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 Brother SRM wrote:
If anyone thinks this rumor has merit, they're a moron. GW wouldn't kill their golden goose.

BoLS confirms: Wulfen, Dark Angels, Fenris, BOOM.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/40k-space-wolves-wulfen-edition-confirmed.html
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/02/fenris-bombarded-new-dark-angels-art.html

Not only that we have Sad Panda saying this a long time ago this was coming. I dubbed it mini end times since its not going to result in a total retcon just a big story advancement.

Can't wait to see the new angrier edgier Tau that come out of this.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They finally really did it.

You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

Brilliant!

Why do I have a feeling a Tyranid hive fleet THE hive fleet showed up on the Farsights doorstep at the end of the Mont'ka. Now Fenris is blown up. These are dark days indeed.

That should be the tag line of this series of events Warhammer 40k: Dark Days.

THIS IS AWESOME!

So sick to death of 40k becoming wrestling. BIG FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT but nothing ever changes.

Change is good, necessary even.

About time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.

People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.

I completely agree. I had was a part owner of a comic book store when that happened. We sold a ton of Superman stuff.

You can't escape that some people will be pissed off. However, it reenergizes a whole lot more to be part of that change or give it another shot if they left. Every event brings the opportunity for new stories for people to invest their energy in their own fluff. The idea that you can't move forward because it limits older players doesn't hold weight.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.

People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.

It's true. Hopefully this isn't a portent of things to come like End Times was for WFB/AOS...

Interesting developments. A few things. The story progressing does not necessarily mean the rules will change. The dark angels are attacking the Fenris System. There is almost guaranteed to be another book in the war zone Fenris series. I expect Fenris the planet and the space wolves themselves to survive.

There are so many potential war zones in the 40k universe that they could make the 40k endtimes last at least 10 years. There are far more stories to tell in this area. The 13th crusade, the dark eldar mystery door, the fight for the black library, armageddon again, necrons vs adeptus
mechanicus on Mars, etc,etc.
There also seems to be a lot of derision of the gw fluff writing staff. I dont get this. 40K has never competed in terms of writing skill with the greats of the genre, but it has always been entertaining, now as much as ever. (I have not read Montka yet)
There have been a lot of deliberate mysteries in 40k, but after many years of waiting I think it is finally time to find out what cypher is up to.

The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.

None of any of this points to a pointsless AOS-style game.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.

People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.

How do you figure?

I got into 40k for the fluff before I ever touched a mini, and when the Newcron came out it invalidated three of my army projects at once. The 5th edition Tyranids codex sapped my will to nid. The only reason I buy minis is for the story that imbues them. Kill the story and they are worthless.

I still have all the old books, I can still reread them, but knowing the canon as I loved it is dead and will never be expanded puts a real damper on the fun.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Disagree entirely. If Fenris does actually end up getting destroyed, my prediction is that people, being the adults that they are, will shrug and move on because they're aware that fluff is fictional and it has no actual bearing on their multi-hundreds of dollars' worth of toys.

People still bought Superman merchandise when he died.

How do you figure?

I got into 40k for the fluff before I ever touched a mini, and when the Newcron came out it invalidated three of my army projects at once. The 5th edition Tyranids codex sapped my will to nid. The only reason I buy minis is for the story that imbues them. Kill the story and they are worthless.

I still have all the old books, I can still reread them, but knowing the canon as I loved it is dead and will never be expanded puts a real damper on the fun.

I find this attitude mystifying. I can understand being upset at a rules change as this may invalidate an old army, but new fluff does not invalidate old fluff. The existence of return of the king does not prevent a game set during the fellowship from being played. We all know, to quite a fine level of detail, what happened during the Horus Heresy, but that has not stopped it from being extremely popular. (Give me a new specialist games warhammer set during the war of the beard, and I will be a happy man) The more the story moves forward the more history there is to mine for game and campaign ideas.

I'm not sure I'm grasping what everyone is saying about" Becoming Formations and Detachments" or "dropping the Force Org Chart"

The game already is, and has, done that. The Force Org chart of old is now just called "Combined Arms Detachment". It's just another way to build a list if you so choose.

Now Dropping Points would be feth all dumb, though.


And Formations without points would be even worse. The only possible way that could get even remotely balanced is if each formation told us exactly what models to bring with no options to change and at that point, we're just playing chess with over $1000 dollars in pieces.

$1000 chess sets are not unheard of.

 Brother SRM wrote:
If anyone thinks this rumor has merit, they're a moron. GW wouldn't kill their golden goose.

