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Buttery Commissar has a point.

The whole "what the feth just happened?" can really throw even the most elucid of individuals. It's kinda less comfort zone ish (aside from your 'defences' are maybe lowered) but it's more like a case of your brain completely failing to process what happened in a short timeframe.

Eventually the brain ends up catching up, usually by then it's too late.

There's a reason people say, "I'm stunned." :p

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Being treated badly, unexpectedly, and thrown out of your comfort zone, is how donkey-caves get away with being donkey-caves. There's often a psychological reaction of "Did that just happen? No? Yes? Err, what?" and unless you are a trained professional or an extraordinarily forward person, the vast majority of the time people will get away with abusing your trust the first time.
Especially in a "safe" environment that you chose to visit like a hobby store, where you expect a social camaraderie from fellow gamers.

Instead of "Fool me once..." Consider, "Jerk me about once..."

And yet, I keep hearing the same victimhood stories overand over again from some posters in this thread. Someone's always making them uncomfortable, being creepy, or paying them unwanted attention. How about people take some responsibility for their own safety? This incessant need to feel safe and secure is the root of totalitarianism: the guarantee of security at the sacrifice of personal freedom.

How do YOU propose people keep themselves safe? After the knife incident at my former FLGS, I got a concealed weapons permit because I had that option available to me. Not that many want to start problems with me at 6' 7". Not everyone is as big as me or live in a location where concealed carry is an option. Some people do everything they are supposed to and then some and are still victimized. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't mean they did anything wrong. Female gamers shouldn't have to have an escort to go anywhere, and as far as I'm concerned FLGS's have an obligation to create a friendly, safe environment as my former FLGS tried to do. It doesn't mean things can't and won't happen, but it reduces the chances. You can't control another person's behavior either. Being a Donkey Cave to everyone in order to prevent being a victim is a poor solution as well. Really interested in knowing what socialably acceptable and legally acceptable measures YOU think everyone should be employing to keep safe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Buttery Commissar has a point.

The whole "what the feth just happened?" can really throw even the most elucid of individuals. It's kinda less comfort zone ish (aside from your 'defences' are maybe lowered) but it's more like a case of your brain completely failing to process what happened in a short timeframe.

Eventually the brain ends up catching up, usually by then it's too late.

There's a reason people say, "I'm stunned." :p

I agree with Buttery and you. And people should NOT be blamed for having that reaction. We all have that reaction to something at some time or another.

 NorseSig wrote:


How do YOU propose people keep themselves safe? After the knife incident at my former FLGS, I got a concealed weapons permit because I had that option available to me. Not that many want to start problems with me at 6' 7". Not everyone is as big as me or live in a location where concealed carry is an option. Some people do everything they are supposed to and then some and are still victimized. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't mean they did anything wrong. Female gamers shouldn't have to have an escort to go anywhere, and as far as I'm concerned FLGS's have an obligation to create a friendly, safe environment as my former FLGS tried to do. It doesn't mean things can't and won't happen, but it reduces the chances. You can't control another person's behavior either. Being a Donkey Cave to everyone in order to prevent being a victim is a poor solution as well. Really interested in knowing what socialably acceptable and legally acceptable measures YOU think everyone should be employing to keep safe?

Keep your head up, don't stare at your feet. Look at people when you first enter a room. Make eye contact. Be aware of your surroundings. If you're uncomfortable, remove yourself from a situation. Don't be afraid to be seen as rude and speak up if something bothers you. Use the fething buddy system. Any of these sound like a possibility?

Use a little critical thinking, dude. Obviously, I wasn't referring to someone pulling a knife out and threatening others with bodily harm. How rare is that in a gaming store? It's this "wilting violet" mentality where we ignore our surroundings, choose to be passive witnesses, and expect others to be responsible for making our experiences in life as painless as possible. An FLGS owner screams profanities, so I'll just keep shopping and pretend to ignore it. A creepy guy follows me around at a con, so I'll just try and politely rebuff him instead of possibly getting a (larger) friend or maybe security to ask him to stop. Some dude breaks my models and chuckles about it, but I just quietly accept his actions because I don't want to disrupt a game. This is what I'm talking about.

Also, good on you for getting a CCW. I hope you carry it responsibly every time you leave your home.

 the_Armyman wrote:

Keep your head up, don't stare at your feet. Look at people when you first enter a room. Make eye contact. Be aware of your surroundings. If you're uncomfortable, remove yourself from a situation. Don't be afraid to be seen as rude and speak up if something bothers you. Use the fething buddy system. Any of these sound like a possibility?

