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It's one of the worst units in the game.

"Dante is a beast and I do respect the hell out of him"

Lulz. Dante is a terrible LoW.

" If Blood angels won't engage and play to their strongest suit"

I never said don't engage. And sadly, assault is no longer the BA strongest suit.

Dante is an excellent character. It is just that he should be in the HQ slot. I'd actually say he's one of the only good things about that codex.

Does save space for more HQ's though...


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 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It's really hard to box in BA or DE. Orks will love you for getting so close. Again, these lists have the tools to deal with your CSM box in. I really don't see why you think trying to outmaneuver BA is going to end well.

Orks dont' love me for getting close.

Outmaneuvering Blood Angels is harder. I agree. But then you don't have to really do that. If Blood angels won't engage and play to their strongest suit, what am I worried about? Blood Angel shooting? I feel like I am pretty well equipped to meet Blood angels on their terms. Dante is a beast and I do respect the hell out of him. He's immune to my best trick for removing him so of course deserves my respect. That really is no statement on Mutilators though.


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 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

I haven't seen 'em. So we should question it. Lol. Hilarious.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In Jancoran's CAAC locals of course, where he TRULY shows his unorthodox Tactics against the bad AND the mediocre!

Prove it. Go play all the people I play and come back then. Until then, save it.

You mean where I wouldn't be allowed FW units because they're expensive and unbalanced in your mind, even after people like Peregrine proved you wrong in an almost 20 page thread, only for you to block them? Where I'm basically not allowed to take the lists I want?

I don't NEED to play your locals to know how trashy the players are. You showed that already in several CSM threads and the FW one.

I still don't understand why csm assault units should be scary to orks or ba.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks dante is any good.

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand why csm assault units should be scary to orks or ba.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks dante is any good.

To be fair, an AoBF Jugger Lord leading a unit of MoK Spawn or Bikers is pretty scary... Sure it's not Thundercav or any other hitty Deathstar levels of scary, but still not something most units want to be dancing with.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand why csm assault units should be scary to orks or ba.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks dante is any good.

To be fair, an AoBF Jugger Lord leading a unit of MoK Spawn or Bikers is pretty scary... Sure it's not Thundercav or any other hitty Deathstar levels of scary, but still not something most units want to be dancing with.

After dealing with TWC, it doesn't seem that bad at all. That's the problem with the older dexes. Their "scary" is yawn-inducing compared to the newer ones ability to lay waste or soak firepower. I'll deal with the lord and spawn/bikers at lot easier than double WK. Is Dante supposed to be good because he can tie up a Jugger Lord for a couple turns?

Dante strikes at AP2 S6 at minimum with I6. Oh, and has EW.

Mostly it is the EW that sets him as good in my book.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dante strikes at AP2 S6 at minimum with I6. Oh, and has EW.

Mostly it is the EW that sets him as good in my book.

This. He can punch on with almost anything and not only have a decent chance at winning, but a not-unreasonable chance at coming out virtually unscathed.

Will he solo a WK? No, but then, measuring a units worth against a WK isn't productive in any army but Eldar (not that it won't keep happening unfortunately).

Will he have an excellent chance at doing his job once he gets there? Yep. Does he need some help getting there? Yep. Does his moving to LOW mean you can free up HQ slots for a libby and a priest? Yep.

Besides, 2 things:

1) Why are we talking about Dante in a thread about CSM Muties?
2) How has it managed to take 4 pages to convince people that Muties are top contenders for worst unit in all of 40k? A single look at their stats and abilities should tell you that much.

Because some people hate math?

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand why csm assault units should be scary to orks or ba.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks dante is any good.

Interesting.




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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:



You mean where I wouldn't be allowed FW units because they're expensive and unbalanced in your mind, even after people like Peregrine proved you wrong....

He...proved...something did he? And you seem unaware so I will correct you. I put him on ignore two yars ago. So I dont even see his posts dude. He's too abusive. I am okay with people disagreeing. Its a forum. But when someone grows so abusive and reckless in their posts, I have to draw a line. So i did.

So I dont even know what you're talking about to be honest. I never saw any of it.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't NEED to play your locals to know how trashy the players are. .

You in fact do.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/523944.page

Thats admittedly a thread from 6th ed but someone challenged me to use mutilators in the lone wolf deep striking distraction roll before I labled them as useless. After having used them in several games (which I tqlk about in that thread), i cant say they are useless, but I also cant think of why I would take them over other options in the dex.

Too slow, too situational, too expensive for what they do and no reliable delivery system.

