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2015/10/29 01:13:59
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
China rebuked Washington for sending a U.S. guided-missile destroyer close to one of Beijing's man-made islands in the disputed South China Sea, saying it had tracked and warned the ship and called in the U.S. ambassador to protest.
The USS Lassen's patrol on Tuesday was the most significant U.S. challenge yet to the 12-nautical-mile territorial limits China claims around artificial islands it has built in the Spratly archipelago.
Washington's move followed months of deliberation by President Barack Obama's administration and could ratchet up tension in one of the world's busiest shipping lanes and increase strains in U.S.-China relations.
China claims most of the South China Sea, through which more than $5 trillion of world trade passes every year. Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines and Taiwan have rival claims.
A U.S. defense official said the Lassen also went within 12-mile limits of features in the disputed sea claimed by Vietnam and the Philippines, a U.S. treaty ally. Such "freedom-of-navigation" patrols were expected to become more frequent, the official said.
The U.S. destroyer sailed within 12 nautical miles of Subi Reef, one of seven artificial islands built up by China in the past year.
Spoiler:
A Chinese guided-missile destroyer and a naval patrol ship shadowed and gave warnings to the U.S. warship "according to law", China's Defense Ministry said.
The U.S. patrol was a "coercive action that seeks to militarize the South China Sea region" and an "abuse" of freedom of navigation under international law, it said.
China's navy said the "air arm" was also involved, but gave no details.
The official People's Liberation Army Daily said in a front page commentary on Wednesday the United States needed to learn the lessons of the chaos in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, which it said proved how a U.S. show of force never brought stability.
"Cast iron facts show that time and again the United States recklessly uses force and starts wars, stirring things up where once there was stability, causing the bitterest of harm to those countries directly involved," it said.
The U.S. defense official said the USS Lassen was followed at a safe distance by a Chinese ship and no incidents were reported during the 72-mile (115 km) passage.
"I would expect that this becomes a regular operation in the South China Sea," the official said. "This type of operation shouldn't be seen as provocative."
The official said the USS Lassen had been followed for weeks by Chinese vessels before the patrol.
Two other U.S. officials said there was bridge-to-bridge radio communication with the Chinese as the Lassen approached Subi Reef. One of the officials said the Chinese did not shadow the U.S. warship as closely when it came within 12 miles of islands claimed by the Philippines and Vietnam.
ENVOY SUMMONED
U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter, testifying to the Senate Armed Services Committee on Tuesday, initially said only that the U.S. Navy had conducted operations in the South China Sea. However, he said under questioning from lawmakers the USS Lassen had passed within 12 miles of a Chinese artificial island.
China's Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Yesui summoned U.S. Ambassador Max Baucus, telling him that the patrol was "extremely irresponsible", the Foreign Ministry said. It said earlier the USS Lassen "illegally" entered waters near islands and reefs in the Spratlys.
Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang told a daily briefing on Tuesday that, if the United States continued to "create tensions in the region", China might conclude it had to "increase and strengthen the building up of our relevant abilities".
Lu did not elaborate, except to say he hoped it did not come to that. His comments suggested China could further boost its military presence in the South China Sea.
In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman John Kirby told a regular briefing: "Setting this aside, the U.S.-China relationship is vitally important and one we want to see continue to improve and to grow for the benefit of both our countries, not to mention the region."
OBAMA TO VISIT ASIA NEXT MONTH
Subi was submerged at high tide before China began a dredging project to turn it into an island in 2014.
Under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, 12-nautical mile limits cannot be set around man-made islands built on previously submerged reefs.
Pentagon officials say the United States regularly conducts freedom-of-navigation operations around the world to challenge excessive maritime claims. The U.S. Navy last went within 12 miles of Chinese-claimed territory in the Spratlys in 2012.
China traveled within 12 nautical miles of the U.S. controlled Aleutian Island about six weeks ago, the defense official said.
The USS Lassen patrol was carried out just weeks before a series of Asia-Pacific summits that Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping were expected to attend.
Security experts have said Washington's freedom-of-navigation patrols would have to be regular to be effective, given Chinese ambitions to project power deep into maritime Southeast Asia and beyond.
Some have said China would likely resist attempts to make such U.S. actions routine. China's navy could, for example, try to block or attempt to surround U.S. vessels, risking an escalation.
Washington worries that China has built up its outposts with the aim of extending its military reach in the South China Sea. China says they will have mainly civilian uses and undefined defense purposes.
Xi surprised U.S. officials after a meeting with Obama in Washington last month by saying that China had "no intention to militarize" the islands.