Yes they wouldn't intentionally be killing but a) they don't neccessarily see as killing(they thought it will be printing money with AOS as well) b) they are killing it off slowly already. Sales are dropping same as FB was(which btw was still profitable. And was still one of the top selling games in USA when AOS design process started...)

Not saying they will but they could. They need to figure a way to reverse trend of decreasing sales and they don't do much in form of market research so they do what they think is right. If they thought AOS will be printing money why not similar rules in 40k as well...

It's not like 40k sales are good so no need to do anything. Those are falling same as FB was.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if GW would move to ''formations only''.
This would make perfect sense as it would be in line with the AoS treatment of Fantasy.

If they *do* use formations - and why would they when it would be restrictive to sales - then the current format as is wouldn't work.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Didn't Sad panda said that they would be a few relatively big advance in 40k, but nothing close to the End times????

Yes. No "End Times" but the story will progress this year. And here it is.

tneva82 wrote:
And was still one of the top selling games in USA when AOS design process started...

News to me; never seen any evidence of this. Pretty sure GW had said that SM alone outsold WFB as a whole.

Edit: Correction to my post:

Chikout wrote:
It wasn't space marines that outsold fantasy, it was the tactical squad box set.(apparently)

 Brother SRM wrote:
If anyone thinks this rumor has merit, they're a moron. GW wouldn't kill their golden goose.

That's some damn fine hoaxing we've got going there then with some full colour artwork in a hardback book. Amirite?

So they blew Fenris up? Oh well, not as though my army was seeing daylight again for a while.

 ShaneTB wrote:
If they *do* use formations - and why would they when it would be restrictive to sales - then the current format as is wouldn't work.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Didn't Sad panda said that they would be a few relatively big advance in 40k, but nothing close to the End times????

Yes. No "End Times" but the story will progress this year. And here it is.

tneva82 wrote:
And was still one of the top selling games in USA when AOS design process started...

News to me; never seen any evidence of this. Pretty sure GW had said that SM alone outsold WFB as a whole.

I don't see why those two numbers would be mutually exclusive?
40K (and SM in particular) was just a lot bigger than WHFB in the last years.

It wasn't space marines that outsold fantasy, it was the tactical squad box set.(apparently)

Fenris is still in one piece in the end, no need to worry.

 Gamgee wrote:
The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.

The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.

That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.

I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.

And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.

Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disappointing to see Forge World nailing the way lists should be made with the HH series whilst GW Proper flounders around with their increasingly complicated special rule on top of special rule formation nonsense.

I couldn't agree more with that statement. List building in 30k is fantastic. It still suffers a bit from the 40k level of books required as well as keeping up with releases. As much as I've enjoyed the amount of attention fw has payed towards 30k, I do worry that gw will somehow mandate some sort of formation tomfoolery into 30k.

Formations and silly detachments have ruined 40k, it's just apoc now, all, day, long. Le sigh. I still am not cynical enough to think that gw would axe points. They certainly don't require points to just gak out formations every 5 minutes. Although somehow even apoc used to at least have points for formations.

I can see them desecrating the corpse of the foc, it's already in the ground in a lot of ways seeing since 7th hit. The nicest thing about 30k is there is some level of sanity. You actually use an foc and stuff like lords of war are well reigned in.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.

The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.

That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.

I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.

And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.

Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.

There's simply too much implications in the lore that the Tau are about to get a lot more powerful and a lot larger of an Empire and with how end times is going and sad panda even said the Tau books were the first of the new plot so leading up to some big events that will shake up the 40k story a lot. Well what would shake up the Tau more than having the Ethereals killed off, Farsight Ascend to rule them, and they begin to discover the ability to use warp drives.

That or the Tau will strike out in another diction and expand a lot. Also blow for blow the Tau came out of the campaign with 4 more planets than the 1 they lost. Also they can already get through the fire with the shields they are inventing so it took them all of a few weeks to start adapting. The Tau don't stop adapting ever. The only thing they underestimated was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and there is an Ad Mech Forgeworld in striking distance for a Tau campaign if they go back west.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The Tau are studying warp tech, the FSE is fighting what might be the largest hive fleet yet, there is a matter of Tau revenge for lighting the damocles gulf on fire, and the prophecy of Farsight being one of the only hopes for the galaxy and being helped by the Grey Knights and or Inquisition to try and resist chaos.

The Tau won't be crawling out of the Damocles sector for a good long while. The Ethereals have to figure out what to do now that the driving personality behind the Empire was assassinated, they lost a significant amount of troops to the Imperial retaliation, and after Prefectia their advance is stopped and the Imperium is dug in through the Gilded Worlds. The Tau Empire proper is going to be sitting on its hands or going after softer tsrgets than the Imperium for a while.