Use a little critical thinking, dude. Obviously, I wasn't referring to someone pulling a knife out and threatening others with bodily harm. How rare is that in a gaming store? It's this "wilting violet" mentality where we ignore our surroundings, choose to be passive witnesses, and expect others to be responsible for making our experiences in life as painless as possible. An FLGS owner screams profanities, so I'll just keep shopping and pretend to ignore it. A creepy guy follows me around at a con, so I'll just try and politely rebuff him instead of possibly getting a (larger) friend or maybe security to ask him to stop. Some dude breaks my models and chuckles about it, but I just quietly accept his actions because I don't want to disrupt a game. This is what I'm talking about.

Also, good on you for getting a CCW. I hope you carry it responsibly every time you leave your home.

You do realize that not everyone is, or can be as much of an alpha male as you apparently are, right?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

You do realize that not everyone is, or can be as much of an alpha male as you apparently are, right?

That's.. Got nothing to do with being an alpha male. What army an is talking about is showing some confidence and standing up for yourself . And I for one agree with him.

You can be assertive without being a bellend. You can stand your ground without being hostile. And you can make a point without being aggressive.

And anyone can do it.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

Keep your head up, don't stare at your feet. Look at people when you first enter a room. Make eye contact. Be aware of your surroundings. If you're uncomfortable, remove yourself from a situation. Don't be afraid to be seen as rude and speak up if something bothers you. Use the fething buddy system. Any of these sound like a possibility?

Use a little critical thinking, dude. Obviously, I wasn't referring to someone pulling a knife out and threatening others with bodily harm. How rare is that in a gaming store? It's this "wilting violet" mentality where we ignore our surroundings, choose to be passive witnesses, and expect others to be responsible for making our experiences in life as painless as possible. An FLGS owner screams profanities, so I'll just keep shopping and pretend to ignore it. A creepy guy follows me around at a con, so I'll just try and politely rebuff him instead of possibly getting a (larger) friend or maybe security to ask him to stop. Some dude breaks my models and chuckles about it, but I just quietly accept his actions because I don't want to disrupt a game. This is what I'm talking about.

Also, good on you for getting a CCW. I hope you carry it responsibly every time you leave your home.

You do realize that not everyone is, or can be as much of an alpha male as you apparently are, right?

While you dont necessarily have to be a dick, he has a point.

People will walk all over you in life if you let them, and some people do let this stuff happen to them.

Does that mean grab the guy up by the collar and pin him to the wall? No. But you shouldn't be afraid to tell a jerk at the store to buzz off, or get help in a bad situation, or just straight up tell someone "Hey your behavior is completely unacceptable as a business owner."

I used to be extremely passive as well, but over time I learned that having a little spine and not putting up with gak will go a long way toward improving your life

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

Keep your head up, don't stare at your feet. Look at people when you first enter a room. Make eye contact. Be aware of your surroundings. If you're uncomfortable, remove yourself from a situation. Don't be afraid to be seen as rude and speak up if something bothers you. Use the fething buddy system. Any of these sound like a possibility?

Use a little critical thinking, dude. Obviously, I wasn't referring to someone pulling a knife out and threatening others with bodily harm. How rare is that in a gaming store? It's this "wilting violet" mentality where we ignore our surroundings, choose to be passive witnesses, and expect others to be responsible for making our experiences in life as painless as possible. An FLGS owner screams profanities, so I'll just keep shopping and pretend to ignore it. A creepy guy follows me around at a con, so I'll just try and politely rebuff him instead of possibly getting a (larger) friend or maybe security to ask him to stop. Some dude breaks my models and chuckles about it, but I just quietly accept his actions because I don't want to disrupt a game. This is what I'm talking about.

Also, good on you for getting a CCW. I hope you carry it responsibly every time you leave your home.

You do realize that not everyone is, or can be as much of an alpha male as you apparently are, right?

At no time did I claim to be an alpha, but I guess that's easier to paint me as an Internet tough-guy than to make a real, substantive counterpoint to the discussion, right?

@Deadnight and MrMoustaffa: Thank you for, at the very least, understanding my point.

I've found "interesting" ways to deal with rude guys, especially during Apoc. Games.

In larger scale Apoc games I take it as an opportunity to bring out my titans, as I rarely have a chance to use them (I stopped counting after my 30th, call me a hoarder). With that much dakka at my disposal I could quite literally take out a couple thousand points per turn, which could conceivably destroy a guy's entire army in the first half of turn 1, ensuring that his only participation was to set up and then remove models.

