armor, ignores cover. Not saying its the best, but it works. Before it had FNP i did that once and overkilled the hell out of it lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
How are snipers good? Theyre GMCs, they wound on a 6. Yeah it will pen armor on a 6 as well but considering the amount of 6s you'd need to roll thats so not worth it. Kroot will evaporate in seconds and sniper drones are expensive at those numbers you'd need. Average dice, 60 sniper hits would only give you 10 wounds that pen armor. Wayyyy too many sniper drones to price and the kroot would go away the moment the opponent realized they were holding sniper rounds (plus good FB fodder)

What Sniper Drones lack in power, they make up for in cost-efficiency.

In one shooting phase, every 54 points invested in Sniper Drones will deal the same number of wounds to a wraithknight without a shield as 104 points invested in 2x Fusion Crisis suits without markerlight support or 63 points invested in 2x Fusion Crisis suits with markerlight support. Sniper Drones are actually the most cost-efficient models at dealing wounds to the waithknight without markerlight support (with markerlight support they are second only to Kroot w/ Sniper rounds and Breachers at 5"). But a full 9 Sniper Drones will only land 2.5 of the expected 9 wounds to kill a wraithknight (or 3.75 if buffed by an Ethereal).

It's clear that Fusion Crisis suits are very cost-inefficient against the wraithknight without markerlight support whereas Sniper Drones are very cost-efficient without support but lack the raw power to deal with a wraithknight alone. Fortunately the Sniper Drone Team can also provide the markerlight support needed by the crisis team. Firesight Marksmen are the most cost-efficient models at landing markerlights in the Tau codex (due to BS5 at a marginally higher cost than a pathfinder). Two marksmen will land the required 2 markers 70% of the time, while 3 marksmen will land at least 2 markers 97% of the time (both options are cheaper than the minimum 4 pathfinders for expected 2 markerlight hits).

The cost efficiency of the drones at dealing wounds and the marksmen at landing markers is why the Sniper Drone Team is good at dealing with wraithknights. Of course, Sniper weapons are fairly niche (whereas fusion blasters are much more versatile). Fortunately, the added marker support keeps the combined cost-efficiency of the Sniper Drone Team and a follow-up unit competitive with other options against a variety of targets so long as they have a Toughness value rather than an AV (for example, a Sniper Drone Team followed by a unit of Fire Warriors with pulse rifles is more cost-efficient at dealing wounds to Marines than either unit alone).

 Vineheart01 wrote:

That mathhammer definitely shows the power of T8 vs T6. Even with a better invul, it takes less shots (except with the melta/hrr weapons that pen armor and still wound reliably) to kill 2 more wounds.

Yeah - there are more options to deal with our T6 Stormsurge (and for cheaper) than to deal with the Wraithknight. Still, with an invulnerable save, a ton of wounds, and FNP - the resilience of the Stormsurge is definitely an asset.

I've been using the Y'Vahra at my local store for a couple of weeks now and it wrecks. That jump ability coupled with str 8 ap 3 shots and str 6 ap 2 flamer is amazing.

Peregrim wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
How are snipers good? Theyre GMCs, they wound on a 6. Yeah it will pen armor on a 6 as well but considering the amount of 6s you'd need to roll thats so not worth it. Kroot will evaporate in seconds and sniper drones are expensive at those numbers you'd need. Average dice, 60 sniper hits would only give you 10 wounds that pen armor. Wayyyy too many sniper drones to price and the kroot would go away the moment the opponent realized they were holding sniper rounds (plus good FB fodder)

What Sniper Drones lack in power, they make up for in cost-efficiency.

In one shooting phase, every 54 points invested in Sniper Drones will deal the same number of wounds to a wraithknight without a shield as 104 points invested in 2x Fusion Crisis suits without markerlight support or 66 points invested in 2x Fusion Crisis suits with markerlight support. Sniper Drones are actually the most cost-efficient models at dealing wounds to the waithknight without markerlight support (with markerlight support they are second only to Kroot w/ Sniper rounds). But a full 9 Sniper Drones will only land 2.5 of the expected 9 wounds to kill a wraithknight (or 3.75 if buffed by an Ethereal).

It's clear that Fusion Crisis suits are very cost-inefficient against the wraithknight without markerlight support whereas Sniper Drones are very cost-efficient without support but lack the raw power to deal with a wraithknight alone. Fortunately the Sniper Drone Team can also provide the markerlight support needed by the crisis team. Firesight Marksmen are the most cost-efficient models at landing markerlights in the Tau codex (due to BS5 at a marginally higher cost than a pathfinder). Two marksmen will land the required 2 markers 70% of the time, while 3 marksmen will land at least 2 markers 97% of the time (both options are cheaper than the minimum 4 pathfinders for expected 2 markerlight hits).

The cost efficiency of the drones at dealing wounds and the marksmen at landing markers is why the Sniper Drone Team is good at dealing with wraithknights. Of course, Sniper weapons are fairly niche (whereas fusion blasters are much more versatile). Fortunately, the added marker support keeps the combined cost-efficiency of the Sniper Drone Team and a follow-up unit competitive with other options against a variety of targets so long as they have a Toughness value rather than an AV (for example, a Sniper Drone Team followed by a unit of Fire Warriors with pulse rifles is more cost-efficient at dealing wounds to Marines than either unit alone).

 Vineheart01 wrote:

That mathhammer definitely shows the power of T8 vs T6. Even with a better invul, it takes less shots (except with the melta/hrr weapons that pen armor and still wound reliably) to kill 2 more wounds.

Yeah - there are more options to deal with our T6 Stormsurge (and for cheaper) than to deal with the Wraithknight. Still, with an invulnerable save, a ton of wounds, and FNP - the resilience of the Stormsurge is definitely an asset.