Deep Strike seems about as reliable as it gets without spending any points.

I think an aversion by some players to deep Striking is partly to blame for the perceptions of Mutilators. I deep strike stuff like crazy, all the time, and without fear. the Deep Strike table is quite forgiving. But I suppose if you dont posess the intestinal fortitude to make drops, then Mutilators will seem less cool to you.

I guess I'll do a battle report then. I did one actually on Christmas but it was with my son, and he was playing with the Mutilators. So there's not a lot of gain to watching that one, other than my own personal enjoyment of playing with him.

Did you read the thread I linked? Teleported them in for every game.

Also, lol at using the phrase "intestinal fortitude" in relation to a game about toy soldiers.

Even in a goofy game about fantasy war with minature plastic toys, it's still possible to be a spineless coward

yup

I think the aversion to deepstrike depends on what kind of board you play on. If it's fairly open then it becomes a much more viable strategy. If you have a lot of terrain than I understand the reluctance as the table may not be that bad, but still can hold up a lot of points in reserves at best and dusted at worst. Mutilators do well with it since they are small and fairly cheap, but still they are a slow assault unit that isn't that durable.

There are better things in the book to use than Muties, but they could be fun.

The models are straight up fugly though. If you wanted to use them, I'd suggest taking a box of Chaos Termies and a box of Chaos Spawn and make your own mutilators.

 Jancoran wrote:
Deep Strike seems about as reliable as it gets without spending any points.

I think an aversion by some players to deep Striking is partly to blame for the perceptions of Mutilators. I deep strike stuff like crazy, all the time, and without fear. the Deep Strike table is quite forgiving. But I suppose if you dont posess the intestinal fortitude to make drops, then Mutilators will seem less cool to you.

I guess I'll do a battle report then. I did one actually on Christmas but it was with my son, and he was playing with the Mutilators. So there's not a lot of gain to watching that one, other than my own personal enjoyment of playing with him.

Today, an all time low on dakkadakka was reached.
Instead of posting battle reports, tactics, math, or debating strategies, we have begun to suggest other movers of plastic/metal figures are somehow more cowardly, and this cowardice stops them from seeing greatness.

 Dtox wrote:
so yeah, I decided against getting mutilators for the time being. It was a really enticing sale, but the overwhelming amount of negative thoughts towards them made me reconsider. It'd be nice if they didnt have slow and purposeful, or if they at least had a useful reason for having it.

Depends on the sale. If they're dirt cheap, and if you like the model. You'll find use for them. I don't have any just because I can't any good deals on them. That being said. If i can find them ridiculously cheap. I'd find a use for them. Maybe next edition they'll be good, and You'll be glad you picked them up early. I know I was when I picked up spawn early in 5th, Back when everyone still assumed they were awful because of how awful they were for the longest time. Do you fancy yourself more of a collector or player? If your a collector, pick them up, at least they're kinda neat to see as part of a complete battleforce. If you plan to play competitively... why are you playing CSM?

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Deep Strike seems about as reliable as it gets without spending any points.

I think an aversion by some players to deep Striking is partly to blame for the perceptions of Mutilators. I deep strike stuff like crazy, all the time, and without fear. the Deep Strike table is quite forgiving. But I suppose if you dont posess the intestinal fortitude to make drops, then Mutilators will seem less cool to you.

I guess I'll do a battle report then. I did one actually on Christmas but it was with my son, and he was playing with the Mutilators. So there's not a lot of gain to watching that one, other than my own personal enjoyment of playing with him.

Today, an all time low on dakkadakka was reached.
Instead of posting battle reports, tactics, math, or debating strategies, we have begun to suggest other movers of plastic/metal figures are somehow more cowardly, and this cowardice stops them from seeing greatness.

I don't use deep strike much because I think it sucks. Actually, I think it doubly sucks because I think reserves suck as well. I punish heavy users of deep strike mercilessly quite often.

Martel732 wrote:

I don't use deep strike much because I think it sucks. Actually, I think it doubly sucks because I think reserves suck as well. I punish heavy users of deep strike mercilessly quite often.

Is that right? Well I certainly have no problem with you not utilizing it. =)

Akiasura wrote:
Today, an all time low on dakkadakka was reached.

Not so different than most days really

Well, i just thought it's unfair to ask for batreps with mutilators doing fine, getting this batreps than still disregard tham as garbage even when you've got no batreps to prove how outright bad they are. Just seems a bit one-sided and unfair towards poor mutilators. What do they need to do to prove their worth? Kill deathstars on their own? Catch up scatbikes even though there's literally nothing in the codex that can reliably do that on it's own?