I have a personal rule to NEVER do that, but there have been a couple guys that have been bad enough to make me bend that rule. The previously mentioned guy that took out our side's elder Titans got a full round of D-strength goodness. I swear we laid at least 25 D strength templates, and a dozen or so Basilisk rounds onto his marine army and ONLY his marine army, objectives be damned.

He threw a fit about it, but hey, we left him with a single Razorback and a Devastator squad, so he wasn't completely left out the next 4 turns. (actually all he could do was move, as we were all out of range).

The thing is, there very much are people out there that, personal human interaction really is such a chore that something that many of us (myself included) take for granted, like making eye contact, is near impossible to do.

Simply telling these kinds of people to do that isn't very productive.

Yes, paying attention to your surroundings isn't an alpha thing to do, it's just a good habit to have.

As I read what armyman typed, to me, it read like a pretty alpha thing, over-simplifying actions that doesn't account for the variations in human personalities and "abilities"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The thing is, there very much are people out there that, personal human interaction really is such a chore that something that many of us (myself included) take for granted, like making eye contact, is near impossible to do.

Simply telling these kinds of people to do that isn't very productive.

Yes, paying attention to your surroundings isn't an alpha thing to do, it's just a good habit to have.

As I read what armyman typed, to me, it read like a pretty alpha thing, over-simplifying actions that doesn't account for the variations in human personalities and "abilities"

Okay, then don't make eye contact, but do all those other things I said. If you're an introvert, have a friend who isn't. If you don't have any friends, buy A LOT of product at your FLGS so the owner knows you by name and will make sure you're taken care of if someone's giving you a problem. If you're tiny and weak, hang with a group of friends or one REALLY big one. Make up for your own shortcomings with common sense and a little help from other people.

Keep your head up, don't stare at your feet. Look at people when you first enter a room. Make eye contact. Be aware of your surroundings. If you're uncomfortable, remove yourself from a situation. Don't be afraid to be seen as rude and speak up if something bothers you. Use the fething buddy system. Any of these sound like a possibility?

I personally have never had a problem with this myself after high school (went to a really crummy one where certain people could do whatever they wanted and if you didn't let them you were facing suspension or expoltion so I just don't tolerate it now). I have seen people try to push others around in gamestores, and I just don't let that kind of thing go on. If no one is willing to stand up for or back the person being harassed, I will. No one deserves that kind of treatment. If what the person is doing can be construed as sexual harassment and said harasser swings at me, then I have no problem picking up and hurling the person out the door or through the storefront glass like a lawn dart.

These are not bad suggestions. Though sometimes the situation can change before you have a chance to do anything about it.

Its also by nature of where yo actually are. your in a store, if you go off on someone, even provoked, the owner/staff are also gonna think you did something.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Being treated badly, unexpectedly, and thrown out of your comfort zone, is how donkey-caves get away with being donkey-caves. There's often a psychological reaction of "Did that just happen? No? Yes? Err, what?" and unless you are a trained professional or an extraordinarily forward person, the vast majority of the time people will get away with abusing your trust the first time.
Especially in a "safe" environment that you chose to visit like a hobby store, where you expect a social camaraderie from fellow gamers.

Instead of "Fool me once..." Consider, "Jerk me about once..."

And yet, I keep hearing the same victimhood stories overand over again from some posters in this thread. Someone's always making them uncomfortable, being creepy, or paying them unwanted attention. How about people take some responsibility for their own safety? This incessant need to feel safe and secure is the root of totalitarianism: the guarantee of security at the sacrifice of personal freedom.

Wow, get a grip man. Folk have come in here and shared some pretty personal stuff, they don't need someone giving them crap for it.

Am I doing it right, are you feeling sufficiently stood up to yet, or does your utter hypocrisy need to be further pointed out?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Its also by nature of where yo actually are. your in a store, if you go off on someone, even provoked, the owner/staff are also gonna think you did something.

Well, for starters, you don't "go off on someone." Believe it or not, you can have a calm, non-threatening conversation with someone as long as both parties are mature adults. Sometimes this isn't possible, in which case that will become clear very quickly. At that point, you attempt to de-escalate and walk away. This isn't the streets, it's a gaming store. 99.9% of the time, nothing will happen to us when we're firm but civil.

Guys, I feel we should just agree to disagree. This topic has swung from amusing, to sad, to disturbing and back again.
Don't end up getting it shut down by the age old circular argument about where the responsibility lies.
The answer is both halves, but it's very hard to recondition either. It's not something that can be laid to rest overnight.