(Reporting by Andrea Shalal, Yeganeh Torbati, David Brunnstrom and Phil Stewart in Washington and Ben Blanchard and Michael Martina in Beijing; Additional reporting by Tim Kelly in Tokyo, Grego Torode in Hong Kong and Lincoln Feast in Sydney; Writing by Dean Yates and Alex Richardson; Editing by Robert Birsel, Ian Geoghegan and Grant McCool)
Out of interest, how does 2 navies communicate like this? Did China have an on board translator or did they phone up their superiors and get a translator hooked up to communicate or do they have a universal naval language? Without quick access to translators it seems conflicts could escalate when 2 navies cannot communicate etc.
Regardless it seems everyone is super casual about this so I don't expect much from this. China will have control of these islands if they want it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 01:26:06
2015/10/29 01:24:00
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
I think its a mile off shore is the limit. I think. key word "think"
Reference I am using is Somalia pirates
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2015/10/29 01:44:59
Subject: Re:Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
This falls into the "posturing" stage for both parties.
There are going to be problems once China actually stations aircraft on the new islands they built and starts flying patrols over the area. Their approach to seabasing, "We build the islands, we own the islands, thusly we have the natural right to extend our maritime borders", is fascinatingly capitalistic in its nature. Kind of interesting coming from a post-communist state with pretty centralized power structures.
The problem is you can build an island 12 miles off-shore of your 'natural' territory, then claim it with its 12 mile national territory, then build another island 12 miles off the first one, repeat, repeat.
Obviously at some point there are going to be practical limitations to building artifical islands, but even so...
At the same time, half of Holland is land reclaimed from below the sea, and no-one is worried about Dutch encroachment into the North Sea.
Kilkrazy wrote: At the same time, half of Holland is land reclaimed from below the sea, and no-one is worried about Dutch encroachment into the North Sea.
Just makes them a bit closer for the next time Europe goes to war; gives us some more choices for landing troops. As much fun as it is fighting in France, sometimes it is good to mix it up
Plus it is all going to get flooded in a few years anyway as sea levels rise
The problem is you can build an island 12 miles off-shore of your 'natural' territory, then claim it with its 12 mile national territory, then build another island 12 miles off the first one, repeat, repeat.
Obviously at some point there are going to be practical limitations to building artifical islands, but even so...
At the same time, half of Holland is land reclaimed from below the sea, and no-one is worried about Dutch encroachment into the North Sea.
TBH the Netherlands aren't building islands (or polders, in this case) in a contested area.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/10/29 10:56:24
Subject: Re:Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
There are going to be problems once China actually stations aircraft on the new islands they built and starts flying patrols over the area. Their approach to seabasing, "We build the islands, we own the islands, thusly we have the natural right to extend our maritime borders", is fascinatingly capitalistic in its nature. Kind of interesting coming from a post-communist state with pretty centralized power structures.
China has historically been very aggressive when it has power. All its neighbors know this.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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2015/10/29 13:00:34
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
That, and we're probably just jealous we didn't think of it first.
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One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
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2015/10/29 13:39:48
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
The problem is you can build an island 12 miles off-shore of your 'natural' territory, then claim it with its 12 mile national territory, then build another island 12 miles off the first one, repeat, repeat.
Obviously at some point there are going to be practical limitations to building artifical islands, but even so...
At the same time, half of Holland is land reclaimed from below the sea, and no-one is worried about Dutch encroachment into the North Sea.
TBH the Netherlands aren't building islands (or polders, in this case) in a contested area.
Yes. That is exactly the point. I don't think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would trust PRC as far as they could throw them (I'm looking at your, Call Me David Cameron), because they are so obviously a nasty repressive aggressively expansionist regime that like other bullies will respond best to being punched on the nose hard and often.
The problem is you can build an island 12 miles off-shore of your 'natural' territory, then claim it with its 12 mile national territory, then build another island 12 miles off the first one, repeat, repeat.
Obviously at some point there are going to be practical limitations to building artifical islands, but even so...
At the same time, half of Holland is land reclaimed from below the sea, and no-one is worried about Dutch encroachment into the North Sea.
TBH the Netherlands aren't building islands (or polders, in this case) in a contested area.
Yes. That is exactly the point. I don't think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would trust PRC as far as they could throw them (I'm looking at your, Call Me David Cameron), because they are so obviously a nasty repressive aggressively expansionist regime that like other bullies will respond best to being punched on the nose hard and often.
The islands and the sea is claimed by several parties, and China who may lack carriers can use a island as a ideal base to intimidate and enforce there claim on the land.
And a runway can provide a large threat radius. Alot wider than 24km.... Several hundred km radius that you can in theory reach + the range a guided weapon has adds up to a few hundred too at longest ranges and weapons.
That one base can in tehory effect at wide circle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 13:53:12
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2015/10/29 13:51:43
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Think how much reef they have destroyed, and future pollution from the base will destroy. Where are the Sea Shepherds to go throw stink bombs?