That, and setting the Gulf on fire would probably make anyone sensible pause and go back to the drawing board, especially as that was done after they got their first real glimpse on how big, spiteful, and powerful the Imperium is.

I actually could see a Tau (Farsight) and Ultramarines team up, as much as I hate to admit it. Marneus Calgar would rather have the comparably quiet Xenos neighbours of Farsight than a large Hive Fleet barreling down on Macragge again. It is the Ultramarines backyard, after all, and it's not like Imperial/Ultramarine cooperation with the Tau is unheard of if the situation is dire enough.

And if the largest tyranid hive fleet to date doesn't draw the attention of the Chapter that literally hates them the most, I'm going to be surprised.

Though they will probably take the opportunity to off a few captains, and either Calgar or Sicarius.

There's simply too much implications in the lore that the Tau are about to get a lot more powerful and a lot larger of an Empire and with how end times is going and sad panda even said the Tau books were the first of the new plot so leading up to some big events that will shake up the 40k story a lot. Well what would shake up the Tau more than having the Ethereals killed off, Farsight Ascend to rule them, and they begin to discover the ability to use warp drives.

That or the Tau will strike out in another diction and expand a lot. Also blow for blow the Tau came out of the campaign with 4 more planets than the 1 they lost. Also they can already get through the fire with the shields they are inventing so it took them all of a few weeks to start adapting. The Tau don't stop adapting ever. The only thing they underestimated was the Adeptus Mechanicus, and there is an Ad Mech Forgeworld in striking distance for a Tau campaign if they go back west.

Prefectia and Agrellan were the only two worth noting. The other two were steamrolled.

And funnily enough, there is an Admech and Red Scorpions versus Tau book coming out sooner or later from FW...

The Tau have been experimenting on warp technology for ages. They can't wrap their heads around it due to the sheer fact it requires something they do not possess, understand, or even really acknowledge - the ability to access and use the warp. They have auxiliaries that are capable of doing so, but the Tau have a overwhelming sense of self superiority, and I can imagine it will never even occur to them to plug in auxiliaries like Navigators. And that is even if the auxiliaries can be used in such a capacity.

And really, the planets the Tau took are inconsequential to the Imperium. They skipped over Voltoris after they got beaten there. The only reason why the Imperium cares about Prefectia was because of the death of Severax (which prompted the Imperial response) and the fact it meant they would have to bolster the worlds that are literally made out of gold, silver, and other precious metals.

And the Tau are adapting to the fire, but it was stated it would take a long time to put the new shields on enough of the fleet to matter. And on top of that, what waits directly on the other side of the Gulf is not the Imperium, but the Farsight Enclaves - the splinter group that is still on the Empire's list of things they need to kill off.

The implications at the end of the Montka book are that the Tau, while technically winning the battle, are reeling from the smack down they received. Agrellan, other than one city, is now useless. Many higher up commanders are dead, Shadowsun is crippled, Aun'va is gone, and their advance has ground to a halt. There are turbulent times ahead, as the Empire is shaken to the core at the retaliation the Imperium delivered, and they haven't even delivered the news that the Supreme Ethereal was assassinated.

There are going to be more supplements, but few of them will have to do with the Tau.

Besides, the Taus fluff has always been that they are moving towards a brighter future. It's part of the reason their fluff gets so much hate, is because they are shown to be on the rise while the rest of the galaxy declines.

And before you think that means that the Empire is going to grow into some huge force, remember - The Imperium has had more powerful foes and Xenos races rise and fall within the last ten thousand years. And, as stated In the 7th fluff book, the Imperiums borders have never been larger, its forces more powerful.

And everything is still going to gak.

The next campaign will probably be resolving the Fenris plot line for now, the next will involve whatever two books they are releasing next, or whatever xenos race they are releasing next plus space marines to push copies.

Who knows. dark Eldar and Salamanders, maybe. :p.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:


I think it had a lot more to do with AOS rules and, less importantly, subsequent world (a total reboot which, let's be honest, wasn't deep or interesting), than End of Times itself. Had EoT ended with the Empire crippled, unified Elves and Undead and O&g + OK, I doubt there would be a lot of people who would had quit. There's a way to advance the storyline, even significantly, without basically restarting at 0.

