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Sorry, but that is the definition of Zooming. If a Flyer does X (Zooms), it is doing Y (moving 18" up to 36"). Therefore the definition of X is Y.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
The way the rules are written can be even FURTHER rules lawyered to have another meaning.
Zooming Flyers do not allow the passengers to voluntary disembark, yes? Where does it say in Skies of Fury that they do it voluntary? I mean I could be the pilot and everyone here the passengers and I get sick of your gak so I kick you out the hatch.
And no one could prove this interpretation of mine incorrect. Because show me where it says Skies of Fury is a voluntary action on the part of the passengers. It doesn't.
Quickjager wrote: Where does it say in Skies of Fury that they do it voluntary? I mean I could be the pilot and everyone here the passengers and I get sick of your gak so I kick you out the hatch.
And no one could prove this interpretation of mine incorrect. Because show me where it says Skies of Fury is a voluntary action on the part of the passengers. It doesn't.
Its in the very first sentence of the rule:
Skies of Fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:
If it Zooms, has the Stormraven moved over 6"? Yes. Therefore the "... passengers can still disembark..."
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: Sorry, but that is the definition of Zooming. If a Flyer does X (Zooms), it is doing Y (moving 18" up to 36"). Therefore the definition of X is Y.
And you still completely ignore the rest of the Zooming Flyer rule, almost a full page. I guess when you play, your Zooming Flyers are not Hard to Hit since you say Zooming is only moving 18-36.
No I'm not. Several posters in this thread however are ignoring Skies of Fury and no one yet has given a definition for Zooming that isn't moving over 6".
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: No I'm not. Several posters in this thread however are ignoring Skies of Fury and no one yet has given a definition for Zooming that isn't moving over 6".
The entire page of rules was quoted to you, but you ignored it. Your simply stuck on the tape measure portion. A zooming flyer is that whole page of rules, not just your 18-36" argument. RAI I believe you are correct, however RAW, you have not overcome the 2 restrictions laid out by the rules. One is distance, the other is a state.
And you're stuck on the 'Its not lactose, its milk!" argument. If it overrides the definition of the word, it overrides the word.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: And you're stuck on the 'Its not lactose, its milk!" argument. If it overrides the definition of the word, it overrides the word.
Again it did not override the definition of the word Zooming.
Spoiler:
ZOOM
Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover – see opposite. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down, but limits its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase. If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.
To represent its limited manoeuvrability, a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter, it must move directly forwards in a straight line. In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again. A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain. Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming
Flyer.
Zoom, Tank Shock and Ramming
Zooming Flyers cannot Tank Shock or Ram, nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed. If a Ramming vehicle would end up underneath a Zooming Flyer, move the Ramming vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from the base of the Flyer.
Zooming and Shooting
Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.
Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as SnapShots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.
Zoom and Flat Out
A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24".
Charging Zooming Flyers
Due to their high speed (and presumably high altitude), Zooming Flyers cannot be charged.
Repairing Zooming Flyers
Some models have the ability to repair Hull Points, Immobilised or Weapon Destroyed results on vehicles. Such models can only use such abilities on a Zooming Flyer if that Flyer is a Transport and the model attempting to repair it is embarked inside it.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves. A Flyer that leaves combat airspace must Zoom back on when it returns from Ongoing Reserves, even if it has the Hover type. A Flyer cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on the same turn.
SPECIAL RULES
Zooming Flyers can choose whether or not to use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each Shooting phase. If they do, all weapons they fire that phase are treated as having the Skyfire special rule.
That is the definition of a Zooming Flyer. Tell me again how your 1 little sentence overrides all that.
Ghaz wrote: And you're stuck on the 'Its not lactose, its milk!" argument. If it overrides the definition of the word, it overrides the word.
Hypothetical question time:
Let's say that the Tau get some fancy new piece of tech that can prevent a vehicle from having the "Hard to Hit" rule. Does this also prevent the vehicle from zooming? After all, part of the definition of "Zoom" is that the vehicle gets the "Hard to Hit" rule. If a vehicle can't get "Hard to Hit" then it cannot zoom.
The other option is to view "zoom" as a state that has various properties, yet is not defined by those properties*. A rule that removes/changes one of these properties does not automatically remove/change the other properties. Similarly, a rule (Skies of Fury) that can be triggered by one of those properties (moving over 6'', when one of the properties of a zooming flyer is that it moves at least 18'') does not automatically override the other properties of a zooming flyer (such as the inability to disembark from the vehicle).