China has no legitimate claim to islands so far from its shores it isn't funny. Especially since until they decided to enlarge them, there wasn't enough island to even live on. Of all the nations surrounding these islands, China should be the last one to realistically have a claim. That's like the US building an island off of somewhere in the Persian Gulf and claiming it as ours and everyone else should stay away.
Screw off we will sail our ships where we want in neutral waters which this is.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
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2015/10/29 15:15:58
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Col. Dash wrote: Think how much reef they have destroyed, and future pollution from the base will destroy. Where are the Sea Shepherds to go throw stink bombs?
Dude. The Chinese navy would shoot the gak out of that fething Greenpeace loser.
Col. Dash wrote: That's like the US building an island off of somewhere in the Persian Gulf and claiming it as ours and everyone else should stay away.
But...then we could just claim all of the oil underneath it as our own and stop acting like we give a damn about the region... Let's do it!
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2015/10/29 15:30:36
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Col. Dash wrote: Think how much reef they have destroyed, and future pollution from the base will destroy. Where are the Sea Shepherds to go throw stink bombs?
Dude. The Chinese navy would shoot the gak out of that fething Greenpeace loser.
Remember kids. Thrift store clothing, 100% recycled protest signs and a can-do attitude do not stop missile strikes!
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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2015/10/29 15:32:39
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Col. Dash wrote: Think how much reef they have destroyed, and future pollution from the base will destroy. Where are the Sea Shepherds to go throw stink bombs?
Dude. The Chinese navy would shoot the gak out of that fething Greenpeace loser.
Remember kids. Thrift store clothing, 100% recycled protest signs and a can-do attitude do not stop missile strikes!
Nah, they wouldn't waste missiles doing what a .50 caliber could do for 1/100th the cost.
"Sea Shepherd? What Sea Shepherd? You have no evidence that it existed..."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 15:33:00
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2015/10/29 15:51:05
Subject: Re:Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
There are going to be problems once China actually stations aircraft on the new islands they built and starts flying patrols over the area. Their approach to seabasing, "We build the islands, we own the islands, thusly we have the natural right to extend our maritime borders", is fascinatingly capitalistic in its nature. Kind of interesting coming from a post-communist state with pretty centralized power structures.
China has historically been very aggressive when it has power. All its neighbors know this.
China's a peace loving nation, always has been. It's those pig dog Yankee imperials who cause all the world's problems. America invented asbestos and Jar Jar Binks. And I'm not saying that because my government (Britain) is reliant on Chinese money for new infrastructure projects. Not at all... China is very generous. A great nation...
I love Chairman Mao. Wish he had been my father.
Spoiler:
Help me, Frazz. the UK is now a Chinese puppet. They're watching everyone. Get me out of here
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deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/10/29 15:58:56
Subject: Re:Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Col. Dash wrote: Think how much reef they have destroyed, and future pollution from the base will destroy. Where are the Sea Shepherds to go throw stink bombs?
Dude. The Chinese navy would shoot the gak out of that fething Greenpeace loser.
Remember kids. Thrift store clothing, 100% recycled protest signs and a can-do attitude do not stop missile strikes!
But it can stop bullets.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2015/10/29 16:09:25
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
There are going to be problems once China actually stations aircraft on the new islands they built and starts flying patrols over the area. Their approach to seabasing, "We build the islands, we own the islands, thusly we have the natural right to extend our maritime borders", is fascinatingly capitalistic in its nature. Kind of interesting coming from a post-communist state with pretty centralized power structures.
China has historically been very aggressive when it has power. All its neighbors know this.
China's a peace loving nation, always has been. It's those pig dog Yankee imperials who cause all the world's problems. America invented asbestos and Jar Jar Binks. And I'm not saying that because my government (Britain) is reliant on Chinese money for new infrastructure projects. Not at all... China is very generous. A great nation...
I love Chairman Mao. Wish he had been my father.
Spoiler:
Help me, Frazz. the UK is now a Chinese puppet. They're watching everyone. Get me out of here
Yes, yes we are. I applaud your love for Chairman Mao, keep up the good work.
The island issue of who owns the South China Sea/ South Sea/ West Philippine Sea is really complicated because the historical borders between a lot of the East Asian countries has been rather fluid. China, Taiwan, and Korea have been the same country for large portions of their history and are closely linked to Japan and Vietnam. These countries all have claims on islands that they have owned or controlled in the past and in some cases have thousands of years of grudges against each other. For example, China and Vietnam who have hated each other since we invaded them at around 100 B.C., fought over the Paracel islands in 1974. More recently there was the Diaoyu Island/ Senkaku Island where we disagreed over the control of some uninhabited islands that we both had a history of claiming.
This man-made islands are basically China's method of marking out what they already believe to be their territory. They found a loop hole in international law and decided to abuse the hell out of it.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/10/29 17:32:40
Subject: Angry China shadows U.S. warship near man-made islands
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You have to admit its a pretty clever loophole.
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