I highly question all of your calculations lol

Then your questioning is a failure.

The fact it wounds only on 6 is irrelevant when you consider how cheap the shots are compared to high strength shots, and the fact the are effectively AP2 in the scenario.


Snipers as a whole a rather efficient answer to MC and GMC, and we got some of the cheapest sniper shots around.

notredameguy10 wrote:
I highly question all of your calculations lol

Sniper Drone: 2 shots -> 1.67 hits -> 0.28 wounds -> 54 points/wound
Fusion Suit (BS3): 2 shots -> 1.0 hits -> 0.5 wounds ->104 points/wound
Fusion Suit (BS5): 2 shots -> 1.67 hits -> 0.83 wounds -> 62.4 points/wound

So you were right to question my calculations - due to a typo I was off by 3.6 points on one of them.

Markerlight efficiency, it's very simple to confirm that Firesight marksmen are more cost-efficient than pathfinders (and BS5 marker drones even without considering the cost of the commander).

Sniper Drone Team: 18 shots -> 15 hits -> 2.5 wounds
w/ Ethereal & Storm of Fire: 27 shots -> 22.5 hits -> 3.75 wounds
3x Dual Fusion Suits (BS5): 6 shots -> 5 hits -> 2.5 wounds

Using these numbers, you can determine that the combined cost efficiency of the Sniper Drone Team and the 3x dual fusion Crisis Team is 63-66 points per wound whereas the cost efficiency of the 3x dual fusion Crisis Team relying on pathfinders as an outside markerlight source is 80 points per wound while dealing half the wounds. (simply add the cost of the constituent units and divide by the total wounds dealt)

So like I said, the Sniper Drones are very cost-efficient at dealing wounds to the wraithknight and they significantly boost the cost-efficiency of your other heavy-hitters as well.

Hi,
a question: may I include Shadowsun in a optimized stealth cadre and benefit from both the formation special rules and the stealth suits as bodyguard?

Farseer M wrote:
Hi,
a question: may I include Shadowsun in a optimized stealth cadre and benefit from both the formation special rules and the stealth suits as bodyguard?

Shadowsun may join the stealth suits, but does not gain the special rules. Few reasons.
1) This formation as well as most formations, specifically state "models in this formation", in regards to the OSC, it specifically states that the ghostkeel and stealth suits within 6" of the ghostkeel.
2) Under IC rules I am pretty sure it states that ICs do not gain special rules of a squad when they join. Unless of course they are "unit buff" special rules, for example, tank hunter.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

But the stealth suits get 3d jetpack right?

arthorn wrote:
But the stealth suits get 3d jetpack right?

Yes the unit would benefit from any buffs brought from shadowsun, including the 3d6 jump move (pending her being your warlord)

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Farseer M wrote:
Hi,
a question: may I include Shadowsun in a optimized stealth cadre and benefit from both the formation special rules and the stealth suits as bodyguard?

Shadowsun may join the stealth suits, but does not gain the special rules. Few reasons.
1) This formation as well as most formations, specifically state "models in this formation", in regards to the OSC, it specifically states that the ghostkeel and stealth suits within 6" of the ghostkeel.
2) Under IC rules I am pretty sure it states that ICs do not gain special rules of a squad when they join. Unless of course they are "unit buff" special rules, for example, tank hunter.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

Not sure, so I gave a look , in the codex it says "units" not "models", so any stealth suit unit and an IC that joins a unit count as part of that unit for all rules purposes; also regarding special rules, special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC in with them. Formation special rules are not utnit special rules, but are conferred to the unit when near the Ghostkeel so I think this is the case.

Farseer M wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Farseer M wrote:
Hi,
a question: may I include Shadowsun in a optimized stealth cadre and benefit from both the formation special rules and the stealth suits as bodyguard?

Shadowsun may join the stealth suits, but does not gain the special rules. Few reasons.
1) This formation as well as most formations, specifically state "models in this formation", in regards to the OSC, it specifically states that the ghostkeel and stealth suits within 6" of the ghostkeel.
2) Under IC rules I am pretty sure it states that ICs do not gain special rules of a squad when they join. Unless of course they are "unit buff" special rules, for example, tank hunter.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

Not sure, so I gave a look , in the codex it says "units" not "models", so any stealth suit unit and an IC that joins a unit count as part of that unit for all rules purposes; also regarding special rules, special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC in with them. Formation special rules are not utnit special rules, but are conferred to the unit when near the Ghostkeel so I think this is the case.

Yep exactly. So when shadowsun w/ drones joins the unit. The stealth suits gain reroll 1s, and shadowsun gains shrouded (if she doesn't have it already).

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Farseer M wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Farseer M wrote:
Hi,
a question: may I include Shadowsun in a optimized stealth cadre and benefit from both the formation special rules and the stealth suits as bodyguard?

Shadowsun may join the stealth suits, but does not gain the special rules. Few reasons.
1) This formation as well as most formations, specifically state "models in this formation", in regards to the OSC, it specifically states that the ghostkeel and stealth suits within 6" of the ghostkeel.
2) Under IC rules I am pretty sure it states that ICs do not gain special rules of a squad when they join. Unless of course they are "unit buff" special rules, for example, tank hunter.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

Not sure, so I gave a look , in the codex it says "units" not "models", so any stealth suit unit and an IC that joins a unit count as part of that unit for all rules purposes; also regarding special rules, special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC in with them. Formation special rules are not utnit special rules, but are conferred to the unit when near the Ghostkeel so I think this is the case.

Yep exactly. So when shadowsun w/ drones joins the unit. The stealth suits gain reroll 1s, and shadowsun gains shrouded (if she doesn't have it already).

They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

I agree with you.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????

Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"

?

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.

And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)

Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.

SJ

I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????

Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"

?

Shadows is in a stealth suit.