RAI, I think that Skies of Fury (and similar special rules) allow units to disembark from a zooming flyer. This is also HIWPI.
RAW, overriding one restriction does not remove all restrictions. Skies of Fury does not allow a unit to disembark from a zooming flyer, IMO.
*Alice owns 3 objects. One of those objects is destroyed. Alice does not stop being Alice simply because she no longer owns 3 objects - the statement "Alice owns 3 objects" is a description, not a definition.
"Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer."
This is the only sentence in the Zooming Rule that matters.
Skies of Fury is that "unless otherwise stated" rule in this case.
It gives permission for units to Disembark only from a Transport with this special rule that has moved more than 6" following special guidelines in how to do so.
Movement is only a qualifier for Skies of Fury to become active, and as such A unit may only disembark a Zooming Stormraven under the Skies of Fury guidelines because of its required movement.
Because you must declare what mode the flyer is in at the beginning of its. Movement phase, if it was Zooming last turn it is Still Zooming at the beginning of its current phase and thus occupants must disembark via the Skies of Fury special rule, and as Skies of Fury requires occupants to Disembark along the vehicles path, since the vehicle has not moved yet, they must disembark in place and may not disembark along the projected path of the vehicle unless disembarking happens at the vehicles end of movement. If they disembark via standard disembarking rules the flyer must then automatically have switched to hover mode.
That is how disembarking at the beginning of the Phase works for Skies of Fury.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/10 18:42:29
PPl who optimise their list as if they're heading to a tournament when in reality you're just gonna play a game for fun at your FLGS are bascially the Kanye West equivalent or 40K.
I like this. Now my guys can disembark in the shooting phase after flat-out, since skies of fury apparently overrides all restrictions as long as I move >6".
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Happyjew wrote: I like this. Now my guys can disembark in the shooting phase after flat-out, since skies of fury apparently overrides all restrictions as long as I move >6".
Actually no they can't. Because that is a different sections specifically what phase a unit can disembark. That is not overridden at all.
PPl who optimise their list as if they're heading to a tournament when in reality you're just gonna play a game for fun at your FLGS are bascially the Kanye West equivalent or 40K.
Yeah I'm really not seeing how it gets around the rule that says they can't get off during that movement mode specifically.
I mean, similar logic would say that passengers of a land raider could get out, fire a rapid/salvo/heavy weapon or run, and then assault just because assault vehicle says they can assault this turn, and I know that's not right.
Again, RAI speaking I think they should be able to hop out from the air, but on paper it looks like they screwed up the rules so that they can't.
niv-mizzet wrote: Yeah I'm really not seeing how it gets around the rule that says they can't get off during that movement mode specifically.
I mean, similar logic would say that passengers of a land raider could get out, fire a rapid/salvo/heavy weapon or run, and then assault just because assault vehicle says they can assault this turn, and I know that's not right.
Again, RAI speaking I think they should be able to hop out from the air, but on paper it looks like they screwed up the rules so that they can't.
They difference between a the assault vehicle rule and Skies of Fury is that while they both override a rule.
Assault vehicle being the ability to Disembark and Assault, assaulting is still hampered by other checks.
You can assault after disembarking a land raider, did you fire and non assault weapon after you disembarked? If so that cancels the ability to assault separate of the ability to assault after disembarking. It's a "check" that happens after disembarking.
There is nothing in place like that for Skies of Fury.
PPl who optimise their list as if they're heading to a tournament when in reality you're just gonna play a game for fun at your FLGS are bascially the Kanye West equivalent or 40K.
It's not precisely the same, but the way I see it, the raven has:
-dudes can't get out if we go faster than 6"
-dudes straight up can't get out if we're in flying mode period.
The rule just says they can get out during a move of more than 6". A similar rule on a flying transport in another codex of the same edition specifically calls out an override of the flying rule, but the stormraven doesn't. That seems like damning evidence to me.
The way the ability is described fluff-wise it sounds like they absolutely should be able to, but what can ya do?
That's all the evidence I really have, but it seems solid and I haven't seen anything that convinces me it isn't yet. If you disagree, then I guess you disagree, and we'd have to roll off.
Happyjew wrote: I like this. Now my guys can disembark in the shooting phase after flat-out, since skies of fury apparently overrides all restrictions as long as I move >6".
This is what i see as the result of one sides way of reading it.
This is just another thread where everyone plays it exactly the same, but still argue over whether its RAW or RAI like it makes a difference
"If you wait a few months, they'll pick one of the worst codexes and they'll nerf almost everything, its an abstract sort of balance, but it's the sort of balance gw likes... "
Happyjew wrote: I like this. Now my guys can disembark in the shooting phase after flat-out, since skies of fury apparently overrides all restrictions as long as I move >6".