All i want to say is that mutilators seem to be fine for csm. Another question is that csm don't have easy win buttons.

I'll try them out with my orks next year But first - a daemon slaanesh detachment with a masque.

Btw, Jancoran, i know that you like unusual stuff. Try this out: daemonettes with an instrument and a masque. Ultimate anti-deathstar/fmc.

They need to have a role they're good at, and like Warp Talons they don't have one. They can't sweep OR run, are useless as, since they can't catch up, have no range power (compared to their cousins Centurions and Obliterators), they have a VERY small squad cap, they can't get a dedicated Land Raider (and that's still a junk transport), AND to top it off they have to switch weapons each round. Couple that with the Mathhammer not being in their favor (and therefore nobody cares if you actually DO catch up to something with it), they can't even provide a real distraction.

The Mutilators were NOT doing fine. Those reports were against crap players using crap lists (Jancoran called a 6th Edition Eldar list with THREE Serpents Mechdar. He honestly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about at this point if you missed that). Also remember popping a Rhino isn't hard for many units to do, so for it to be pointed out as a feat in one game says nothing.

The fact this thread has gone on four pages to get this into your skulls when basic logic and math was presented quite honestly boggles my mind.
You want a use? They fulfill the minimum needed to get The Purge FOC for 110 points. Therefore taking two separate detachments will cost you a tax of 220 for 8 Heavy Support slots. They're basically Cultists without the Objective Secured.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


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Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

And this is where your logic fails entirely. Just because warp talons and mutilators don't work for YOUR playstyle don't mean they don't work for others. Going by math hammer and what's competitive imho is a bad way to design a list

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

And this is where your logic fails entirely. Just because warp talons and mutilators don't work for YOUR playstyle don't mean they don't work for others. Going by math hammer and what's competitive imho is a bad way to design a list

Sure, play a few games using mutilators and warp talons and tell us how it went. I say that going by mathhammer and what's competitive is the ONLY way to properly design your list if your opponents don't always bring joke lists.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i just thought it's unfair to ask for batreps with mutilators doing fine, getting this batreps than still disregard tham as garbage even when you've got no batreps to prove how outright bad they are. Just seems a bit one-sided and unfair towards poor mutilators. What do they need to do to prove their worth? Kill deathstars on their own? Catch up scatbikes even though there's literally nothing in the codex that can reliably do that on it's own?

Well, for one, its extremely hard to prove a negative. I can't prove that mutilators aren't good via batreps, because in batreps people aren't taking them at all. The batreps posted are either outdated or, quite frankly, prove the point that mutilators are bad (as seen in the one batrep from 2015).
The fact that they aren't being taken is a sign that they are bad. You rarely see drakes, bikers, raptors, spawn, plague marines, standard marines all being widely excluded from bat reps. Other unis you see occasionally but not all the time, but mutilators? Not common, not in competitive games.

Furthermore, nobody was able to provide a batrep where they do well. One guy provided one, and wildly exaggerated what they accomplished (or made it up). They didn't accomplish much in that game, chasing off one squad that already had a heldrake attack it and tanking, at best, 190 points. That was for 3 of them, btw.

As for what they need to accomplish, they need to do what is being stated they can do. Absorb enough firepower to be worth considering (200-300 points) and catch anything in melee.
Which, to be fair, we aren't seeing much of.


Keep in mind that Jancoran, despite his claims that they are good, has been unable to provide a method for getting them into CC that isn't equivalent to "dude try harder" or "gotta get that fortitude".
If he had a battle report using them against a good list, I'd be more inclined to listen to him. But he has never been able to do so, in any of the threads detailing his methods.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


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Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

And this is where your logic fails entirely. Just because warp talons and mutilators don't work for YOUR playstyle don't mean they don't work for others. Going by math hammer and what's competitive imho is a bad way to design a list

It's not a matter of Warptalons not fitting certain play styles as it is the fact that many of these so-called 'specialist' Chaos units are just plain bad...

Warptalons cost too much for what you get. They have a special ability that can't be viably used as the army lacks any form of Deep Strike mitigation, nor can they garner any proper supports from within their own army. They're too effective at cutting up MEQ's, yet fall flat against most MC's due to the prevalence of 2+ saves on them. They can't dent Deathstars as they lack any way to get ap2 into the unit, nor do they have the weight of attacks to chew through them.
The one and only unit they really shine against, T5/3+, is typically only seen in small numbers, again making their combat role a crap-shoot, as they're likely to kill off the unit and then sit around to eat a whack load of enemy bullets.