To clarify; When I said "safe" I was not referring to this recent term of avoidance and secure / designated spaces, I just meant "your home turf", a game store if you're a gamer. Like if I were a librarian, I'd feel comfortable in a library and confused in a bike shop.

Since the thread is going to be locked here soon anyway, I figure I'll toss my hat in:

Store I used to go to where I grew up had been there since the dawn of time (I'm pretty sure Jesus played RT there) and run by a guy who I'm fairly sure played soccer with god (he was that old).

The place was/is run down; it's got a great selection of so many different games and books and novelty items, but man...it's stuck in the 70s mid-renovation. The game room in the back isn't too bad, outside of the no-ceiling, paper-thin-walls, bathroom they have - which offers NO sort of buffer between what people do in there and the actual room. Zero ventilation means that...well, you all get the idea.

Had bad run ins with CCG players there, repeatedly. Used to play Warmachine back when it first came out and was at the store 3-4 nights a week. Turns out, the CCG (Yu-Gi-Oh, MtG, Pokemon,etc.) folks had the run of the place and no one ever told the rest of us. So, more often than not, we'd be in the middle of a game when the regiment of unwashed card players showed up. Had repeat issues with guys who tried to take our table between games, move our stuff when we weren't looking, even had a pair of kids try and walk out with parts of one of my armies. And yet, the owner gave zero feths, because CCG's made for a LOT of his revenue.

As for dealing with difficult situations, I get why it's hard; you're trained from birth to apologize and that it's better to just be a victim than do anything about what's going on. For some, it's literally a crippling experience because of whatever reason - something I pity, I guess. I can't sympathize because I've never had that issue - if you're a feth, I'll call you one. Not trying to sound all 'alpha male' but that's the way I am.

There's a difference between incapable of defending yourself and refusing to. I will help the former, the latter deserves every gakky experience they get.

Yeah let's move on from throwing people through glass windows and what not.

 motyak wrote:
Yeah let's move on from throwing people through glass windows and what not.

In my defense the incident didn't happen at the FLGS, it was at a bar and everyone was really drunk.

If we get to share stories from bars, I've got some real doozies. I'd start with a little gem I like to call "That's Not a Burrito."

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If we get to share stories from bars, I've got some real doozies. I'd start with a little gem I like to call "That's Not a Burrito."

I realize that might be off topic, but I have to hear that. So just replace all references to BAR with GAME STORE.

 motyak wrote:
Yeah let's move on from throwing people through glass windows and what not.

ALL GLORY TO OUR OVERLORDS.


In keeping with Motyak's request:

There was one time at ++LOCATION REDACTED, GLORY IN HIS NAME++ we were playing ++GAME NAME REDACTED, SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE++ and the guy I was playing was acting like a ++ALSO REDACTED, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, GUARD IT WELL++. So I decided to use my ++STILL REDACTED, HOPE IS THE LAST STEP ON THE ROAD TO DISAPPOINTMENT++ to counter his ++REALLY, STILL REDACTED, DON'T TAKE CANDY FROM BABIES++. My opponent got so mad he ++SUPER DUPER REDACTED, SO REDACTED WE CAN'T EVEN COME UP WITH A QUOTE++.

Needless to say, I'll never eat chinese food while playing ++NICE TRY, MEGA-ULTIMATE REDACTED++.

Well that escalated quickly

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Guys, I feel we should just agree to disagree. This topic has swung from amusing, to sad, to disturbing and back again.
Don't end up getting it shut down by the age old circular argument about where the responsibility lies.
The answer is both halves, but it's very hard to recondition either. It's not something that can be laid to rest overnight.

To clarify; When I said "safe" I was not referring to this recent term of avoidance and secure / designated spaces, I just meant "your home turf", a game store if you're a gamer. Like if I were a librarian, I'd feel comfortable in a library and confused in a bike shop.

I agree that it's unfair to expect everyone to be emotionally ready to get in a confrontation with an aggressor. However, that's where the community as a whole can support each other. Some -sadly few, but some- of these stories contain the sorts of bystanders who step in when someone is being abused by a fellow gamer. If those who are emotionally able to stand up do so, the entire hobby will be a better place for all.

Note that by "Stand up" I don't mean "get into it". I mean firmly let the aggressor know that they are being in appropriate and will not be tolerated.

I must be lucky, or maybe I just don't play at stores often enough, but I'd never really had any bad experiences playing at stores. I did have one time where a guy was measuring too long for charging and saying "oops, let me gotta nudge them in a little bit so they can be in melee combat", that resulted in an eyeroll or 3 from me and a mental note not to play him again.