Completely agree - there was no reason to go nuclear on the old world. They would have been far better moving the storyline on but not destroying the world. I imagine that they will just advance the storyline in 40k. They won't destroy the entire setting, advance it 10,000 years, merge a bunch of armies, have Necrons ally with the Imperium, and introduce a new army as the main faction around everything is based.

 ShaneTB wrote:


News to me; never seen any evidence of this. Pretty sure GW had said that SM alone outsold WFB as a whole.

Edit: Correction to my post:

Chikout wrote:
It wasn't space marines that outsold fantasy, it was the tactical squad box set.(apparently)

I didn't say FB outsold 40k? Or since when "one of the top selling" means "the top selling"?

There's public charts that show that in 2012 40k was 1st, FB 3rd. Year or two later FB was STILL 5th.

Just 'cause marines outsell FB doesn't mean every single game outsells FB. Top selling games in USA contains more than 1st. After all I specified plural. GameS.

And who thinks 3rd best selling game would really run deficit? GW would be pretty damned bad that if they have game that is 3rd best sold in USA and still manages to cost money or alternatively USA market is TOTALLY out of whack to rest of the world. So there goes "FB was costing more than it gave!".

AOS was designed not because FB was not profitable but because it didn't sell as much as marines. Being 1st and 3rd isn't good enough for GW. GW wanted FB to sell like marines as well as marines selling as well as marines.

And while it's true that FB sales were falling and therefore GW had motivation to try to figure something that doesn't mean 40k is safe because their sales are good. 40k sales aren't growing or even staying same(and the way western economy system goes same sales isn't good enough. Companies need to grow) but decreasing. Sure 40k sales have still buffer since they started higher but unless GW figures way to reverse it it's going to reach where FB sales were before AOS decision sooner or later...

2012 sales. 40k/FB: 100/20
2015 sales. 90/18

That is roughly what it's looking. Obviously numbers are made up as is ratios but point is _both_ are suffering. 40k simply has bigger headstart to begin with. Either way GW isn't happy about current situation. No company in this age is unless they are steadily INCREASING their profit. Not stay same and definitely not shrinking.

What steps GW will take to recover 40k sales is of course another thing. With luck they don't do AOS style(then again for 2nd ed player like me that's least of my worries)

willb2064 wrote:

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:


I think it had a lot more to do with AOS rules and, less importantly, subsequent world (a total reboot which, let's be honest, wasn't deep or interesting), than End of Times itself. Had EoT ended with the Empire crippled, unified Elves and Undead and O&g + OK, I doubt there would be a lot of people who would had quit. There's a way to advance the storyline, even significantly, without basically restarting at 0.

Completely agree - there was no reason to go nuclear on the old world. They would have been far better moving the storyline on but not destroying the world. I imagine that they will just advance the storyline in 40k. They won't destroy the entire setting, advance it 10,000 years, merge a bunch of armies, have Necrons ally with the Imperium, and introduce a new army as the main faction around everything is based.

See, to me, that reads as "they won't destroy the entire setting, just destroy the entire setting". You can't fundamentally alter multiple substantial aspects of a fiction and then claim "naw naw, see, it's still 40K 'cos the books still have "Warhammer 40K" on the cover, right there see?". Whatevs, if the folk who want story advancement feel like killing off 40K as well have at it, because why learn from either recent(like, last year) or older history("yeah man, lets advance the Battletech storyline, it's so boring, I think Clan Invasion sounds super cool oh god what is this why why what have we unleashed")?

Actually I think WHFB probably wasn't profitable by the end.

If we assume it accounted for 40% of GW's costs, which is reasonable given the size of the range was similar to 40K, and 20% of sales, which is reasonable given that 40K is a lot more popular,.. if these assumptions are roughly correct, the implications are clear.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Actually I think WHFB probably wasn't profitable by the end.

If we assume it accounted for 40% of GW's costs, which is reasonable given the size of the range was similar to 40K, and 20% of sales, which is reasonable given that 40K is a lot more popular,.. if these assumptions are roughly correct, the implications are clear.

Even if that WERE case that wasn't likely the case when AOS was devised. That or GW has something seriously wrong with themselves if 3rd best selling game is still making loss.

Was it unprofitable 2014-2015? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not convinced especially as the big reason why it had dropped of from top selling games was the abysmal support(no surprise since development strength was directed to AOS). Had there been better support sales would have been up. It's not like there wasn't demand like wood elves and initial end time releases showed. Give a good product and people buy.

(also last few years FB costs were pretty close to zero being already AOS costs)

Also just 'cause range is roughly same size doesn't mean resources directed is same. Quality costs. 40k support was still a) bigger b) better.