Are Talons playable? Absolutely they are, but there's no hiding the fact that they, like Mutilators, as just a bad unit.

I freely admit that I love my small unit of Talons when playing my Tzeentch Daemons! But I make no mistake that my army is highly non-competitive.
If I wanted to make it competitive, things like the Talons would absolutely need to go, alongside my Flamers who are just dead weight competitively speaking. Meanwhile, I'd need to radically alter the way I use my Pink Horrors, trim down my Tzheralds, add in the better Slaanesh/Nurgle/Khorne Dog units, etc...

Mutilators are playable. But they're still a terrible unit that simply cannot be used against the top end stuff, and functions horribly in its intended role. They simply have far too much going against them that there is no way to make them viable against the newer books, especially when they're running their more optimised lists.

I'm sure BA just don't fit my playstyle. It has nothing to do with being a codex filled with garbage. Nothing to see here. Move along.


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 koooaei wrote:
Well, i just thought it's unfair to ask for batreps with mutilators doing fine, getting this batreps than still disregard tham as garbage even when you've got no batreps to prove how outright bad they are. Just seems a bit one-sided and unfair towards poor mutilators. What do they need to do to prove their worth? Kill deathstars on their own? Catch up scatbikes even though there's literally nothing in the codex that can reliably do that on it's own?

All i want to say is that mutilators seem to be fine for csm. Another question is that csm don't have easy win buttons.

I'll try them out with my orks next year But first - a daemon slaanesh detachment with a masque.

Btw, Jancoran, i know that you like unusual stuff. Try this out: daemonettes with an instrument and a masque. Ultimate anti-deathstar/fmc.

I actually have much more faith in mathhammer than batreps. Many batreps involve suspect lists, poor decisions pushing the plastic, rules mistakes, or all three. For example, for an Eldar batrep to be relevant to me, there'd have to be 20+ scatterbikes and double WK involved.

Well, i just thought it's unfair to ask for batreps with mutilators doing fine, getting this batreps than still disregard tham as garbage even when you've got no batreps to prove how outright bad they are. Just seems a bit one-sided and unfair towards poor mutilators. What do they need to do to prove their worth? Kill deathstars on their own? Catch up scatbikes even though there's literally nothing in the codex that can reliably do that on it's own?

I'm sorry, I may have missed it, but I didn't see where Jancoran posted a Batrep. The closest thing I've seen is the thread I linked to where I talk about having used them in a few games. I would hesitate to call those battle reports though.

Of course, I'm not sure how much it really matters either. At this point it's not likely that someone who's argued as strenuously for the use of Mutilators as Jancoran has is going to hog play some battles with the intent of doing reports and then come back and say "sorry guys, my bad. I was wrong." I mean, is that something that happens on Dakka? Plus, and I don;t mean this to be offensive (seriously, I really don't), but Jancoran argues just hard enough for most of his points that he reminds me of Ailaros at times. I doubt he's really open to being wrong. I'd also like to see more of the meta he plays in. I remember someone (it may actually have been Ailaros) arguing for the use of a unit no one else thought was any good. This poster swore up and down that the unit was great and we just need to "L2P". When they finally posted a battle report about it, they were lined up against a list so sub-par that it was like it was made by a spider monkey with a mental deficiency. SO of COURSE in a meta like that, things will suddenly become "good". Not saying that's definitely the case for Jancoran, but I always wonder about that with people.

I think the most honest, unbiased review your going to get of them is in the thread I linked. My take going in was "these are trash" and my take coming out was, "these are better than I thought, but outside of this experiment, they weren't nearly good enough for me to take them over several other things in the book. Even if it's just for a distraction tactic.

There are better things in the book to use than Muties, but they could be fun.

This sums it up for me. There is almost nothing WORSE in the book (which is saying something considering how bad that book was right out of the gate), but in certain situations they CAN be fun. In a more narrative driven campaign for example, my group fought several battles using Space Hulk tiles that represented ship boardings. When you're in a cramped space and teleportation doesn't go awry, and the enemy can't escape, Muties are fun and fluffy. Slow moving and able to soak up damage with the other marines running down the hallway behind them seemed like a fluffy way to use them. They were also sent into small command bunkers that campaign.

Like I said though, these were narrative driven campaigns where the rarely wen up against anything really tough or competitive. In a more competitive meta or at tournament, I honestly can't see using them.

Edited because autocorrect made me sound even dumber than I actually am ...