This is what i see as the result of one sides way of reading it.
This is just another thread where everyone plays it exactly the same, but still argue over whether its RAW or RAI like it makes a difference
You are absolutely correct. RAW can be interpreted in different ways and coming up with an answer to a rules question can sometimes lead to these kind of arguments.
This rule is older than the flyer rule, GW should have updated it. The intent may have been that they can disembark in any situation but the rule doesn't allow that.
It's often pointed out that this is a permissive ruleset. If it is not specifically permitted then it is not allowed. Well, there we have it.
1) Disembarking from a Zooming flier is not permitted
2) Disembarking from a Hovering flyer that moved over 6" is not allowed
With no word does skies of fury allow a unit to disembark from a zooming flyer. It allows to disembark from a flyer moving more than 6''.
There is no rule conflict here!
A unit can disembark from a hovering flyer as long as it has not moved more than 6''. Skies of fury allows you to disembark even if the flyer moved further. Saying "zooming is moving even further than just that and therefore I can disembark" is wrong, since the BRB rules of zooming flyers is still in effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/11 11:38:21
Dozer Blades wrote: I've always played you can disembark - codex trumps BRB. Not once has it ever been an issue.
So you would be OK with KDK charging after Running via their special rule? Or models disembarking via Skies of Fury after moving Flat-out?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Dozer Blades wrote: I've always played you can disembark - codex trumps BRB. Not once has it ever been an issue.
So you would be OK with KDK charging after Running via their special rule? Or models disembarking via Skies of Fury after moving Flat-out?
KDK - which was my point, actually
The KDK Kharybdis formation places NO limits on what they can do that turn, that would normally preclude them from charging: not being in reserve, running, somehow firing a heavy or rapid fire weapon (joining an IC post deployment is the only way I can think of this) - it is rather a general but specific rule.
Given the 'claw is an assault vehicle, they already CAN assault after disembarking, any turn bar the turn they arrive from DS reserves. So with the strict suggestions above - that the codex rule must SPECIFICALLY override the rulebook - this rule would fail to do anything; it odes not state they can assault... having come in from reserves, or after having Run, or anything else.
Just blanket permission to assault after disembarking. If you deny them this, then you have conflicted with the codex rule, and the codex rule must win out.
Here, if you deny them disembarking after the vehicle moved over 6", you HAVE conflicted with the codex rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/12 07:55:13
the major difference is, that Skies of fury still makes sense, unlike this Hungry for Blood thingy.
Same with the Tau Skyray formation - the vehicle was always able to fire all weapons after moving, what was meant is that it does not need to skyfire them.
you can not deny that GW sometimes messes up their rules, but if there is a reasonable interpretation supported by RAW you have to stick to that if possible.
(There are exceptions like the rule just posted)
Since all we have is the written rules, there needs to be a good reason to extend the written rules.
You can houserule it and I would not have an issue with that (just ordered a Stormraven myself :-P), but if I played against a stranger I could not extend the rules this way, since it's just not written that way.
Keep in mind, that a SR still can move 12'' while hovering, so there is a reasonable use for that rule.
Regarding "disembarking after flat out movement": ofc no, disembarking only happens in the movement phase.
I am not saying it wouldnt make sense, its just not how it's written.
It would be very fluffy and would explain why they need to use the DS rule to land since they are so high up in the air.
Aeri wrote: And they always specificly say so, unlike skies of fury.
Case closed.
So if i try to disembark as a zooming flyer, having met the condition required to allow me to disembark according to the rule, how is that not a conflict between rulebook and codex?
Aeri wrote: And they always specificly say so, unlike skies of fury. Case closed.
So if i try to disembark as a zooming flyer, having met the condition required to allow me to disembark according to the rule, how is that not a conflict between rulebook and codex?
Seriously? The BRB rules always apply unles a codex rule overrules them. Does Skies of Fury state you can disembark after moving more than 6 inches? Yes it does. (BRB gets overruled here) Does Skies of Fury state you can disembark from a zooming flyer? No, no it does not. With no word. At all. (BRB does not get overruled!)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/12 10:29:19
"...you can not deny that GW sometimes messes up their rules, but if there is a reasonable interpretation supported by RAW you have to stick to that if possible."
So it sounds to me like you are rules lawyering. There is virtually no reason to use SoF by your interpretation.
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