I also don't understand the bathing thing. I can kind of understand it a little bit if you're at a con and oversleep and are about to miss a game session you paid for.. but even then, if there's a risk of that happening to you, you can take a quickie shower before bed.

And please, for all that is good and holy in the world, do not attempt cover up your stank with patchouli.

 Necros wrote:
I must be lucky, or maybe I just don't play at stores often enough, but I'd never really had any bad experiences playing at stores. I did have one time where a guy was measuring too long for charging and saying "oops, let me gotta nudge them in a little bit so they can be in melee combat", that resulted in an eyeroll or 3 from me and a mental note not to play him again.

I'm sorta in this camp, too. Gamers are goobs, and there are always a few that end up being goobier than most, but it's all just harmless social anxiety and awkwardness. A couple people who want to talk a bit to intimately about their little plastic dudes and fantasy worlds, a few people who should probably invest in a couple new t-shirts a size or two larger, or ultra-competitive nerdgasmers who talk a little too loudly about their armylist or deck. It's sometimes annoying but rarely disruptive.

I also don't understand the bathing thing. I can kind of understand it a little bit if you're at a con and oversleep and are about to miss a game session you paid for.. but even then, if there's a risk of that happening to you, you can take a quickie shower before bed.

It only takes one guy or girl to really get the place funked up. The fact that most game store owners aren't particularly tidy just seems to add to the fragrant stew.

And please, for all that is good and holy in the world, do not attempt cover up your stank with patchouli.

And pine tree shaped car fresheners are NOT a substitute for bathing and deodorant. If anything it makes the smell worse. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little remembering this...

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Necros wrote:
I must be lucky, or maybe I just don't play at stores often enough, but I'd never really had any bad experiences playing at stores. I did have one time where a guy was measuring too long for charging and saying "oops, let me gotta nudge them in a little bit so they can be in melee combat", that resulted in an eyeroll or 3 from me and a mental note not to play him again.

I'm sorta in this camp, too. Gamers are goobs, and there are always a few that end up being goobier than most, but it's all just harmless social anxiety and awkwardness. A couple people who want to talk a bit to intimately about their little plastic dudes and fantasy worlds, a few people who should probably invest in a couple new t-shirts a size or two larger, or ultra-competitive nerdgasmers who talk a little too loudly about their armylist or deck. It's sometimes annoying but rarely disruptive.

I also don't understand the bathing thing. I can kind of understand it a little bit if you're at a con and oversleep and are about to miss a game session you paid for.. but even then, if there's a risk of that happening to you, you can take a quickie shower before bed.

It only takes one guy or girl to really get the place funked up. The fact that most game store owners aren't particularly tidy just seems to add to the fragrant stew.

You forgot to mention the buzzkill who always insists everybody let him in on their games or demands They play with him. We got this one guy everybody humors, but if anything is going on that doen't focus on him, he begins insiting people play board games with him, then if that deon't work he starts badmouthing what ever other people are doing. We also have another guy who is similar, but with RPGs.

The RPG guy completly ruined Halloween this past year. We were going to have a boardgame and wargame night, and he insisted people let him run a World War Cthulu campain, then he ran a session where there was no horror, just a lame rambling story about spys hanging out in a european village.

Re. The Stank, I found it was quite often neatly dressed guys dropping in after work on the way home for a quick game that brought the funk. I felt for them, as there's not a quick answer there.
IIRC The Grid in Doncaster has a shower room for this very reason, and it's maintained very well.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Re. The Stank, I found it was quite often neatly dressed guys dropping in after work on the way home for a quick game that brought the funk. I felt for them, as there's not a quick answer there.
IIRC The Grid in Doncaster has a shower room for this very reason, and it's maintained very well.

I imagine that the problem is no different than what a restaurant or bar could have. Smallish rooms, not usually very well ventilated, body heat builds up over an evening...with the main difference being that people in bars are too drunk to care much, and people in restaurants have a delightful curry to smell instead. If gamers want to defeat the funk, since most of us already shower every day, the next step is probably just better ventilation in shops.

The worst I had is very tame compared to these. When picking up my minis to clear the table for the RPG group coming in, one of the RPGers decided to help by grabbing several of my minis in one hand, popping one off the base. Fortunately, no lasting damage was incurred, and the other gamers in the group yelled at him for me. He apologized, and I went on my way.

Always put a finish on your minis, boys and girls. Protect your painted minis!